spurxiii
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Is the Pioneer SX-2900 considered at vintage amp? Its what I have but I'm not 100% sure if the headphone out is via built in resistors?
Speaker amps for headphones
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nailbunny7
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Quote:
See if you can find a manual online, it should show whether or not it has it. That's what Steve Eddy told me
See if you can find a manual online, it should show whether or not it has it. That's what Steve Eddy told me
spurxiii
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Quote:
I've actually got the manual but I don't think it says on it whether the jacks are via resistors. There's nothing in the specifications page about the headphone jack either.
I've actually got the manual but I don't think it says on it whether the jacks are via resistors. There's nothing in the specifications page about the headphone jack either.
nailbunny7
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you try the schematic (if your manual has one)?
khaine1711
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Ermmm just ... try the headphone out? Not like it'll blow your headphone or anything.
Tracing the schematic can get you the value of the resistor - but orthos do not care if your hp out is 300 ohm or 0 ohm.
Tracing the schematic can get you the value of the resistor - but orthos do not care if your hp out is 300 ohm or 0 ohm.
FlySweep
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Great points.. I wholly agree with you.. and I certainly do not reside in the camp that thinks all amps "sound the same".. so we won't have to walk down that rocky road.. LOL.
My goal in (initially) using a T-amp was to merely gather a baseline evaluation of what the HD800 might sound like when driven off a speaker amp.. and how that "speaker amp" SQ compares to the "headphone amp" SQ I'm currently getting with the HD800 (from the Vio stack & the BH Crack). This exercise wasn't intended to determine if a "cheap" speaker amp (T-amp) would sound just as good as a more expensive speaker amp (Millenia). I'm quite confident the Millenia is head & shoulders better than my cheap T-amp. I guess the one thing that might help (me) is if Gary was able to compare the LCD-3's SQ off a speaker amp vs very good headphone amp.. but something tells me he might've done this, already.. so maybe I need to go digging around in this thread.
Excellent.. so w/ the Millenia at 8pm, the gain is suitable for low volume, quiet/"background-level" listening.. and there isn't any channel imbalance?
I am really tempted to just get the Millenia.. especially w/ the trial/evaluation period Jan offers. The SQ is certainly the biggest draw for me w/ the Millenia.. but the size of the unit is just as valuable to me.
Gary.. one more questions in regards to the Millenia, if you don't mind: you mentioned it had a warm-ish presentation.. did you find that type of sound to come at the expense of the treble? More specifically, did the treble quality remain extended, detailed, present, and articulate?
I actually have no problems whatsoever with the (stock) HD800's treble quantity.. I quite like it really.. so my only concern with the Millenia is it potentially "rolling" off the treble somewhat prematurely.
Gary in MD
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Folks:
I've owed you (and Klaus... he's apparently lurking around here these days) a writeup of the Cyclops, so here it is. Let's start with generalities. The Cyclops provides a perfectly realistic presentation of whatever music is sent to it. And by "perfect" and "realistic" I mean "perfect" and "realistic." On even a decent recording, every instrument sounds and feels exactly right. Timbre is perfectly represented. Tone is perfectly natural. No artificial color, flavor, or anything else. It isn't warm, it isn't cold it's REAL. On a really good recording, the Cyclops makes you feel like you are in the recording studio or theater or wherever the music is being played, assuming the location is a medium-sized room or has a great sound system and acoustics (unlike many of the large venues that the top bands play, unfortunately).
On the Cyclops, every instrument is distinct, yet the sound stage is big enough that your mind can "step back" and you can hear the whole group blended. Every instrument sounds real, every voice sounds perfectly natural, almost eerily natural, as if you were listening live, whether in a club or a theater or a studio or the musicians' living room as they are just hanging around jamming.
You can clearly hear the timbre of each instrument. There is body to the sound without bloat. Percussion clearly sounds like a strike, a ring, a sustained sound that then fades naturally. The sustain is not bloated or overly long. It is just real.
