[MrScary]

Hello....

Boy so many thoughts....I grew up in the tube era, and even worked for GE, was and still am an Extra Class Amateur Radio Operator, have a degree in Electrical Engineering...and drew so many tube load lines and graphs, built tube amps from scratch, transmitter, and even was a Radar Technican...so when I read things like:

"The Vintage tubes were made in an era where the tube technology had to be of the utmost quality as everything ran on tubes at that time radar systems, televisions, radios on and on... The secrets behind the the building of those tubes died with the men that made them so we are now in an era of copies etc.. This is especially true in the Audiophile world..."

I smile and laugh and reminisce...

Variables...yes there are many....so, so many.....however I really dont think that many of the variables really make all that difference to most people...only a few real audiophile 'nuts' like us.

I had three sets of speaker cables home, all the mega-buck $2000 type and was A/B'ing them over and over and over...and thinking I could tell the difference etc...but when doing blind testing well..not so certain..(smile).

The 6N1P's from Schiit are really decent....and yes they may not be in the same league to your ears ...but to say a tube is better because its old and cost more or some combination, well I just cant buy that to the degree that it really is that much better etc...

Just because a tube is used in a radar doesnt mean it has secrets that tubes being made today dont have.....I had 21 tubes in my transceiver that ran 24/7 for weeks on end...it was hot, drifted all over the place. The mil spec tubes still had to be the same electrically spec's....they had to amplify in the same linear ranges dependent of plate voltage etc....where they really differed was in the mechanical construction in the mica wafers, being thicker, to support the tube elements in their little vacuum world....more ruggedized for vibrations, less microphonics etc..when in a radio on the back of a jeep or tank running around in the woods!!! ...electrically they were/are the same. Some had metal or metallic covers/canisters for shielding, RFI Interferences both from inside and out. Some were picked out for lower noise characteristics for applications that specifically were sensitive in this area.....

Gosh I replaced hundred of these 'so-called' miracle tubes back then....

This magic from days past is a real myth....it makes for great stories...and the folks selling these tubes are making a great sum of money ....oh boy...Tubes today are copies of tubes from the old days...they are still tubes...put them on a curve tracer and see if they match the NOS originals....tubes made in the 30's and 40s' compare to those made in the 50's etc...which are really NOS or copies etc...

Lets get together at someones place, with all our tubes and lets let a person swap tubes out. Take a NOS tube set and a new el crapo tube set and let someone swap the sets out for 10 times and pick out the ones that sound better to you...keep track and see if you really are hearing what your hearing...

Please dont take this the wrong way....I hear differences in tube sounds....but they are not 'that' big of a difference...yes I prefer the 6N1Ps....but would like to see a Lorenz plot on a curve tracer vs the $20 Schiit el crapo 6N1Ps to see the 'electrical' diffrences if there are any...then we can chat.

So who live on the east coast of the USA so we can get together to do some real A/B testing with controls.....should be fun and interesting!!

All the best
Alex

Alex,

I hear where you are coming from as an Engineer I'm a Computer Engineer so I understand about tube tracing etc on and on the things that can scientifically be quantified.. But with tubes there are many variables that in all honesty we do not understand in the audiophile world.

Lets just take a quick look at the PC88 Lorenz tubes.. And by the way I'm not arguing just discussing. And no I'm not getting the spec's our for the Lorenz I'm off today hahah.. Anyway the Lorenz tubes require a 7 volt heater.. So if you call up Jason at Schiit and ask him "Can I use the PC88's" he will say no! Why? well number one he has never tested them with the Lyr in fact this thread thanks to Jamato was one of the reasons Schiit defaulted to the GE's instead of the 6N1p's to most people the Ge's sound better. But getting back to the Lorenz so they require a 7 Volt heater the Lyr is what 6.x something volts for the Heater.. So when we plug in the Lorenz the Lyr is setting the bias according to what it can put out.. Just as a comparison I'm also a guitar player and one of the big things with guitar amps is setting the Bias higher to get more gain but the consequence is usually lower life for said tube... So In the Lorenz case we have this strange thing going on... Firstly the Lyr is setting the bias low The Lorenz tubes are not getting 7 volts at the heater However, they sound not just a bit but leaps and bounds above almost every tube that has been rolled in this thread... So as much as I am a guy that likes to look at the Scientific method we have a one off here... So where does that leave us.? Bottom line is there is more going on then some tube tracer can give you... I think this is a great discussion topic...


Godspeed

 

[obazavil]

Well... I DO notice a difference between Mullards & Valvo & Lorenz
 
Maybe I'm biased hehe
 
Interesting points, everybody...

 

[adydula]

Gentlemen...
 
Good discussions and points...yes I have not heard the wonderful Lorenz tubes but hope to one day....I stand open to that anytime.
 
But the lost art and secrets being gone forever, well thats still a hard one to swallow...ah the mystique of vintage stuff...its adds to the overall tone of warm glowing tubes...and days past...
 
I am not loyal to any one tube..just to facts and science.
 
I am not here to rock the boat...and like great sound like we all do.
 
I can not believe that it is impossible to make a tube that sounds as good as any NOS tube sounds.....
 
The materials in the construction of tubes is readily available, the glass, the vacuum, the mica, etc ....this is no real rocket science....tubes have been around for a long time..and now they can put markings on a tube that dont easily wear off!!! LOL. Even the old tooling is still out there.
 
It can be done.
 
I wish we were all a lot closer it would be a neat excercise to be able to test you all!!!
 
