[Mike Scarpitti]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncan Because, not everyone can afford Stax, and - in some cases (such as my own, with a very brief audition) I just did not like the core sound at all... utterly vile! Then again, give me an Orpheus, and i'll be a very happy camper, one fantastic sounding rig

You can get a used Stax system on e-bay. I see them all the time. They hold up very well, so there's little risk.

The 2020 system can be had new for well under $1000, so what's holding you back?

 

[Beagle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerius but it just did something wonky to female vocals which bugged the hell out of me, and which the Stax 4040 didn't do. For whatever reason, female vocals sounded kinda thin & sucked out. As detailed as the voices sounded they didn't have the fullness I got from other headphones (including the Stax 4040) and they sounded kinda cold & artificial. At first I thought it was my CD, but after going through 5 CD's by 5 different artists and changing sources, it still had the same problem. Overall I thought they did everything pretty well (except my female vocals) given the price, but unfortunately that one issue is a very high priority for me so they don't work for me. I agree with your overall impressions of them but they're just not my thing

I forgot to address this issue. It is possible that you are expecting full bodied female vocals when they do not actually exist as such on the recordings. With accurate reproduction, you would likely hear the sound of a microphones interpretation of the live vocal. And when I talk to a female, the voice is rarely full bodied. If you are used to headphones (or any equipment for that matter) that make things diffuse and bloated up, then yes, I can understand how the Stax sound could be interpreted as thin. But I can assure you that it is not. Otherwise, everything in the frequency range would sound thin. I've been in heaven for the last week. I just LOVE these headphones and they don't get in the way of the music.

 

[aerius]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beagle I forgot to address this issue. It is possible that you are expecting full bodied female vocals when they do not actually exist as such on the recordings. With accurate reproduction, you would likely hear the sound of a microphones interpretation of the live vocal. And when I talk to a female, the voice is rarely full bodied. If you are used to headphones (or any equipment for that matter) that make things diffuse and bloated up, then yes, I can understand how the Stax sound could be interpreted as thin. But I can assure you that it is not. Otherwise, everything in the frequency range would sound thin. I've been in heaven for the last week. I just LOVE these headphones and they don't get in the way of the music.

Makes sense, but, I've now heard 3 Stax systems (2020, 4040, Omega II) and only the 2020 had this issue with female vocals. I've also heard 2 of the artists live, singing through microphones in a neutral sounding venue (Roy Thomson Hall) and once again, I didn't notice the weird sounding voice issues I did with the Stax 2020. To be honest I don't have a plausible explanation for this weirdness.

There was another headphone I've encountered that royally screwed up one instrument without grossly colouring everything else, and that was the W100. That headphone made female vocals, and most sounds in general a bit sweeter & smoother. It did something weird to guitars that I couldn't really place and made them sound a bit "off", but it absolutely butchered solo violins. The violin sounded like someone had shot it full of holes while other instruments in the same general frequency range were merely a bit coloured.

 

[Beagle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerius Makes sense, but, I've now heard 3 Stax systems (2020, 4040, Omega II) and only the 2020 had this issue with female vocals. I've also heard 2 of the artists live, singing through microphones in a neutral sounding venue (Roy Thomson Hall) and once again, I didn't notice the weird sounding voice issues I did with the Stax 2020. To be honest I don't have a plausible explanation for this weirdness.

You've obviously covered your bases if you've heard the vocalists live. I did mention in my comparison that if pushed hard, a trace of honk could be noticable in the upper midrange. Perhaps this is what was affecting female vocals. I listened to the first Holly Cole Trio record (Girl Talk) today and did not hear anything odd or colored in her voice, but again, I'm listening at moderate levels. I recall the KOSS Porta Pro that everyone raved about. It sounded OK with instrumental music, but vocals sounded like ducks in heat.

 

[Mike Scarpitti]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beagle I forgot to address this issue. It is possible that you are expecting full bodied female vocals when they do not actually exist as such on the recordings. With accurate reproduction, you would likely hear the sound of a microphones interpretation of the live vocal. And when I talk to a female, the voice is rarely full bodied. If you are used to headphones (or any equipment for that matter) that make things diffuse and bloated up, then yes, I can understand how the Stax sound could be interpreted as thin. But I can assure you that it is not. Otherwise, everything in the frequency range would sound thin. I've been in heaven for the last week. I just LOVE these headphones and they don't get in the way of the music.

