[rovopio]

Aside from the stuff that Jason has touched on his post, the fault in Pono is that it's heavily marketed as a "mainstream" product. The fact is that it's anything but.
Pono is an audiophile product. As a DAP for people in the personal audio hobby, it's a fine player at a price range that still make sense. But it's not a mainstream product at all.
Because of how it was marketed, it's being judged as a mainstream product, and thus, now there are these scathing reviews from left and right.
 
This is how i think average people judge the Pono
 
The OS is simple and intuitive.
The 2.5 inch touchscreen is atrocious. It has abominable viewing angle.
The display auto-rotate is not instantaneous.
The device doesn't have wake / sleep button. Have to wait for it to time out.
There's no typing-based search for the music library.
There's no wireless connectivity. Can't stream spotify.
The Pono isn't cheap for a mainstream product.
 
 
If it's advertised as a personal audio DAP, say, competitor to fiio x5 or ibasso dx90 or whatever else DAP that cost $300~$500... they won't receive as much backlash. Their product page doesn't help either. "Your Soul Rediscovers Music".

Really? That's a very hobby-territory statement. Objectively speaking. pono will sound good to people like us that likes hi-fi reproductions or have audio gear hobby. But can it deliver it's message of rediscovering music for 95% of people? Probably not.  Yes, recent article in a website is saying 54% of people wants better sound quality. Does the same 54% of people even knows what bitrate means?
 
Better sound quality is one thing. The soul rediscover music is completely another ballpark.

 

[drez]

  Aside from the stuff that Jason has touched on his post, the fault in Pono is that it's heavily marketed as a "mainstream" product. The fact is that it's anything but.
Pono is an audiophile product. As a DAP for people in the personal audio hobby, it's a fine player at a price range that still make sense. But it's not a mainstream product at all.
Because of how it was marketed, it's being judged as a mainstream product, and thus, now there are these scathing reviews from left and right.
 
This is how i think average people judge the Pono
 
The OS is simple and intuitive.
The 2.5 inch touchscreen is atrocious. It has abominable viewing angle.
The display auto-rotate is not instantaneous.
The device doesn't have wake / sleep button. Have to wait for it to time out.
There's no typing-based search for the music library.
There's no wireless connectivity. Can't stream spotify.
The Pono isn't cheap for a mainstream product.
 
 
If it's advertised as a personal audio DAP, say, competitor to fiio x5 or ibasso dx90 or whatever else DAP that cost $300~$500... they won't receive as much backlash. Their product page doesn't help either. "Your Soul Rediscovers Music".
 
Really? That's a very hobby-territory statement. Objectively speaking. pono will sound good to people like us that likes hi-fi reproductions or have audio gear hobby. But can it deliver it's message of rediscovering music for 95% of people? Probably not.  Yes, recent article in a website is saying 54% of people wants better sound quality. Does the same 54% of people even knows what bitrate means?
 
Better sound quality is one thing. The soul rediscover music is completely another ballpark.

 
I like your analysis, yes it would appear that the Pono Player is more of an audiophile product than a mainstream one, which seems odd seeing as the project is aimed at the mainstream market.

The other crazy thing is that hi-res makes no sense for portable gear, it takes up much more space, and honestly makes only a subtle difference even with high end home hifi gear.  Take this DAP into a noisy environment, playing music in the background while trying to perform other tasks, and this makes even less sense.
 
My personal goal with portable audio is to spend as little as possible, as the bang for buck versus home hifi equipment is not good.  I would rather spend time properly listening on my home equipment rather than be constantly saturated with background music.

 

[wahsmoh]

   
I like your analysis, yes it would appear that the Pono Player is more of an audiophile product than a mainstream one, which seems odd seeing as the project is aimed at the mainstream market.

The other crazy thing is that hi-res makes no sense for portable gear, it takes up much more space, and honestly makes only a subtle difference even with high end home hifi gear.  Take this DAP into a noisy environment, playing music in the background while trying to perform other tasks, and this makes even less sense.
 
My personal goal with portable audio is to spend as little as possible, as the bang for buck versus home hifi equipment is not good.  I would rather spend time properly listening on my home equipment rather than be constantly saturated with background music.