The Odyssey amp is the first one I've ever heard where you can clearly hear the different pitches of the cymbals, and the differences in how hard those cymbals are being hit, without having to strain to hear it. You can distinctly hear hi-hats opening and closing. The snares on snare drums are amazingly life-like, particularly on good recordings. Again, perfectly realistic.
Tonguing of saxophones is a particularly difficult timbre for most amps to reproduce well. Many of the amps in this comparo made tonguing sound like spitting. The Cyclops re-creates the actual sound clearly and accurately, so that you can obviously hear which notes are being tongued and which aren't, and the technique adds to the music instead of intruding and distracting.
Bass is felt as well as heard. Impacts of bass/kick drums are totally natural, with the sub-bass felt in your head and body. Bass guitars and stand-up basses sound perfectly natural, with clear plucks/attacks, low-frequency vibration that you can feel as well as hear, and sustain without mud. There is absolutely no boom or bloat. It is tight and fast, but full and rich at the same time. It just sounds perfectly real.
You can clearly hear the timbre of background instruments such as violins and horns. Most amps just fudge all of those sounds together. Not the Cyclops. If you focus even a small amount you can clearly hear each instrument perfectly represented.
Any good amp will allow you to hear the guitarists' fingers on the fret board, but it usually sounds like just a bunch of squeaking. On the Cyclops it really sounds like fingers sliding along metal strings -- and on a couple of Mumford and Sons tunes, I actually clearly heard the grab after the slide, and the deadening of the strings. It sounded perfectly lifelike. The first time I heard it, my brain immediately went "whoa, did I really hear that?" I replayed it. I had heard that. I've been listening to hi-fidelity equipment for 40 years and I've never heard that particular set of sounds reproduced that accurately. Perfect. Real.
As I've written before, I now use the Red Hot Chili Peppers as a torture test for high-fi equipment. For this comparison, I didn't even bother trying to play RHCPs on the MJ or Emo, for fear of damaging my hearing. I hated the sound on the Burson, as it produced the harsh wall of sound that people despise about the band's recordings. My Adcom deadens the sound enough to make it listenable, but it doesn't sound good. The Millenia takes the edge off of the Peppers' sound, making for a very pleasant listening experience. The Cyclops transforms the sound completely. It is still loud, but it isn't a wall of sound at all. It is distinct instruments and voices, placed very clearly around the sound stage, actually recorded very cleanly and reproduced with an accuracy that I've never heard before. It actually sounds great. Wow. Didn't believe that was possible.
How about some TV analogies to summarize each of the amps in this demo? The Emotiva is like a cheap 1960s color TV. Bright and over saturated in some places, muddy in others, harsh and glaring throughout. The Mjolnir is like a 2D 1080P (or maybe even 4K) HDTV that only reproduces black and white (and to be fair, shades of gray) in 2D. The details are there, but lifeless, cold, unreal. The Burson is like watching on a 2" screen, or on a 40" screen from 30 feet away. Fine for background, but not at all involving. My Adcom pre-amp is a low-quality 720P HDTV -- the basics are there, but you're missing a lot of detail. The Millenia like is a high quality 1080P or 4K set, with basic 3D capability. It isn't quite like being there, but it is pretty damn good for an electronic reproduction. The Cyclops is like being there. Period.
In the end, I sent back everything I tested in this comparison except the Millenia and Cyclops. I love the Millenia for its sweet sound and portability, and for its relative bargain price: if you have less than $1K to put toward an amp, there is nothing in this comparison test -- and I believe nothing on the market -- that can touch the Millenia.
