[clarinetman]

In the passing months I've found myself with the ever-familiar nervous upgrade itch for my nonexistent home system--I'm likely going to be getting the SA5000, AD2000, DT880, and/or SR-404 Limited, when I have the money.

That said, all of the aforementioned will obviously need a decent desktop amp to sound to their fullest (the closest thing I have now is a shoddy Bravo tube amp I got off eBay for $60), and so of course I've considered this into my budget... Now I'm just wondering what to save for at this point, since there seems to be a ridiculous spread of info around here.

To me, tubes seem like a pain in the ass. I see little value in tube rolling because it's expensive and tedious, and they burn out after a while, adding to the already sky-high spending. I've also heard that tubes to absolutely nothing that chips can, which I want to believe, but I don't honestly know. On the other hand, however, I've heard yet another boundless multitude of the positives of tubes, and how they give an allegedly "warm sound". In essence: apparently tubes are smooth and fun, but chips are cold and analytical. When I compare the Bravo to my XM5, I vastly prefer the XM5 simply because it sounds far more accurate, but this could also be because the Bravo... sucks ... It could be either.

I'd really like to upgrade my source as well, because I've been using my S9 for most of my listening with the exception of my computer (which I rarely use; only really for computer sound or watching videos). In truth, I really love the convenience of using the S9, simply because it has all of my music digitized and in a library so I don't have to perpetually change CDs. I'm unsure, is my S9 a better source than I think it is? I'm almost positive there are better alternatives. For some reason or another, I'm not really attracted to the idea of using my computer for music... It might be due to the fact that my library is horrifically disorganized and in a state of chaos and that I much prefer the idea of having one source for music (S9).


Now down to dollars and sense... It would be preferable to pay no more than $400 or $500 for each of the individual items. As stated, it would be incredibly nice to be able to have a source for music that had would have a digital library instead of a CD player (maybe I'm being idealistic here, but I'm new to this aspect of audio). As for the amp, it seems as though solid state is the way to go, but perhaps one of you could persuade me to tubes. Ultimately, any info you have about the former would be greatly appreciated.


Thank you for your help!

 

[Mad Max]

Chips aren't cold, it's just your attitude towards them that is, mister =P
ADA4627-1AR is quite comfortably warm, I'll tell you what.

Can you try both?

 

[clarinetman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad Max /img/forum/go_quote.gif Chips aren't cold, it's just your attitude towards them that is, mister =P ADA4627-1AR is quite comfortably warm, I'll tell you what. Can you try both?

Hahaha, actually, I quite enjoy cold sound.

But no, I really can't. I mean, I sort of could, but it would be far to expensive.

 

[gknix]

Since everything is organized on your s9, you surely have a collection of music on your computer right? If you want a quick and simple way to reorganize your music files on you computer, one thing I can think of is using iTunes. In fact, most music players should be the same id3 tags as your s9...wouldn't using a music player allow you to easily view all your music in an organized manner?

Take all your music from your s9, and transfer it back to your itunes and have it create folders and organize for you automatically.

I am making this suggestion for another purpose that relates to your concerns mainly. Once you have an organized way to view your music, you can purchase a DAC as a better source. DACs that are in your price range, $400-500, would easily make your music shine vs your s9. s9 is a great player in itself, but compared to a $400-500 DAC, the differentials between the two would be monumental. A good DAC that are around the for around 400 would be a Pico DAC or Pico DAC/Amp. I have limited knowledge on this aspect, but a DAC would definitely be a much greater source. Sources tend to transform your music quite a bit.

As for Amps, most people consider not only the amp itself as being important, but rather, the synergy that goes with your headphones you plan to use. Ofcourse, some people change their rig quite often, and rather have more versatile or forgiving amp in case of this habit.

From what I've read, and heard from Uncle Erik, a cheap Solid State amp is by far better than a cheap tube amp. Tube rolling can get expensive if you want to get a particular sound you want to reach...but again, you will get a variety of sound that you can test out. Solid state amps tend to be 'cold' sounding as a lot of people say, but there are certainly warmer SS amps around which would not have the issue you mentioned.

Again, these are just my opinion from the gathered readings that I have been doing since I joined. Someone more experienced could perhaps help you out more. Nonetheless, I hope I provided some input here.

