[Orpheus]

oh..... there's more.... i can think of the following off the top of my head:

1. Cardas: golden ratio--how the hell does some magical ratio affect electrical properties!?
2. Nordost: propogation speed as referenced to the speed of light--pretty much the same as VD's claim of "speed of light" technology
3. Kimber: braiding offers the same amount of shielding as real shields--yeah right.
4. Stefan Audio Art Equinox: they use expensive plugs as opposed to "cheap" plugs on Cardas and other competitors--hmm........ so they're saying that their $2/each Neutrik plug is more expensive than Cardas' $2/each Switchcraft?.... if you read their article, you'd think they were using a plug made out of some ultanium super metal!
5. and now you can add Tara labs to the list....

man.... i could go on and on.... but you get the point... as you can see, some of the biggest names in audio still market ******** explanations. NOTE: i am not saying their products do not work.... but the thinking behind them is just junk.

 

[Czilla9000]

I am still confused about the ground wire.............WHAT THE HECK IS IT!!!!!! Does the quality of the g-wire matter?

 

[DanG]

This might help.

http://www.engineeringharmonics.com/papers/p_gupdte.htm

 

[ServinginEcuador]

Quote:

Originally posted by Czilla9000 - The ground wire is needed to prevent electric shock (?).

No. The ground, in the case of an IC is to provide the electrical path that completes the circuit and allows current to flow. It is more of a return path back to the source more than a ground. This loop is what is necessary to get current flow. Without a ground you have an open circuit, and no current flow. The ground of a three-prong electrical system is to prevent shocks and can also be used to divert unwanted stuff from the hot and neutral legs over and bypass the piece of equipment. If you have lots of RF in your area, a shield can also be used to catch the RF and pass it to ground, making sure it doesn't get into the power supply of your audio equipment.


Quote:

- The quality of the ground does not effect sound quality (?). (the ground is the part I am most befuddled about)

The quality of the ground, as in cable quality, can make a big difference for several reasons. One if it is not done well it can add resistance to the circuit. Next it can add capacitance to the circuit, which will throw off the voltage and current phase relationship. Or it can add inductance, also throwing off the voltage and current phase relationship. Since the ground is part of the circuit in question, consideration to what is used in it is also important also.


From what I've read, a solid core, copper conductor is supposed to be the best for audio frequency transmission. I don't think that the skin effect is a consideration, even at 20KHz.

 

[bootman]

Quote:

Originally posted by Czilla9000 - Air is the best insulator. Less teflon, more air = good. - The job of the insulator is to seperate the conductor from the ground.

The size and type of insulator also defines the impedance of the cable that you use.

How well you crimp or solder the connection will also affect this.

 

[Orpheus]

how does the insulator affect impedance?

 

[Orpheus]

bootman, how does the insulator affect impedance?

as far as i know, it doesn't. i don't see why it should. learn us....

 

[gerG]

Whoa, am I ever disillusioned!

I thought that gold blew the doors off anything short of platinum as a conductor. Silver was a distant third, while copper was cheap, and better than aluminum.

I thought that I could name a dozen materials that were better electrical insulators than air (starting with vacuum).

I thought that high frequencies traveled close to the surface, therefore more surface area was better. Never knew what was enough, though.

I am still pretty sure that high frequency, high voltage conductors have a minimum bend radius before the spark actually just blows through the side of the cable and goes wherever it damned well feels like. Not an issue for audio, but pretty cool, no?

Somebody please straighten me out!

Otherwise I will have to look all this stuff up on Monday.


gerG

 

[Orpheus]

heh he...

1. conductivity in order from greatest to least: Silver > Copper > Gold > Platinum. problem is, silver and copper corrode relatively fast. gold and platinum conduct worse, but don't corrode so badly....

2. not sure on this one...