But if money is no object, the Cyclops is the clear winner of this amp battle and is well worth its $1300 cost (Note: if you already have a quality pre-amp and don't need the volume control, you can save $100 and buy the Odyssey Khartago for $1200). The Cyclops will be doing most of the LCD-3 driving at my house, with the Millenia being used primarily to drive the small TBI Diamond 1 speakers I had Jan send me as computer speakers. But I'm thinking the Millenia might get some headphone time too, either as a change of pace or as a second rig for the bedroom (I'm definitely not hauling the Cyclops around the house). The little TBI amp is just too good and too versatile to send back.
I've owed you (and Klaus... he's apparently lurking around here these days) a writeup of the Cyclops, so here it is. Let's start with generalities. The Cyclops provides a perfectly realistic presentation of whatever music is sent to it. And by "perfect" and "realistic" I mean "perfect" and "realistic." On even a decent recording, every instrument sounds and feels exactly right. Timbre is perfectly represented. Tone is perfectly natural. No artificial color, flavor, or anything else. It isn't warm, it isn't cold it's REAL. On a really good recording, the Cyclops makes you feel like you are in the recording studio or theater or wherever the music is being played, assuming the location is a medium-sized room or has a great sound system and acoustics (unlike many of the large venues that the top bands play, unfortunately).
On the Cyclops, every instrument is distinct, yet the sound stage is big enough that your mind can "step back" and you can hear the whole group blended. Every instrument sounds real, every voice sounds perfectly natural, almost eerily natural, as if you were listening live, whether in a club or a theater or a studio or the musicians' living room as they are just hanging around jamming.
You can clearly hear the timbre of each instrument. There is body to the sound without bloat. Percussion clearly sounds like a strike, a ring, a sustained sound that then fades naturally. The sustain is not bloated or overly long. It is just real.
The Odyssey amp is the first one I've ever heard where you can clearly hear the different pitches of the cymbals, and the differences in how hard those cymbals are being hit, without having to strain to hear it. You can distinctly hear hi-hats opening and closing. The snares on snare drums are amazingly life-like, particularly on good recordings. Again, perfectly realistic.
Tonguing of saxophones is a particularly difficult timbre for most amps to reproduce well. Many of the amps in this comparo made tonguing sound like spitting. The Cyclops re-creates the actual sound clearly and accurately, so that you can obviously hear which notes are being tongued and which aren't, and the technique adds to the music instead of intruding and distracting.
Bass is felt as well as heard. Impacts of bass/kick drums are totally natural, with the sub-bass felt in your head and body. Bass guitars and stand-up basses sound perfectly natural, with clear plucks/attacks, low-frequency vibration that you can feel as well as hear, and sustain without mud. There is absolutely no boom or bloat. It is tight and fast, but full and rich at the same time. It just sounds perfectly real.
You can clearly hear the timbre of background instruments such as violins and horns. Most amps just fudge all of those sounds together. Not the Cyclops. If you focus even a small amount you can clearly hear each instrument perfectly represented.
Any good amp will allow you to hear the guitarists' fingers on the fret board, but it usually sounds like just a bunch of squeaking. On the Cyclops it really sounds like fingers sliding along metal strings -- and on a couple of Mumford and Sons tunes, I actually clearly heard the grab after the slide, and the deadening of the strings. It sounded perfectly lifelike. The first time I heard it, my brain immediately went "whoa, did I really hear that?" I replayed it. I had heard that. I've been listening to hi-fidelity equipment for 40 years and I've never heard that particular set of sounds reproduced that accurately. Perfect. Real.
As I've written before, I now use the Red Hot Chili Peppers as a torture test for high-fi equipment. For this comparison, I didn't even bother trying to play RHCPs on the MJ or Emo, for fear of damaging my hearing. I hated the sound on the Burson, as it produced the harsh wall of sound that people despise about the band's recordings. My Adcom deadens the sound enough to make it listenable, but it doesn't sound good. The Millenia takes the edge off of the Peppers' sound, making for a very pleasant listening experience. The Cyclops transforms the sound completely. It is still loud, but it isn't a wall of sound at all. It is distinct instruments and voices, placed very clearly around the sound stage, actually recorded very cleanly and reproduced with an accuracy that I've never heard before. It actually sounds great. Wow. Didn't believe that was possible.