 

[dongringo]

A few months ago I was in the same dilemma. I ended up going with a Mapletree Ear+ HD tube amp and couldn't be more satisfied. It's warm without being syrupy and I no longer have to eq any of my headphones, even the RS1i which, incidentally, have incredible synergy with this amp. The DT880/600ohm sound incredible as well. And tube rolling is lot of fun. The initial expense of different tubes is a temporary blow to the wallet, but if you get NOS tubes, they will last forever and the different sound signatures you get out of them is great for different types of music, different headphones, or whatever mood you're in. I have nothing against SS, but couldn't be happier with this tube amp.

My brother has a Meier Corda Concerto coming, which is in the same price range. I look forward to comparing.

 

[Ypoknons]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gknix /img/forum/go_quote.gif From what I've read, and heard from Uncle Erik, a cheap Solid State amp is by far better than a cheap tube amp. Tube rolling can get expensive if you want to get a particular sound you want to reach...but again, you will get a variety of sound that you can test out. Solid state amps tend to be 'cold' sounding as a lot of people say, but there are certainly warmer SS amps around which would not have the issue you mentioned.

You can get an excellent SS amp for $500 these days - such as a consumer Dynalo (used G-lite, the Sheer amp), an Audio GD model, Burson HA-160, even a PS Audio GCHA and for a bit more, a Concerto. For DIY, an M^3 is supposed to be excellent. They'll drive low and high impedance phones well. On the other hand, most of the cheap tube amps are OTL and come with cheap tubes anyways. The Elekit is the cheapest transformer coupled phone I've seen, and that seems to be me to be PCB (Uncle Erik says point to point is preferable; the technical points are beyond me). The cheapest point to point transformer coupled tube amp I know of is the Woo Audio 6 at $620.

Frankly, I suspect tube amps are a lot about subtle coloration (this is of interest), as is a lot of the headphone, amp and source matching around here is. That's alright with me, I'm not here to judge. Probably depends on your material too. To me it's another form of hardware EQ (shrug). Music reproduction is both technical and emotional to me, though I wonder what sound engineers (in their off time) and musicians think about coloration.

Edit:
Quote:

Originally Posted by dongringo /img/forum/go_quote.gif A few months ago I was in the same dilemma. I ended up going with a Mapletree Ear+ HD tube amp and couldn't be more satisfied. It's warm without being syrupy and I no longer have to eq any of my headphones, even the RS1i which, incidentally, have incredible synergy with this amp. The DT880/600ohm sound incredible as well. And tube rolling is lot of fun. The initial expense of different tubes is a temporary blow to the wallet, but if you get NOS tubes, they will last forever and the different sound signatures you get out of them is great for different types of music, different headphones, or whatever mood you're in. I have nothing against SS, but couldn't be happier with this tube amp. My brother has a Meier Corda Concerto coming, which is in the same price range. I look forward to comparing.

Do it, buddy! That's the spirit

 

[Leny]

Guys, there is not an inherent 'solid state sound' or a 'tube sound'. There are just so many variables that it would be impossible for a generic sound to be associated with a single component. Sooo many people repeat what they have heard elsewhere, and many blindly believe the magazine reviewers (...for whom it is necessary to maintain the hype and continue the myths to help them boost their ego / status).

However, there is a large difference between good and bad design whether it be tube or transistor. I've heard good and bad with both. Most very cheap amps are solid state, and there is often a reason why they are cheap! (But I've obviously not tried them all).

On the other hand, cheap tube amps sometimes seem to be no more than cynical marketing efforts along the lines of "If it's got a tube it's going to look special, and some mug will buy it, so let's make a tube amp". Or maybe I'm just getting negative in my old age.

Anyway, the cheap amps (tube and SS) that I have tried and though decent were from M.A.D. (can't recall it's model name), the DNA Sonnett, the Hagtech (kit built) Castanet, the latest Creek model, and the Millett Starving Student.

...good luck in your quest...

 

[Uncle Erik]

Don't bother with a $400-$500 tube amp unless you build it yourself. The cheap ones are compromised in construction and circuit design to force down the prices. You can, however, get really good parts to build a good design for about $500. Otherwise, go solid state.

The critical difference is in the power supply. If you want tubes operating at their best, you really have to have a quality high voltage power supply. But what you need for one costs around $400-$500 in parts - no manufacturer can build that at a profit, so they don't.

Solid state uses a low voltage power supply, which costs a lot less. You can also filter and regulate low voltage much less expensively. That's why at the low end (and I know they're still pricey) solid state gives you better performance at those prices. Also, PCBs work fine for solid state. For the high voltage and high temperatures of tubes, you really want point-to-point construction.

