SONY NWZ-A10 Series
Nov 28, 2014 at 2:20 PM Post #1,471 of 7,541
 
I don't think the term noise floor is used correctly in this scenario. Noise floor implies that it is the device noise that is constant regardless of signal level.
 
In the Windows envrioment, let's say the noise has a value of 1 and signal at 10% volume has a value of 1, the SNR is then 1, very audible. At 100% volume, the noise "floor" is still 1, but now your signal has a value of 10, and the SNR is now 10, much less audible. By introducing a attenuator after this, of course the noise is attenuated, but the signal is attenuated too. So the SNR is, regardless of your volume adaptor, 10.
 
Adding the attenuator does not decrease noise floor. It decreases the noise amount, and at the same time, your music as well.

The noise floor is constant regardless of Windows volume if my attenuator is set to 15%. If I lower Windows volume to 10% and max out the attenuator, the noise floor is constant regardless of Windows Volume (same as if I connect directly, without attenuator. It is all over the forum that the attenuator reduces floor noise from high output impedance sources, it is a well known fact lol. I don't know the science behind it but it is definitely not a subtle difference, it is huge, reproducible and very easily noticed. That is particularly why it is included with these 9ohm IEM's which pick up floor noise from almost every desktop amp
 
From Shure's official description:
  1. Level attenuator offers precise volume adjustment and comfortable listening to playback devices, including airplane headphone outputs that are often too loud at the lowest volume setting. Reduces the level of incoming signals and background hiss.
 
Nov 28, 2014 at 7:37 PM Post #1,472 of 7,541
 
 
I don't think the term noise floor is used correctly in this scenario. Noise floor implies that it is the device noise that is constant regardless of signal level.
 
In the Windows envrioment, let's say the noise has a value of 1 and signal at 10% volume has a value of 1, the SNR is then 1, very audible. At 100% volume, the noise "floor" is still 1, but now your signal has a value of 10, and the SNR is now 10, much less audible. By introducing a attenuator after this, of course the noise is attenuated, but the signal is attenuated too. So the SNR is, regardless of your volume adaptor, 10.
 
Adding the attenuator does not decrease noise floor. It decreases the noise amount, and at the same time, your music as well.

The noise floor is constant regardless of Windows volume if my attenuator is set to 15%. If I lower Windows volume to 10% and max out the attenuator, the noise floor is constant regardless of Windows Volume (same as if I connect directly, without attenuator. It is all over the forum that the attenuator reduces floor noise from high output impedance sources, it is a well known fact lol. I don't know the science behind it but it is definitely not a subtle difference, it is huge, reproducible and very easily noticed. That is particularly why it is included with these 9ohm IEM's which pick up floor noise from almost every desktop amp
 
From Shure's official description:
  1. Level attenuator offers precise volume adjustment and comfortable listening to playback devices, including airplane headphone outputs that are often too loud at the lowest volume setting. Reduces the level of incoming signals and background hiss.


the little tiny problem with you plan I would say is that your remote volume attenuator is most likely a variable resistor ^_^. the lower you set the volume the higher the impedance. I=U/R  the bigger the resistor, the lower the loudness.
for the hissing that will work perfectly, you increase the volume from your sony, and lower it back with the remote stuff. making the difference between the hiss and the music higher, and so the hiss less audible.
 
from an impedance perspective it is very bad news. you will completely tilt your signature on the 846. the higher the source's impedance, the more bass and less trebles you will get on the that IEM.


think that with more impedance the IEM signature will be more and more a superposition of the original signature and the impedance curve(line at the bottom).  and with values so low, the change will be several DB after even a few ohm(and most likely you would need close to 100ohm to get almost rid of the hiss).
 
so if you like your 846 with more bass you can try this, and even change the filters to get a little more margin. but if you already have too much bass, then only an amp can do the trick of low noise and low impedance. (I wouldn't worry too much about damping factor as a way to control the drivers,  BA drivers are so efficient I doubt that would be a problem, only the signature of the IEM will be).
 