3. this one is a little more complicated. i am not so sure what skin effect is other than the fact that the higher the frequency of alternating current, the more it tends to travel closer to the surface of a conductor because of non-immediate magnetic field changes. skin effect isn't just a function of surface area, but quite a few variables it seems. litz wire seems to be best to avoid skin effect because the wire used is so thing that it is thinner than the "skin depth." the reason i said litz wire was ******** earlier isn't because it doesn't work the way it should, but because no cable maker currently uses TRUE litz wire. REAL litz cable is made up of INSULATED thin wires, and i have not seen any cable maker use such wire, though they claim to be litz cables... here are 2 articles that explain:

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~~www_pa...ect/page1.html

http://www.mos.org/sln/toe/skineffect.html

and a very good one that directly addresses the issue:

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/...ect_Cables.htm

4. hmm....... i suppose if i could connect maybe 100 of my hafler amps together we can test your bend theory

 

[Ebonyks]

I don't see the skin effect as a valid argument for cable construction, in general terms. Basically, anything larger than 20-16 gauge wire for interconnects (There's plenty of conterversy on that subject), will cause everything to sound blurry and smeared, thus time smear. Keep in mind that i mean 20-16 solid wire.

I don't like stranded connectors, smaller wires tend to transmit more towards the high end of the spectrum, often selling the bass short, Also, the area between the strands oxidizes.

Litz braiding is a process of braiding togther wires in the same way that someone would braid hair. It yeilds good results. Multi-strand litz braiding also exists, from a simple multi-strand (Kimber), to an overly complex one (Cardas), there are plenty of valid techniques of litz braiding, with multiple gauges as well.

No insulation is ideal, but impractical. Teflon is pretty much consitered to be the next best thing.

Copper tends to sound more musical, and darker.

Silver tends to sound more analyical and brighter. Again, these are basic properties of the working materials, and many designs can overcome these faults.

Another thing. Copper > brass. (For RCA plugs), i just reccomend using the bullet plugs, they can be had for 30 dollars for a 4-pack if you have the right sources

If you're intrested, i'm working on a cable design, send me a PM if you want a diagram of where it's at now, and perhaps play around with some construction ideas.

I'm also intrested in getting into cable building

 

[Orpheus]

"I don't like stranded connectors, smaller wires tend to transmit more towards the high end of the spectrum, often selling the bass short, Also, the area between the strands oxidizes."

--no, not really. take out a 20 year old cable, and strip it. see any oxidation? thought so.

"Litz braiding is a process of braiding togther wires in the same way that someone would braid hair. It yeilds good results. Multi-strand litz braiding also exists, from a simple multi-strand (Kimber), to an overly complex one (Cardas), there are plenty of valid techniques of litz braiding, with multiple gauges as well. "

--NO. litz wire has NOTHING to do with braiding. it is the use of ultra-thin wire that has been insulated, to overcome the skin-effect. this is because the wire is so thin, it is thinner than the skin-depth. neither Kimber nor Cardas has any true litz cable. they claim it, and they are lying. true litz wire is ultra-thin INSULATED wire. read the articles i have supplied.

"Copper tends to sound more musical, and darker.

Silver tends to sound more analyical and brighter. Again, these are basic properties of the working materials, and many designs can overcome these faults."

--as far as i know, this is purely subjective. can you show me scientific data that shows that silver conducts high frequencies better than copper in the normal human hearing range? i could be wrong, and i would like to know...

"i just reccomend using the bullet plugs, they can be had for 30 dollars for a 4-pack if you have the right sources"

--those "bullet" plugs are ******** too. i have never heard such nonsense...... pinpoint connections better than the a good solid fit?--sure....

 

[Ebonyks]

Quote:

--NO. litz wire has NOTHING to do with braiding. it is the use of ultra-thin wire that has been insulated, to overcome the skin-effect. this is because the wire is so thin, it is thinner than the skin-depth. neither Kimber nor Cardas has any true litz cable. they claim it, and they are lying. true litz wire is ultra-thin INSULATED wire. read the articles i have supplied.

I said litz braiding, not litz wire

Litz braiding is often commonly done in audio cables with litz wire. I was refering to construction techniques, not wire type.