Also, to clear up some misconceptions, tubes are not a pain to deal with. Tuberollers put themselves into their own special hell chasing increasingly expensive NOS tubes and seeming never to rest with their quest to find the "perfect" tube. I don't bother with that. New and inexpensive NOS tubes are fine with me. The design of the circuit has more to do with the sound, anyway. I put reasonably priced tubes in my amps and use them until they die. I'd much rather listen than obsess over a component that changes value over time and will eventually burn out. There's no reason you couldn't do the same.

Next, there isn't a stereotypical "tube" sound. They're all different. Some are warm, some aren't. The Zana almost fools me into think it's solid state now and then, while the Moth is unmistakably tubed. It all depends.

The reason I'm primarily tubed is because of the longetivity and ease of repair. If something goes wrong in a point-to-point amp, repairs are straightforward and all parts can be found or made. If something goes wrong with tubes on a PCB, the PCB might be ruined, requiring extensive surgery or possibly needing replacement of the PCB.

The trouble with chips is that once they're out of production, they're impossible to find. I built a Dynalo a few years ago and had been wanting to transform it into a Dynamid (balanced) version with a second board. However, the chips were not available. I looked everywhere and couldn't find them. A few months ago, someone put up a finished Dynalo board sans power supply, and I snapped it up. So I'll get a Dynamid, but heaven help me if a chip cooks off. I'll have to hope someone lists one I could cannibalize.

On the other hand, if something goes bad on the Zana, I can order any resistor or cap in it. I can have transformers rewound or buy new ones. Its tubes are generally available and should be for decades.

So if you really invest in solid state, a problem could give you an expensive doorstop. But a tube amp can almost always be brought back to life as long as it is point-to-point.

I'm in this for the long haul and like to keep what works, so tubes make the most sense for me. It costs more up front, but I'd rather spend $2k on something that can be kept working for a lifetime than $1k for something that might be unrepairable. You'll also find that this holds true with resale prices - tubes command a premium for a reason.

 

[Ypoknons]

Great posts, great resource. Thank you.

If the OP would excuse me, my concern is with the lively Orthodynamic scene, with the HE-5 quite popular and new models like the LCD-2 and HE-5LE on the way. Many recommend tubes for the HE-5 because they have the necessary voltage swing - how would we know if a SS amp has the necessary voltage swing? Counting out the excellent DIY SS amps (because of limited availability and support in areas with a weak DIY scene, a lack of personal technical skill and time etc...), would ~$500 tube amps give an advantage over similarly priced commercial SS amps for headphones that require heavy voltage swing like Orthodynamics? Or should a good $500 SS commercial be enough? I understand it's a difficult question to answer - pricing changes all the time and doesn't nessasarily reflect the component quality.

 

[buz]

Can anyone comment how the M-Stage BCL clone would fare against Sheer Audio's Dynalo? How much better would a GCHA be at twice the price?

Ypoknons: very good question, I would be very interested to hear about the performance of a Dynalo or the BCL with HE-5 myself, too.

 

[spookygonk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif Lots of things

Great post Erik, thanks.

 

[plonter]

I would suggest the earmax pro as an incredibly warm,syrupy,smooth...you name it. of course it depend on the tube you use also. at that time I was looking for a super warm,tubey sounding amp and the earmax has been suggested by one of the head fiers and it really helped me.

ofcourse there are also others tube amps with this sound signature, just wanted to give one auggestion from my experience. in fact I am listening to it right now, and the midrange is smooth like hot butter on a toast

(non the less with a rather cold and piercing recording)

I just got myself a few pairs of tubes with different sounds for different moods and I am set...don't want anymore tubes. I think that if i sum the money I spended on tubes for the earmax it will come to not more than 200-250$ which is not a lot imo.

 

[Currawong]

Personally, I'd ignore all this tube vs. solid state discussion and get advice from someone who a: listens to the same kind of music as you do, and b: has owned SA5000s and a variety of amps, as they are the only people who are going to give you sane advice.

 

[kunalraiker]

I decided on getting a tube amp,but then got a SS, I've heard both and they don't sound any different, may be marginally.

 

[stang]

SS and tube amps have a very different kind of sound. Tube amps are generally less detailed with lusher, warmer mids and the highs are tamed more and bass brought out a bit more. Personally, I prefer Grados with tube amps and Ultrasones with Solid State amps. No idea about the SA5000 though.