 
 
the hissing misunderstanding comes from the fact that noises can have several origins. on a DAP, it is most likely that the noise we get is from the components and unrelated to volume. so if the noise is 40db loud,  and you listen to music at 80db loud, then you have a hiss just 40db below music. now if you listen to music at 100db, that hiss is still 40db loud, so it is now 60db below music.
that is the logic used with the volume attenuator(variable resistor). you increase the DAP's volume by a lot, making the difference between the hiss and the music huge. then you use the remote to reduce the overall loudness to get the music back at 80db, but this time the hiss will also go down with the rest.
that's how it works, and it isn't a problem when the headphone has a flat impedance response and not such small impedance values.  the SE846 is probably in the top 5 list of universal IEMs that will be greatly affected by the source's impedance(and source for the driver is amp+cable).
 
 
now maybe they have made something amazing that keep the impedance low with the shure remote? I don't know what that product is, but I wouldn't get my hopes up etheir.
 
Nov 28, 2014 at 8:01 PM Post #1,473 of 7,541
having this player over a month already and im very happy with it and dont regret selling fiio x3. there is only single one thing, that bothers me: once per few hours, during playing music, player beeps few times and auto lower volume and message comes: adjust volume level - or something like that. Is it on purpose or is it bug in firmware?  It doesnt happen often, but its anoying as hell when it does. I have EU version of A15.
 
Nov 28, 2014 at 8:31 PM Post #1,474 of 7,541
  having this player over a month already and im very happy with it and dont regret selling fiio x3. there is only single one thing, that bothers me: once per few hours, during playing music, player beeps few times and auto lower volume and message comes: adjust volume level - or something like that. Is it on purpose or is it bug in firmware?  It doesnt happen often, but its anoying as hell when it does. I have EU version of A15.

Planning to buy this player. Today was released on mexico in the Blue 64GB and also black in 64GB, bot costs like 399 USD here in MX, my fiio x3 died today damn, i was loading songs, the player froze and spelled bye bye i does turn on anymore, tried reset, removing sd card everything but nope dead, had 9 months with it
 
Nov 28, 2014 at 9:14 PM Post #1,475 of 7,541
  having this player over a month already and im very happy with it and dont regret selling fiio x3. there is only single one thing, that bothers me: once per few hours, during playing music, player beeps few times and auto lower volume and message comes: adjust volume level - or something like that. Is it on purpose or is it bug in firmware?  It doesnt happen often, but its anoying as hell when it does. I have EU version of A15.


Mine is not a EU version but have a look at Settings/Common Settings and then AVLS as well as Beep Settings and see if that makes a difference.
 
Nov 28, 2014 at 9:29 PM Post #1,476 of 7,541
Hi guys

Will A15/17 be able to drive 32 ohms properly to satisfactory loudness...I want to buy Senn PX 95...tq

sorry i meant PX 90 but i think they are both 32 ohms...thanks for the input guys
 
Nov 28, 2014 at 10:41 PM Post #1,477 of 7,541
  The noise floor is constant regardless of Windows volume if my attenuator is set to 15%. If I lower Windows volume to 10% and max out the attenuator, the noise floor is constant regardless of Windows Volume (same as if I connect directly, without attenuator. It is all over the forum that the attenuator reduces floor noise from high output impedance sources, it is a well known fact lol. I don't know the science behind it but it is definitely not a subtle difference, it is huge, reproducible and very easily noticed. That is particularly why it is included with these 9ohm IEM's which pick up floor noise from almost every desktop amp
 
From Shure's official description:
  1.  


I am not disputing the factor that noise is less audible once you crank the volume up. But "noise floor" remain constant regardless of what you do with the signal volume. It is the baseline noise that isn't  affect by the signal. The SNR that manufacturers claim is always at the maximum volume, the Noise part of the ratio doesn't change, the Signal does according to the volume control.
 
Note that Shure has it correctly too, it just says background hiss, which can just translate to noise, but not noise floor. It can certainly attenuate noise, but it will attenuate signal too.
 
Nov 28, 2014 at 10:59 PM Post #1,478 of 7,541
 
I am not disputing the factor that noise is less audible once you crank the volume up. But "noise floor" remain constant regardless of what you do with the signal volume. It is the baseline noise that isn't  affect by the signal. The SNR that manufacturers claim is always at the maximum volume, the Noise part of the ratio doesn't change, the Signal does according to the volume control.
 
