[Digital-Pride]

Quote:

Oddly enough, I'm finding the NFB12 to produce great results with my HD800 (admittedly though I have not compared it with other good amps so I have no frame of reference), despite the NFB12 being absolutely a bad match for the HD650. The reason for this IMO is not that the NFB12 is low quality, but because it rolls off the treble a bit by about 3db around 10khz-20khz. This is BAD for the HD650 because it only makes it darker and blurrier, and this is GOOD for the HD800 because the HD800 is a bit on the bright side.

X2 That about sums it up.

 

[Digital-Pride]

Quote:

Comparing my 558's to my 650's... I really prefer the 650's. Its hard to put into words, the 650's simply have so much more detail and are so much more full. It seems like I hear more sound.. low low bass frequencies that the 558's are simply not producing for instance.  The 558's still sound great to me and on their own they sound fantastic, but after listening to a song with my 650's on and switching back, it sounds like I'm missing so much.

Interesting.  I found the 650 when I had it not very detailed or revealing, though I suspect that my modest setup at the time was the chief culprit.  What's your setup?

 

[Tilpo]

Oddly enough, I'm finding the NFB12 to produce great results with my HD800 (admittedly though I have not compared it with other good amps so I have no frame of reference), despite the NFB12 being absolutely a bad match for the HD650. The reason for this IMO is not that the NFB12 is low quality, but because it rolls off the treble a bit by about 3db around 10khz-20khz. This is BAD for the HD650 because it only makes it darker and blurrier, and this is GOOD for the HD800 because the HD800 is a bit on the bright side.

What surprises me the most is the claim that you can hear that 3dB difference at 10-20kHz.
I don't think it's at all possible to discern a volume change of 3dB's at that frequency.

 

[dorino]

Quote:

What surprises me the most is the claim that you can hear that 3dB difference at 10-20kHz.
I don't think it's at all possible to discern a volume change of 3dB's at that frequency.

That's a very wide range. At 10khz it'd be relatively easy for "young" ears or people that have been careful with their hearing. Up to 16khz I'd say it'd be possible, but beyond that not many people can't even hear the sound to begin with.
 

 

[syphen606]

   Quote:

Interesting.  I found the 650 when I had it not very detailed or revealing, though I suspect that my modest setup at the time was the chief culprit.  What's your setup?

 Nothing fancy..  just my 2010 13" Macbook Pro -> Fiio E10 Lineout -> JDSlabs C421 (AD8620 Model) -> Senn HD650's.     Using the same setup for all my headphones.  Also had a set of ATH-A950LTD's here as well to test out. THEY are bright.. VERY bright. Reminds me of the HD558's trebles but then added more... at the expense of mids and bass.   I still find out of all the headphones I've tried on this setup (ATH-M50, HD558, HD650, ATH-A950LTD, and some crappy JVC's and skullcandy stuff) that I'm getting the best detail and quality sound from the HD650's.

 

[ac500]

Quote:

What surprises me the most is the claim that you can hear that 3dB difference at 10-20kHz.
I don't think it's at all possible to discern a volume change of 3dB's at that frequency.

All I can say is my MacBook Air sounds noticeably brighter than my NFB12 to my HD650s. I've tested this multiple times and I was NOT expecting it... it surprised me. I haven't done double-blind, but I think my bias being the opposite direction (wanting the NFB12 to sound less veiled) and the fact that the difference is pretty severe should make the judgement somewhat reliable.
 
Maybe the MBA is bright, thus making the difference even greater? I don't know. 
 
Does anyone know of sound files I could use to see if I can tell a difference in volumes at various frequencies? 

 

[Digital-Pride]

Quote:

   Quote:


 Nothing fancy..  just my 2010 13" Macbook Pro -> Fiio E10 Lineout -> JDSlabs C421 (AD8620 Model) -> Senn HD650's.     Using the same setup for all my headphones.  Also had a set of ATH-A950LTD's here as well to test out. THEY are bright.. VERY bright. Reminds me of the HD558's trebles but then added more... at the expense of mids and bass.   I still find out of all the headphones I've tried on this setup (ATH-M50, HD558, HD650, ATH-A950LTD, and some crappy JVC's and skullcandy stuff) that I'm getting the best detail and quality sound from the HD650's.

 
Nice setup.  I'd like to give an Audio-Technica(probably an AD series) a try one of these days.  I'll probably give the 650 another go sometime in the future, now that my setup is improving.
 