Enjoy.
Alex
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

[obazavil]

Quote:

But the lost art and secrets being gone forever, well thats still a hard one to swallow...ah the mystique of vintage stuff...its adds to the overall tone of warm glowing tubes...and days past...
 
I am not loyal to any one tube..just to facts and science.
 

 
Let's hope that you can meet with someone like MrScary with hundreds of tubes, to make comparisons by yourself.
About the lost art... well, i have no idea at all. I really hope is not lost, I love tubes

 

[Mad Lust Envy]

What I wanted to know about the 6N1P vs 6BZ7 that Schiit supplies was how they compared in QUANTITY of bass, in mids, and in treble? Like a comparison. I don't know or really care about technicalities, just the gist of their sound. Like which one is brighter, which one was bassier, etc.

 

[Oskari]

 
Quote:

Lets just take a quick look at the PC88 Lorenz tubes.. And by the way I'm not arguing just discussing. And no I'm not getting the spec's our for the Lorenz I'm off today hahah.. Anyway the Lorenz tubes require a 7 volt heater.. So if you call up Jason at Schiit and ask him "Can I use the PC88's" he will say no! Why? well number one he has never tested them with the Lyr in fact this thread thanks to Jamato was one of the reasons Schiit defaulted to the GE's instead of the 6N1p's to most people the Ge's sound better. But getting back to the Lorenz so they require a 7 Volt heater the Lyr is what 6.x something volts for the Heater..

Perhaps you should, in fact, check the datasheets for the PC88 and the PCC88...
 

 

[ZorgDK]

Quote:

What I wanted to know about the 6N1P vs 6BZ7 that Schiit supplies was how they compared in QUANTITY of bass, in mids, and in treble? Like a comparison. I don't know or really care about technicalities, just the gist of their sound. Like which one is brighter, which one was bassier, etc.

I don't like the Schiit 6N1P with the HE-6. The sound is fatiguing, too sharp treble. The GE 6BZ7 is more pleasant to listen to for me. I don't know about difference in bass, I haven't payed attention to that.
 
 
 

 

[Mad Lust Envy]

Okay, so the 6BZ7 is softer in treble. That's a start. I plan on the Lyr with the DT990/600, so a softer treble is DEFINITELY ideal. I usually like a sharp treble, but the DT990 doesn't need any more of that, lol.

 

[HK_sends]

      Quote:

Perhaps you should, in fact, check the datasheets for the PC88 and the PCC88...

Actually, I think he meant PCC88s...

 
Cheers!

-HK sends

 
 

 

[adydula]

I find the 6N1Ps very engaging, warm and pleasantly musical without any fatigue at all. The have a nice overall balance and are pleasing after hours of listening.
They have uncanny 3 dimensional characteristics that wrap around your head and are very revealing. The treble is 100% neutral, accurate.
 
The 6BZ7s are very musical, but not as open and spacey as the 6N1P's. The Treble is not very pronounced over exagerated at all, very neutral or flat. The bass is taunt and
accurate, garbage in, garbage out.
 
Bass on both tubes is equal in weight,
 
Treble is equal in both.
 
The only difference is the soundstage or 3d effect
 
Alex

 

[Mad Lust Envy]

Thanks. I had the 6N1P before and liked them with the HE4 and D7000, but I believe the 6Bz7 will be better for the treble extreme DT990.

 

[adydula]

Mad..
 
There is a site that allows you to compare frequency plots of headphones, I posted a few plots on several threads....comparing the LCD2's to several other headphones...
 
If you this thread not only do tubes 'seem' to make audible sound differences but cables, interconnects, electronics, power supplies etc and on and on and on...within limits of human hearing and BS. (smile)...
 
If you look at a freq plot of a transducer and its honest and accurate, then at least you can see what the speaker element in the headphone can reproduce.
 
If you try to boost, or reduce or manipulate the sound based on swapping tubes, this may work to some degree, but depending on you transducers it may be a hard thing to really do if your lookng for accuracy....
 
I look for the best freq curve and a can that is as neutral in response as possible, not boomy etc...yes there is a cost and budget....and trade offs...
 
There comes a point where its let get back to the music and that in itself has soooooo many variables in recording, mastering, etc...
 
All the best
Merry Christmas!!
Alex

 

[adydula]

Found the site:
 
http://www.headphone.com/learning-center/build-a-graph.php
 
Take a look at the graphs and the bass end....low frequency....if you think that the low end can be totally corrected via a tube change..
well......think again.
 

 
All the best...how about a set of curves in a ref system like these with different tubes....
 
Alex

 

[Mad Lust Envy]

I don't have a problem with the DT990's low end whatsoever. Its unobtrusive, unlike most bass heavy cans. I just want a slighter softer upper end. Its not something that ineeded a lot of science for. Just wanted to know which tube had softer treble, is all. I'm 95% fine with the DT990 as is.

 

[adydula]

Mad,
 
Understand about the science....but it helps make better informed and less emotional decisons...
 
The cans you have are very nice....if you think the bass is unobtrusive with the bass repsonse as plotted then the LCD2's would be less unobtrusive and less 'boomy' or less full...pick your adjective. (Not saying one is better for you than the other...)
 
If your to pick a tube that they say has lots of bass etc with a set of cans that arent flat or have a good low end plot then this may exacerbate the low end...good or bad depending on your taste or 'ear'...
 
Let us know how your 6BZ7's perform in your setup.....
 
All the best
Alex