Note that Shure has it correctly too, it just says background hiss, which can just translate to noise, but not noise floor. It can certainly attenuate noise, but it will attenuate signal too.

 
Ok I think I understand now.
 
So, isn't the 4 ohm output impedance on A17 affecting the frequency response of the SE846 then? To me, the bass feels the same as the AK100 MKII (2ohm output impedance) and the treble extension is better (treble ceiling is higher). But then, I've never heard them from a <1ohm impedance source so I have nothing to compare to.
 
Thanks for the help guys! 
 
Nov 28, 2014 at 11:38 PM Post #1,479 of 7,541
My new A17 is my first foray into portable hi-res audio.  I'm quite blown away really with the sound that's coming out of it paired with my 9 yrs old pair of Shure e4 IEM.  And this is just with cd ripped flacs too.  Looking forward to getting some hi-res soon.
I now want to get a good pair of OEM to go with this without the need for an external amp as portability is important.
What should I be looking for?  My quick research tells me I should get something with high sensitivity and not to far from 32ohms.  (8 times the rated 4ohms output rating of the A17).
Would the Sony MDR-1A or MDR-1R be a good fit?
Thanks guys.
 
Nov 29, 2014 at 12:25 AM Post #1,480 of 7,541
  My new A17 is my first foray into portable hi-res audio.  I'm quite blown away really with the sound that's coming out of it paired with my 9 yrs old pair of Shure e4 IEM.  And this is just with cd ripped flacs too.  Looking forward to getting some hi-res soon.
I now want to get a good pair of OEM to go with this without the need for an external amp as portability is important.
What should I be looking for?  My quick research tells me I should get something with high sensitivity and not to far from 32ohms.  (8 times the rated 4ohms output rating of the A17).
Would the Sony MDR-1A or MDR-1R be a good fit?
Thanks guys.


I will buy those two babies too!, the MDR-1R (because i am giving my curent Ultrasone HFI-780 as xmas Gift to my BF from Germany), and the NWZ-A17 (to replace my dead fiio x3, i'm shocked right now)
 
Nov 29, 2014 at 1:44 AM Post #1,481 of 7,541
Just putting an a15 through its tests now, it's a nice compact unit, its great size for putting in your pocket on the go, the eq on this is fantastic (and surprise surprise it works on high res music) it can really get my p7 thumping and I like the radio, it's a good thing to have.
But coming from the x5 it seems to be missing the musical fun and micro detail, maybe it needs more time to settle maybe it can't compete. Either way its micro size and massive battery run time is very welcoming for every day portable use, on the move.
 
Nov 29, 2014 at 3:34 AM Post #1,482 of 7,541
Just putting an a15 through its tests now, it's a nice compact unit, its great size for putting in your pocket on the go, the eq on this is fantastic (and surprise surprise it works on high res music) it can really get my p7 thumping and I like the radio, it's a good thing to have.
But coming from the x5 it seems to be missing the musical fun and micro detail, maybe it needs more time to settle maybe it can't compete. Either way its micro size and massive battery run time is very welcoming for every day portable use, on the move.

The X5 is more musical and better sounding to my ears as well.  However, I'll take the A17 as my portable un-amped DAP due to the reasons you just listed above.  You just can't beat the battery life, UI, and storage space for a DAP of this size.
 
Nov 29, 2014 at 4:16 AM Post #1,483 of 7,541

The equalizer doesn't work with high-res music. Only if you activate the downsampling and that doesn't make sense if you want to use high-res files.
 
The AVLS beeps and the message are normal. How about reading the manual?
 
Nov 29, 2014 at 4:19 AM Post #1,484 of 7,541
Yeah its incredible how tiny it is with huge run times feels like a good build as well, it's great to see Sony letting go of its strict expandable memory policy or lack of it on their devices, this is a step in the right direction, but that ×××××× plug, why?? At least hang a micro usb port of the side.
I don't understand Sony you are supplying half usb cable with no power pack but you expect us to carry this cable. For a company with incredible ideas and tech it seems logic is running short. End of bitch.
Oh I thought I seen the high res symbol on and the eq was active, I'll double check, thanks.
 

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