 

 

[Tilpo]

All I can say is my MacBook Air sounds noticeably brighter than my NFB12 to my HD650s. I've tested this multiple times and I was NOT expecting it... it surprised me. I haven't done double-blind, but I think my bias being the opposite direction (wanting the NFB12 to sound less veiled) and the fact that the difference is pretty severe should make the judgement somewhat reliable.
 
Maybe the MBA is bright, thus making the difference even greater? I don't know. 
 
Does anyone know of sound files I could use to see if I can tell a difference in volumes at various frequencies? 

I don't think very high frequency response (>10kHz) makes something sound bright or dark. The human ear, while being able to perceive it, is not very sensitive to these high frequencies.
Additionally very few music has a lot of energy in these frequency ranges, and most of what is going to be there are nth-order harmonics of other notes, relatively weak in power compared to the lower harmonics.

Other than that the NFB-12 is fairly flat according to these measurements. It does show a relatively early drop in volume at the higher frequencies, but I really doubt it will make that much of a difference.
Either the MacBook Air is just bright (i.e. not neutral) or it's you imagination.

Have you tried the higher sampling rates?

 

[sphinxvc]

Laptop HP outputs are meant for very efficient earbuds and headphones, not HD650s.  A telltale sign of under-amping something is a thin, weak sound where the bass is de-emphasized.  

 

[ac500]

I have noticed months ago that 96/24 sounds a bit more detailed/brighter in the upper treble than 44/24, however I cannot distinguish any noticeable difference between 96/24 and 192/24. 96/24 or 192/24 still sounds veiled to my tastes, whereas from the macbook the veil is at least halfway removed.
 
I think I am very sensitive to upper treble 10+khz, and that by the way is where I find the HD650 most lacking. If I boost that region it sounds much better. Of course my HD800 needs no boosting up there.

 

[sphinxvc]

Tilpo, you should read this thread, for whatever it may be worth to you.

 

[Tilpo]

Tilpo, you should read this thread, for whatever it may be worth to you.

Thanks for the link, very interesting. Although I don't completely agree with everything: just because our ears have the capabilities to detect extremely small movements of the eardrum, that does not mean that our brain is going to care. Most of the information sent by the ear to the brain is discarded, and only very little remains. I doubt it's possible to detect the difference between a THD of 0.1% vs. 0.01% with a transducer, but that's what my intuition tells me. I have never did any comparison with THD, nor have I really played around with high frequencies on my headphones, other than the ones the ear canal is resonant in. Maybe I'll play around with my EQ a bit this afternoon, and see whether at 10+kHz it really is possible to discern changes of 3dB. I think it will be possible, but just not a very large change.
I based most of my arguments on what I've read in this thread. Might seem unrelated, but it does cover most of the things I mentioned.

 

[scoopbb]

woah. i just received them today and they were EXACTLY what i was expecting.
 
good low end, and finally highs that dont make my ears bleed. everything sounds so much better to me. using a fiio e10 as a dac and powered by the o2 objective amp. im considering getting the hrt ms2 or ms2+ now
 
the only thing is did they design this to fit a baby head? I keep trying to bend the metal of the headband out more so its more comfortable but it sounds dope.

 

[davidgotsa]

They'll get more comfortable after a week or so. They were bothering me the first few days but now I've had them on for several hours and barely feel them. 
 
Quote:

woah. i just received them today and they were EXACTLY what i was expecting.
 
good low end, and finally highs that dont make my ears bleed. everything sounds so much better to me. using a fiio e10 as a dac and powered by the o2 objective amp. im considering getting the hrt ms2 or ms2+ now
 
the only thing is did they design this to fit a baby head? I keep trying to bend the metal of the headband out more so its more comfortable but it sounds dope.

 

 

[kingoftown1]

Quote:

woah. i just received them today and they were EXACTLY what i was expecting.
 
good low end, and finally highs that dont make my ears bleed. everything sounds so much better to me. using a fiio e10 as a dac and powered by the o2 objective amp. im considering getting the hrt ms2 or ms2+ now
 
the only thing is did they design this to fit a baby head? I keep trying to bend the metal of the headband out more so its more comfortable but it sounds dope.

I think the best thing to do is to just wear them and deal with the clamp for the first week or so.  They definitely loosen up to fit your head perfectly.  And by avoiding bending the headband you don't risk chipping the paint or cracking the headband.