Quote:

no, not really. take out a 20 year old cable, and strip it. see any oxidation? thought so.

It's still a potentional problem of it. If you'd like me to go on with a list of things that i don't like about stranded wire, feel free to ask, i'm not here to preach to anyone.

Quote:

--as far as i know, this is purely subjective. can you show me scientific data that shows that silver conducts high frequencies better than copper in the normal human hearing range? i could be wrong, and i would like to know...

Yeah, pretty much, those are basically detailed impressions of chris venhaus, besides, from a scientific standpoint, cables really shouldn't matter, anyway.

Quote:

--those "bullet" plugs are ******** too. i have never heard such nonsense...... pinpoint connections better than the a good solid fit?--sure....

They're well-built plugs made out of high-quality materials for a relitively low cost. I see no problem with that. And if you disagree, find high quality OFC RCA's for under 15 bucks a pair.

Besides, what makes you say otherwise? You seem to have an article to support all of your beliefs, unless it appears that they've been pulled from your arse, like the one above

 

[Orpheus]

???........ i dunno what you're talking about. did you read the articles?

litz has nothing to do with braiding. period. they call it litz-braiding? fine. but it's a false name. there is nothing litz about braiding.

or are we here to talk about my arse?

anyway.... i make cables too man. and i can almost promise you, i have made more than any one person here. you just ask people that came to my head-fi meet the 1st of march. ....all different kinds. from versions i sell for $40.... all the way to 8-channel star quad insert snakes, requiring a 16-channel 4-conductor snake and 24 plugs.... you just imagine the time it takes to do that. and i have to make 5 of these things!+20 more patch cables, + 10-20 more instrument cables + various whatevers....... to add to the hundreds of cables i have already soldered myself for my studio.

the point?--NO, i'm not pulling stuff out of my arse.

i'm just pointing out you were wrong. nothing wrong in being wrong. just read the articles and educate yourself.

 

[Czilla9000]

For those of you wondering about conductivity:

Note: I did not copy and paste this from a list - I did it myself. Each element one by one. Page by page. Took me a while.


The end result is there are 23 elements more conductive than Platinum.


1. Ag - Silver - 630.5 1/mohm-cm

2. Cu - Copper - 595.8 1/mohm-cm

3. Au - Gold - 446.4 1/mohm-cm

4. Al - Aluminum - 376.676 1/mohm-cm

5. Ca - Calcium - 255.754 1/mohm-cm

6. Be - Beryllium - 250 1/mohm-cm

7. Mg- Magnesium - 224.719 1/mohm-cm

8. Rh - Rhodium - 221.729 1/mohm-cm

9. Na - Sodium - 209.6 1/mohm-cm

10. Mo - Molybdenum - 192.308 1/mohm-cm

11. Ir - Iridium - 188.679 1/mohm-cm

12. W - Tungsten - 176.991 1/mohm-cm

13. Zn - Zinc - 169.033 1/mohm-cm

14. Co - Cobalt - 160.256 1/mohm-cm

15. Cd - Cadmium - 146.413 1/mohm-cm

16. Ni - Nickel - 146.199 1/mohm-cm

17. K - Potassium - 138.9 1/mohm-cm

18. Ru - Ruthenium - 131.579 1/mohm-cm

19. In - Indium - 119.474 1/mohm-cm

20. Li - Lithium - 107.8 1/mohm-cm

21. Os- Osmium - 105.263 1/mohm-cm

22. Fe- Iron - 102.987 1/mohm-cm

23. Pd - Palladium - 94.8 1/mohm-cm

24. Pt- Platinum - 94.34 1/mohm-cm

 

[Orpheus]

i do not believe platinum is that bad of a conductor. according to your numbers, it's about 1/4-1/5 as conductive as the best. .....perhaps platinum they use for audio products is an alloy, or a different crsytal configuration? i have WBT binding posts that are plated with platinum.... the rep told me it is a little worse conductor than gold, but they were too cool to pass up. and those binding posts were HELLA expensive. ....? what you think?