How about some TV analogies to summarize each of the amps in this demo? The Emotiva is like a cheap 1960s color TV. Bright and over saturated in some places, muddy in others, harsh and glaring throughout. The Mjolnir is like a 2D 1080P (or maybe even 4K) HDTV that only reproduces black and white (and to be fair, shades of gray) in 2D. The details are there, but lifeless, cold, unreal. The Burson is like watching on a 2" screen, or on a 40" screen from 30 feet away. Fine for background, but not at all involving. My Adcom pre-amp is a low-quality 720P HDTV -- the basics are there, but you're missing a lot of detail. The Millenia like is a high quality 1080P or 4K set, with basic 3D capability. It isn't quite like being there, but it is pretty damn good for an electronic reproduction. The Cyclops is like being there. Period.
In the end, I sent back everything I tested in this comparison except the Millenia and Cyclops. I love the Millenia for its sweet sound and portability, and for its relative bargain price: if you have less than $1K to put toward an amp, there is nothing in this comparison test -- and I believe nothing on the market -- that can touch the Millenia.
But if money is no object, the Cyclops is the clear winner of this amp battle and is well worth its $1300 cost (Note: if you already have a quality pre-amp and don't need the volume control, you can save $100 and buy the Odyssey Khartago for $1200). The Cyclops will be doing most of the LCD-3 driving at my house, with the Millenia being used primarily to drive the small TBI Diamond 1 speakers I had Jan send me as computer speakers. But I'm thinking the Millenia might get some headphone time too, either as a change of pace or as a second rig for the bedroom (I'm definitely not hauling the Cyclops around the house). The little TBI amp is just too good and too versatile to send back.
Gary in MD
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In my view the Millenia whups the Mjolnir and the Soloist, the two <$1K speaker amps that most folks around here are into these days. It ain't even close. My reviews of all three are in this thread (just search for my posts with those words in them), though the summary I provided just above also provides a snapshot of what I think of these competitors.
There is no channel imbalance at normal listening levels (~70 dBs or so on my phone's sound meter app) with the resistor box.
There is no treble roll off. It is extended, detailed, full-bodied -- as in you hear real cymbal sound, not a bunch of hissing snakes. But just as a disclaimer, I did not like the HD-800 when I demo'ed it last year with my Adcom pre-amp and the Burson HA-160. Both amps of those amps have rolled off treble and I still thought the HD800 was too sizzly, so my view of proper treble reproduction is probably different than yours. But if you want what I believe is accurate treble sound and energy level without the harshness, I think the Millenia gives it to you, particularly with Jan's stock resistors. As always, however, I urge you to try it for yourself.
To be honest, though, I really want you to try it because I am a bit intrigued by what the HD800-Millenia combination would sound like. To me, the Senns were too focused on big sound stage and treble, and didn't have enough body in the mid-range and bass. The Millenia might provide exactly what the HD800 needs. Or not. Only one way to find out for sure...
In my view the Millenia whups the Mjolnir and the Soloist, the two <$1K speaker amps that most folks around here are into these days. It ain't even close. My reviews of all three are in this thread (just search for my posts with those words in them), though the summary I provided just above also provides a snapshot of what I think of these competitors.
There is no channel imbalance at normal listening levels (~70 dBs or so on my phone's sound meter app) with the resistor box.
There is no treble roll off. It is extended, detailed, full-bodied -- as in you hear real cymbal sound, not a bunch of hissing snakes. But just as a disclaimer, I did not like the HD-800 when I demo'ed it last year with my Adcom pre-amp and the Burson HA-160. Both amps of those amps have rolled off treble and I still thought the HD800 was too sizzly, so my view of proper treble reproduction is probably different than yours. But if you want what I believe is accurate treble sound and energy level without the harshness, I think the Millenia gives it to you, particularly with Jan's stock resistors. As always, however, I urge you to try it for yourself.