Dynamic phones 'thicken' the sound compared to Stax phones.

 

[darkclouds]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beagle I've heard the 650 through the Max, Rega Ear and RA-1, and one other tubed amp, whose name escapes me for the moment. I just seem to prefer the clarity and transparency of the Stax. The 650 sounded a bit bloated and foggy in comparison, mostly in the mid to upper bass.

The 650 is neither bloated or foggy when you're running the right equipment behind them. I did like the my stax setup, 404/007t (especially with female vocals, although the 2020, IMO, doesn't do the midrange as nicely), but as I've said, there's something lacking; and I think it's that solidity or "punch". Stax seems to have this ethereal signature to them that bothers me, especially when listening to rock. I haven't tried the Rega ear, but had the Max for several weeks and did enjoy it, although it's slightly on the warm side of neutral. And some people call this warmth "bloatiness".

Simply put, there's no way I can live with just a Stax setup (I'd need a supplementary dynamic setup as well). On the hand, I'm niether using my Stax or missing them ever since the Stealth arrived. Maybe it simply comes down to taste/preference. I'm glad you're enjoying your setup.

 

[zeplin]

IMO, the Stax sound is just not for me, period. I think it utterly sucks compared to the 650 and other high quality dynamic setups. What Mike considers as not even worth being compared, I view that exact same statement, except turned around. Stax systems just can't be compared to great dynamic systems. The two are different beasts. None are truely realistic in their presentation and either kind is adored and dissliked by many. Some people like dynamic setups just as much as you like Stax setups, Mike, and can't get how you should like Stax setups that much more than dynamic setups...it goes both ways. Not everyone thinks as you do. The Stax systems lack life and groove, basically things very essential, IMO, that one needs and absolutely has to have when listening to music. It's like human beings needing water to survive!

Mike-
Can I ask you an honest question?
OK, good! Let me ask you this....
Is it a wonder to you that everytime you post your delusional one-sided feelings about Stax phones that you receive such hatred replies? Do you even know why you receive such responses? Of course, I will suspeect as what will usually happen. You will not address this question or any one like it regarding you one-sided, blind view of headphones. You'll just ignore it and keep on pretending that headphones aren't subjective and that Stax will always be, proven factually in your view, higher on the headphone quality chain. All you gotta do is discuss this with me and I'll stop asking you about your blindness to see that headphones are subjective and some people like dynamic setups waaaaaaaaaay more than stax setups.

 

[bangraman]

On a 30 second audition, the experience is very different and you might either not like it, or be entranced by the high detail of the Omega II's. Wearing them wrong (it's easy to do, I've found) doesn't help. Absolutely not worth the sentence that's typed if you're basing a view on the phones on the basis of a limited audition.


I've grown to like how the Omega II sounds, but I'm in agreement that a dynamic set-up is nice to have as well, or to even have the Omega II's as the second string set-up. I still find the Omega II's have a truncated (over-accurate?) low-end impact, and in that respect even the $60 DT231 (out of the headphone socket of the XA777ES!) can beat the O2's for extended low-end slam. Despite that I have to say that I haven't yet owned a dynamic headphone (the HD650 included) which I could consider a first string to the O2.

 

[Duncan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bangraman Absolutely not worth the sentence that's typed if you're basing a view on the phones on the basis of a limited audition.

I will never mention another word.

Finito

 

[davidmiya]

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkclouds The 650 is neither bloated or foggy when you're running the right equipment behind them. I did like the my stax setup, 404/007t (especially with female vocals, although the 2020, IMO, doesn't do the midrange as nicely), but as I've said, there's something lacking; and I think it's that solidity or "punch". Stax seems to have this ethereal signature to them that bothers me, especially when listening to rock.

Apparently I've had a much similar journey. I've actually owned the following combos:

KGSS/OmegaII
Stealth/HD650 + Silver Dragon
HR-2/HD650 + Silver Dragon
PPA/HD600 + Cardas
HR-2/ER-4S

Electrostatics were magical with female vocals and jazz tunes with no electric bass or kick drum. They also sounded great with solo piano and certain new-age synthesized tunes.

