[Joe Bloggs]

Mmmh ... I do listen to music with my ears and that's the exact purpose of my hifi set-up. Emitting a signal that my ears can catch and which I enjoy listening to.
Btw. I agree completely about the ears not being consistent like a certified instrument but that's the same with all of our senses.
What do you use when listening?

Sure my ears are there for enjoying the music, or to evaluate the merit of a certain tweak / change after it has been ascertained that a tweak is actually doing anything to the sound. But there are many tools that can check the bolded part much more quickly with greater certainty than one's ears.

 

[Dillan]

Sure my ears are there for enjoying the music, or to evaluate the merit of a certain tweak / change after it has been ascertained that a tweak is actually doing anything to the sound. But there are many tools that can check the bolded part much more quickly with greater certainty than one's ears.

Yep, I don't think he is taking things like bias or placebo into consideration.

 

[icebear]

   
Honestly, along with many other things.. I just try to use my brain.

 
Without your ears, your brain will not have anything to process, does it?

 

Sure my ears are there for enjoying the music, or to evaluate the merit of a certain tweak / change after it has been ascertained that a tweak is actually doing anything to the sound. But there are many tools that can check the bolded part much more quickly with greater certainty than one's ears.

Ultimately what are the tweaks supposed to do ... to result in an improved sound impression. If you don't trust your own ears for development then get some folks of your staff who have a reliable hearing and use them for acessing the acoustic effect of the tweak.
 

 
Yep, I don't think he is taking things like bias or placebo into consideration.

 
Yes I do. Over and out, you guys have fun

 

 

[Dillan]

   
Without your ears, your brain will not have anything to process, does it?

 
Ultimately what are the tweaks supposed to do ... to result in an improved sound impression. If you don't trust your own ears for development then get some folks of your staff who have a reliable hearing and use them for acessing the acoustic effect of the tweak.
 
 
Yes I do. Over and out, you guys have fun

 

 
Honestly I can't take you seriously with all the winky and smiley emojis.
 
The ever echoed "trust your ears" in my opinion is very flawed. We humans are not perfect and should not trust our ears. There are studies all over the internet about how bias and placebo alter someones hearing. Here is one I was reading just recently about how patients were given two different hearing aids, one being a "new" and "updated" version. Even though they were both the exact same: 75% thought the newer "better" version allowed them to hear the best and they were even measured to score better in hearing tests.. showing they even tried to hear better using it to the point of them literally hearing better. This could explain why sometimes people hear a difference in something that is technically impossible. Not only do their minds play a role in tricking them into thinking they hear a difference - they focus more on the sound and actually do hear something different, because they are trying so hard to (whereas initially they tune things out due to expectation bias and aren't using their hearing to its utmost potential). Its very interesting actually, but just another reason for us not to trust our inconsistent hearing. Preference is one thing @icebear but ultimately we are just trying to help consumers like you think a little bit more and perhaps save some money as well. 
 
Here is the link to the study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23594421
 
Sorry if you are leaving the conversation.

 

[Peti]

Dillan, I used to be the believer of this bias and placebo...but all I can say is what I have experienced: The first time I have had the chance to listen to my test tracks via a TOTL headamp I have realized that this bias and placebo thing cannot be used as a blanket explanation to justify outrage against top end amps. Now mind you, I'm not talking about this 145k audio system.
 
Hell, even my Liquid Carbon was soo good after my O2/ODAC that I couldn't tell you and it was not placebo, I have heard things on my favourite tracks I haven't heard before.

 

[Ruben123]

Dillan, I used to be the believer of this bias and placebo...but all I can say is what I have experienced: The first time I have had the chance to listen to my test tracks via a TOTL headamp I have realized that this bias and placebo thing cannot be used as a blanket explanation to justify outrage against top end amps. Now mind you, I'm not talking about this 145k audio system.

Hell, even my Liquid Carbon was soo good after my O2/ODAC that I couldn't tell you and it was not placebo, I have heard things on my favourite tracks I haven't heard before.

Maybe your updates are somewhat flawed, causing your headphone to sound different. Maybe.