To some people though portable hi-fi is their life and soul because of frequent travel for work. I would argue though it depends on your lifestyle because most of the time my work doesn't allow me to enjoy hi-fidelity headphones and I usually wear earbuds that I am not afraid to get damaged on the construction site. I go to school part time too so I could use some more expensive IEMs to justify owning them for studying in the library.

 

[kstuart]

Originally Posted by Jason Stoddard /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
The Whole Foods Explosion
 

I have probably as much experience in the Health Food world as in the Audiophile world, and I think that you are mischaracterizing the Health Food world.
 
Clearly, you have never seen a "Paleo vs Vegan" Forum discussion.

 
Both Headphones and Kale are big fads and big sellers.  Why ?   Because they thrive in BOTH worlds of Paleo and Vegan, and Audiophiles and Skeptics.
 
Whole Foods is not analogous to Pono - as someone pointed out, Whole Foods could sell Pono - and they can sell it right next to horrible sounding Apple earbuds.
 
Whole Foods is analogous to Best Buy or Fry's  - not Pono.
 
As another person pointed out, Pono is a victim of the "50% of people favor and the other 50% oppose everything" modern reality.
 
As someone who was in the firing line of NWAVGUY, that should be obviously true.

 

[drez]

  To some people though portable hi-fi is their life and soul because of frequent travel for work. I would argue though it depends on your lifestyle because most of the time my work doesn't allow me to enjoy hi-fidelity headphones and I usually wear earbuds that I am not afraid to get damaged on the construction site. I go to school part time too so I could use some more expensive IEMs to justify owning them for studying in the library.

Tues if portable listening is the only time you have for music, then may as well make the most of it.  Thinking back a few years when I was in college, I probably would have used hi-res and tried to squeeze every last drop of SQ also.

 

[wink]

Quote:StanD

   

  The obvious extension of Jason's logic is that Whole Foods needs to sell Ponos.

That's food for thought.

But after processing, it still comes out as S*****...!!!!

 

[Currawong]

That "entry level" bit is definitely important. Even if a place like Head-Fi never sets up its own section for it, a shortlist of some simple, easily available, and affordable products could be carried over to different forums. 

 

 
And, even in the larger forums, there’s typically no single place a true neophyte can go for friendly advice, simple explanations, and an easy guide to “stepping in” to better sound. It’s almost always convolved with discussions of expensive products, heated opinions and infighting, references to industry standards and formats they’ve never heard of, nightmare stories about incompatibilities and other problems, and general information overload. There’s a lot more we can do to make getting started a more pleasant experience.

 
I made an "Introductions, Help and Recommendations" forum a while back, since we were getting a crapload of questions filling up the equipment forums. Suggestions for improving that are most welcome. 
 
Other than that, I've come to the conclusion, after a lot of listening, reading, discussion and experimentation, that 90% of what makes up people's impressions of gear comes down to the music they like and how loud they listen. This is both objective and subjective too! I've been thinking to write my own guide for newbies for quite a while now based around that. How to balance making it simple enough, while not over-simplifying it or heading too far into jargon is going to be a challenge. Maybe we should have a panel in March at Canjam about it?
 

 

Originally Posted by Jason Stoddard /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
The Whole Foods Explosion
 

I have probably as much experience in the Health Food world as in the Audiophile world, and I think that you are mischaracterizing the Health Food world.
 
Clearly, you have never seen a "Paleo vs Vegan" Forum discussion.

 
Both Headphones and Kale are big fads and big sellers.  Why ?   Because they thrive in BOTH worlds of Paleo and Vegan, and Audiophiles and Skeptics.
 
Whole Foods is not analogous to Pono - as someone pointed out, Whole Foods could sell Pono - and they can sell it right next to horrible sounding Apple earbuds.
 
Whole Foods is analogous to Best Buy or Fry's  - not Pono.
 
As another person pointed out, Pono is a victim of the "50% of people favor and the other 50% oppose everything" modern reality.
 
As someone who was in the firing line of NWAVGUY, that should be obviously true.

 
I don't think Jason was comparing Pono to Whole Foods in a direct sense, but more so using the health food industry as an example of changing public perceptions.
 
Just for fun: Posted by a friend on Facebook who is on the Paleo diet (I'm not-quite-vegan). We both like wine though. Enjoy the irony!
 

 

[gikigill]

Wallan Wine Hub is my local winery. Also known as Heathcote Wine Hub.