However, the Omegas lacked that impact that you get when a note is hit hard and fast. If you listen to live music, a note or chord that's hit hard and fast will rush at you like a wave of sound. You don't get that feeling with electrostatics. You do with dynamic phones.

The bass on the Omegas are pretty flabby and unbalanced. I always double check the bass balance on recordings with my speaker system. Stax bass is wayyy too shallow and weak.

Case in point, I've since sold my Omegas and prefer to use my Etymotics. My favorite system is now: HR-2 + ER-4S. You get more detail than the Omegas, deeper bass, and tons of punch. The only things you really lose are soundstaging and that sense of liquidity. But what the heck?! This rig costs about $2000 less than my Stax rig. Additionally, using a great source like the Meridian 588 has helped to compensate for the lack of liquidity. However, I must note that I do keep my HD650's handy for certain types of music where I don't really care about delicate details.

But, my thoughts are based upon the opinion that music must have impact. So, if impact isn't a big factor in your listening, then Stax are the best phones to own. I wish I could have kept my Stax rig just for the music genres mentioned above. However, you have only afford to keep so much

 

[bangraman]

I suppose people will still hear colour/EQ instead of sound quality/resolution. Is it hard to distinguish? I suppose so... it's taken me a while to divorce these attributes.


I've never felt the O2 to lack resolution. The SRM-007t (and maybe the KGSS?) doesn't sound 'exciting'. In this respect, of course dynamic phones have a decided advantage... you can chop and change amps as you please for colour and/or resolution. I've just unearthed the DEQ2496, stuck it inbetween the Mu-Fi DAC (I'm getting problems in some cases trying to get things to lock on to the Squeezebox so I've resorted to analog EQ) and the SRM-007t. What I can quite easily reproduce is a dynamic level of slam and the 'resolution' of the ER-4S. Both at once, if you like.


Just putting on "Going Under" by Evanescence (apologies if this offends your music sensibilities) reveals the bass is recoverable with EQ. Overdriving the bass reveals the limitation of the O2 in this respect, but an increased low end with 'slam' is possible on the O2 headphones.


The preferences seem to be more about flavour, and if you can achieve it without all the hassle of EQ's, all the better I suppose. I quite like the default sound of the SRM-007t for the kinds of music I tend to really sit down and listen to at home.

 

[Hirsch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Scarpitti I'll let Beagle speak for me. It would a complete waste of my time even to think about listening to dynamic phones as serious competion to the Stax.

It's been said before, but you really need to listen to some headphones. The only Stax headphone that can provide a serious challenge to the Sony R10 in terms of detail is the Omega II. The SR-404/SRM-007t has a hard time challenging the Sennheiser HD-650 for detail when the HD-650 has some serious amplification in front of it. The Sennheiser HE60 actually has a more open high end than the SR-404, and seems to have more finesse throughout. The Lambda Series are very good headphones, but if they have some theoretical superiority over dynamic headphones, Stax hasn't implemented it, IMO. The O2 and Sennheiser electrostatics fare much better.

 

[Mike Scarpitti]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hirsch It's been said before, but you really need to listen to some headphones. The only Stax headphone that can provide a serious challenge to the Sony R10 in terms of detail is the Omega II. The SR-404/SRM-007t has a hard time challenging the Sennheiser HD-650 for detail when the HD-650 has some serious amplification in front of it. The Sennheiser HE60 actually has a more open high end than the SR-404, and seems to have more finesse throughout. The Lambda Series are very good headphones, but if they have some theoretical superiority over dynamic headphones, Stax hasn't implemented it, IMO. The O2 and Sennheiser electrostatics fare much better.

Unfortunately, amplification has nothing to do with it. The inherent limitations of the diaphragms have everything to do with it.

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Scarpitti Unfortunately, amplification has nothing to do with it. The inherent limitations of the diaphragms have everything to do with it.

I can assure you that all you believe to know about audio is nothing but belief.

 

[NotoriousBIG_PJ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerius There was another headphone I've encountered that royally screwed up one instrument without grossly colouring everything else, and that was the W100. That headphone made female vocals, and most sounds in general a bit sweeter & smoother. It did something weird to guitars that I couldn't really place and made them sound a bit "off",

It seemed to me that on top of the inaccurate colouration, the headpone is adding some funky resonances to the guitars, causing fuzziness among other strange anomilies. Stange headphone.

Biggie.