 

[LajostheHun]

Without your ears, your brain will not have anything to process, does it?

Yes, the ear collect the soundwaves, but it's the brain that makes sense of it but it can be fooled extremely easily even without one realising it. And that's where most of the problem lies with "audiophiles".

 

[Brooko]

Sorry I had to leave last night - enjoying the conversation.
 
Quote:

  but, why do you guys ban/silence people when they start talking about others audio sites?

 
We don't ban people for mentioning it.  We warn them that one particular site in particular is not allowed to be referenced. Once they are warned, it they repeatedly break the rules - we issue a sterner warning - and after that if they still choose to break the rule - then their access here is removed. The important thing is that they are warned - they have the chance to change their ways.  As far as the reasons go (for that site being off limits) - I don't know the full history - but I think if you look at the amount of slander (which is actually encouraged to a certain extent) over there - and a lot of the petty innuendo is nothing more than outright lies (around Admin here and Moderation etc) - I can understand the approach.  People forget this is a privately run site.  If Head-Fi was your website, and people were publically pushing their own agenda on the other site, and doing it very underhandedly - would you want to allow unfettered access on your site?
 
You just need to step into someone else's shoes for a while.  The other thing with restricting all mention is that it stops anyone here teeing off on them.  Is it a form of censorship - some may see it like that (I don't).  Again though - Head-Fi is a privately run site - we choose to be here.
 

I get so tired of this argument. It's OK for a subjectivist to make outlandish claims which cost other people money, but it's not ok to counter those claims to try to save people money.

 
It is OK to counter those claims.  I do it all the time.  If you counter those claims aggressively and cause a fight in the forums (personal attacks etc) expect to be moderated.

 

[LajostheHun]

Dillan, I used to be the believer of this bias and placebo...but all I can say is what I have experienced: The first time I have had the chance to listen to my test tracks via a TOTL headamp I have realized that this bias and placebo thing cannot be used as a blanket explanation to justify outrage against top end amps. Now mind you, I'm not talking about this 145k audio system.

Hell, even my Liquid Carbon was soo good after my O2/ODAC that I couldn't tell you and it was not placebo, I have heard things on my favourite tracks I haven't heard before.

Well there is a definite interaction between headphones and amp, and it's mostly have to do with how an amp delivers voltage and power into an ever changing load, like an HP. However even that is rather small, so when people are making claims that "amp a wipe the floor with amp b" or just "the difference is huge" etc.. their claims become a suspect along with their credibility . I myself observed differences with amps driving the same HP's but the differences were small in each cases, and nothing like I would declare a winner of one over the other. Expectation bias will happen whether you aware of or not, or wishing for it or not. I bet some of the people here on this thread encountered it as well, even though they "know it better". We are all fallible creatures.

 

[Brooko]

It becomes difficult though when you come up with something you just can't explain - and have nothing to fall back on but a purely subjective view.  I've been writing up a close to $1000 tube amp from VE over the last 3 months (simply haven't had time to complete it).  Compared it to me iDSD and LD MKIV.  Same headphones (HD600).  Volume matched.  I know both the iDSD and LD MKIV deliver enough voltage and current to the headphones.  I can get my wife to help by switching sources so I'm not sure which is which.  I've been consistently lost in the music (those wow moments) with the Enterprise - and while I enjoy music with the other two - it hasn't given me the same feeling.
 
It's probably down to presentation of harmonic distortion - and unfortunately my gear won't be able to measure that with the accuracy I'd like (I'll try).  Ultimately though - this does come down to what I actually like - and the Enterprise subjectively I like.
 
It doesn't help that it is big, unwieldy, and pretty expensive.  If I could take that sound into the iDSD form factor ........
 
Anyway food for though - and this is from someone who hates it when I can't explain the reasons why.

 

[cel4145]

Dillan, I used to be the believer of this bias and placebo...but all I can say is what I have experienced: The first time I have had the chance to listen to my test tracks via a TOTL headamp I have realized that this bias and placebo thing cannot be used as a blanket explanation to justify outrage against top end amps. Now mind you, I'm not talking about this 145k audio system.