To be honest, though, I really want you to try it because I am a bit intrigued by what the HD800-Millenia combination would sound like. To me, the Senns were too focused on big sound stage and treble, and didn't have enough body in the mid-range and bass. The Millenia might provide exactly what the HD800 needs. Or not. Only one way to find out for sure...
FlySweep
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Excellent.. that was quite helpful. I've heard from many people (who's ears I trust) that the HA-160 is pretty underwhelming with the HD800 too, so you're not alone in that assessment.
I understand & agree with your sentiments about the HD800 being "soundstage focused" & lacking body in the midrange.. that lack of body is what gives it that 'silky' quality, IMO.. but yeah, it can definitely feel like it lacks weight.. and a big part of that is what's upstream of it.
I've asked Jan to add the Millenia to my "resistor box" order, so consider your wish fulfilled.. thanks for your help & I will report back on how the HD800/Millenia combo sounds.
spurxiii
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SMG52
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Gary,
Not to hijack this thread, but I've had an interest in possibly checking out the LCD-2s sometime. I assume from your experience with the 3s, they would also work well with the Millenia?
The Khartago received quite a rave review in Absolute Sound a couple years back. Not surprised you liked the Cyclops (although I haven't heard any of the Odyssey amps myself).
Your experience in audio (40 years) sounds like it parallels mine!
Not to hijack this thread, but I've had an interest in possibly checking out the LCD-2s sometime. I assume from your experience with the 3s, they would also work well with the Millenia?
The Khartago received quite a rave review in Absolute Sound a couple years back. Not surprised you liked the Cyclops (although I haven't heard any of the Odyssey amps myself).
Your experience in audio (40 years) sounds like it parallels mine!
Theogenes
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Glad to see Klaus' amps getting some good press around here... When I first got into audio around 2004-5 on the old AV123 forums, his stuff was considered a kind of hidden masterpiece that most of the audio purchasing public was totally unaware of. I would really love it if a technically proficient active speaker manufacturer would build some actives with his amps at some point... But the chances of that are essentially nil.
Anyway, great impressions, Gary!! Thank you so much for sharing your experiences with everyone!! Although as usual, anything I enjoy reading around here is highly likely to cost me a chunk of change at some point
Anyway, great impressions, Gary!! Thank you so much for sharing your experiences with everyone!! Although as usual, anything I enjoy reading around here is highly likely to cost me a chunk of change at some point
Gary in MD
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The difference between the LCD-2 and -3 is subtle but significant in my brain. The -2s sound very similar, in that the mid-range is very rich, but they did not provide that last bit of realism that the -3s did, at least driven by the equipment I had on hand last summer. If you read enough around here, including my comparison from last year ( http://www.head-fi.org/t/617382/comparing-the-best-of-the-best ), you get a pretty good idea of the differences. Given your experience in hi-fi, I think you'd be happy with the -2s, but much happier with the -3s. And hey, it's only $1K... of your money, not mine!
But I strongly urge you to try both by borrowing them together from The Cable Co. It will cost you about $30 in 2-way shipping costs, assuming you decide to buy from them (why not, they get the same price for them new that everybody else does). But that is the equivalent of a half-tank of gas... and think of all the gas you've used driving around to various stereo sellers in the past 40 years...
The difference between the LCD-2 and -3 is subtle but significant in my brain. The -2s sound very similar, in that the mid-range is very rich, but they did not provide that last bit of realism that the -3s did, at least driven by the equipment I had on hand last summer. If you read enough around here, including my comparison from last year ( http://www.head-fi.org/t/617382/comparing-the-best-of-the-best ), you get a pretty good idea of the differences. Given your experience in hi-fi, I think you'd be happy with the -2s, but much happier with the -3s. And hey, it's only $1K... of your money, not mine!
Gary in MD
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