 

[nicolo]

  2015, Chapter 4:
Bridging the Gap
 
Sixth, address the elephant in the room. This one’s for audio companies. Hello. The reason you’re not seeing sales to younger people is simple: your stuff is too bloody expensive. Period, full stop. The world doesn’t need another $1500 DAC/amp. It needs stuff that college students can afford.

 
Jason: I completely agree with you. So much so that you can sell the Yggdrasil and Ragnarok to me at $299 each (i can go that high).
 
I may not be a starving student. Certainly am a STARVING HUSBAND

 

[superjawes]

I may not be a starving student. Certainly am a STARVING HUSBAND

Try upgrading to a model that cooks!

 

[svetlyo]

[Off topic]  Jason, please fix the specs page for Magni 2 - the high gain is listed as "6 (14db)" and I think it should be 5x (14db).

 

[StefanJK]

  2015, Chapter 4:
Bridging the Gap
 
 
Sixth, address the elephant in the room. This one’s for audio companies. Hello. The reason you’re not seeing sales to younger people is simple: your stuff is too bloody expensive. Period, full stop. The world doesn’t need another $1500 DAC/amp. It needs stuff that college students can afford.

The world does need a good affordable dac like Yggy (if it isn't totally overhyped).  I'm happy to sell my Gugnir to a college student...my kids won't appreciate it until they are much older.  For the moment good audio is something their 48 year old dad likes, no social standing in that (which is different from when I was a kid, at least in my circles).

 

[crazychile]

Still, it'll never be mainstream until it's affordable to the average consumer.  For most people it's a matter of priorities for their discretionary (if any) spending. 

 
 
I made this point more than a decade ago in a case study of SACD for an MBA level Marketing class. My case for SACD survival was for Sony to license the technology cheap to other companies so it could flood the market with new hardware at little or no increase in cost. Then make the money back on volume of (hybrid) software sold.

 

[StefanJK]

As a relative newcomer, one of the problems in the (however defined) industry is that it does appear that lots of people make judgements based on price and brand aura, more so than is healthy for the overall consumer experience, even it can be individually rational to do so (especially if they are a newcomer), but it is a deterrent for newcomers who care about value (even audiophile value).   If you don't know what you're doing and need to gain experience, the simplest way to start out is to find some credible experienced people and imitate them (or ask the for advice).  If some/many experienced people appear to be making judgemes on price or brand loyalty it makes the new consumer's problem much harder.  Finding credible online communities does help, but there are fewer of those than there ought to be (hence the importance, it seems, of Purrin et. al.). The 'everything is great' culture of reviews is a total turn-off/flashing warning sign. It's not like we've not been warned.
 
Good informed customers who can articulate what they know and why they know it are the best thing for an industry.

 

[kstuart]

  As a relative newcomer, one of the problems in the (however defined) industry is that it does appear that lots of people make judgements based on price and brand aura, more so than is healthy for the overall consumer experience, even it can be individually rational to do so (especially if they are a newcomer), but it is a deterrent for newcomers who care about value (even audiophile value). 

Okay, let's take another comparable area - cars.
 
Every week during its season, I watch "Top Gear" where three British blokes talk about and drive cars where a cheap one is $100,000.
 
When you talk to average people who have never spend more than $10,000 for a car, they do not think that you are crazy if you spent $150,000 on a Ferrari, and they do not think that the differences are imaginary.
 
So, the problem with the "audiophile" world is that average people think you are crazy for spending $10,000 on a piece of audio gear, and they think the differences are imaginary.
 
THAT is the problem.
 
AND the more advanced technology in the world, the more people will think "Any gear that goes 20hz - 20,000hz +/- 0.01db sounds identical to all other such gear".
 
Another way of looking at - they can see a Ferrari going 0-60 in 3 seconds, and that can be measured.  Most people cannot drive a Ferrari at 150mph, but they can see someone else doing it.
 
However, most people cannot hear the difference between a $10,000 amp and a $10 amp, the difference cannot be measured, and they have to take your word for it if you say it sounds different.
 
NOW, since you bring up Wine - the exact same situation exists there (I used to write wine reviews).  In fact, most people think a $10 wine tastes better than a $10,000 wine.   BUT somehow the Wine industry has managed to get people to accept that Chateau Lafite Rothschild tastes better than box wine - even if they themselves do not want to drink it.