Hell, even my Liquid Carbon was soo good after my O2/ODAC that I couldn't tell you and it was not placebo, I have heard things on my favourite tracks I haven't heard before.

There's a scientific explanation for that. If you look at enough measurements for TOTL amps, you'll see that they are not always linear, and they may have audible distortion. It's just a pleasing sound to people. So of course they may sound different from a solid state amp that measures accurate and transparent within the range of human hearing.

That being said, bias can still play a part even when electronics do have audible differences. Psychological bias could cause one to over estimate how much better a piece of electronics is.

 

[cel4145]

We don't ban people for mentioning it.  We warn them that one particular site in particular is not allowed to be referenced. Once they are warned, it they repeatedly break the rules - we issue a sterner warning - and after that if they still choose to break the rule - then their access here is removed. The important thing is that they are warned - they have the chance to change their ways.  As far as the reasons go (for that site being off limits) - I don't know the full history - but I think if you look at the amount of slander (which is actually encouraged to a certain extent) over there - and a lot of the petty innuendo is nothing more than outright lies (around Admin here and Moderation etc) - I can understand the approach.  People forget this is a privately run site.  If Head-Fi was your website, and people were publically pushing their own agenda on the other site, and doing it very underhandedly - would you want to allow unfettered access on your site?

You just need to step into someone else's shoes for a while.  The other thing with restricting all mention is that it stops anyone here teeing off on them.  Is it a form of censorship - some may see it like that (I don't).  Again though - Head-Fi is a privately run site - we choose to be here.

There's also a good reason to do it from a web design perspective. Head-Fi has been around a long time and is extremely active. I would imagine that Head-Fi has very high status in Google page ranking. So when web pages on a highly ranked site link to another site, that helps the other website's Google rank. So of course. If another website is negatively speaking out against yours in "underhanded" ways, why would you want to potentially help it? This is reason enough alone, in my book.

 

[LajostheHun]

It becomes difficult though when you come up with something you just can't explain - and have nothing to fall back on but a purely subjective view.  I've been writing up a close to $1000 tube amp from VE over the last 3 months (simply haven't had time to complete it).  Compared it to me iDSD and LD MKIV.  Same headphones (HD600).  Volume matched.  I know both the iDSD and LD MKIV deliver enough voltage and current to the headphones.  I can get my wife to help by switching sources so I'm not sure which is which.  I've been consistently lost in the music (those wow moments) with the Enterprise - and while I enjoy music with the other two - it hasn't given me the same feeling.

It's probably down to presentation of harmonic distortion - and unfortunately my gear won't be able to measure that with the accuracy I'd like (I'll try).  Ultimately though - this does come down to what I actually like - and the Enterprise subjectively I like.

It doesn't help that it is big, unwieldy, and pretty expensive.  If I could take that sound into the iDSD form factor ........

Anyway food for though - and this is from someone who hates it when I can't explain the reasons why.

Right, but just because one cannot explain it, doesn't mean there is none. The worse thing one can do is to invent a myth around it based on pseudo or junk science or just pure ignorance. Having said that I don't discourage people to share their subjective experiences, just don't sell it as "gospel".
Your reviews are always about useful info with a bit of your own thoughts that actually have relevance. Very refreshing and valuable IMO.

 

[reginalb]

 
It is OK to counter those claims.  I do it all the time.  If you counter those claims aggressively and cause a fight in the forums (personal attacks etc) expect to be moderated.

 
Yeah, and to be honest, I've not felt squeezed too much. I don't actually have a problem with the attitudes of mods as much as I do the people that get mad at me for counting those claims. The only time I've been moderated are by you and Castle, and it's been for feeding trolls. 

 

[jcx]

not my experience - I was "lawyered" out of a technical response to another poster's question in an "impressions" thread on the technical grounds that I may not own the product - when I never impled the answer was specific to the product
 
as far I could tell a significant fraction of the posters hadn't bought the product either - were seeking info - seemed a hypocritical application of a not even explicit "rule"