[upstateguy]

 
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First of all, thanks for all those who shared their comments about how the different versions of the modified Hiface sound in their system
<snip>

Hi Amine
 
Nice to see you posting here again.

 
USG

 

[Shahrose]

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Humm, I think it was you who said you'd like to know if the diffMaker ever finds any differences. 
 
That would be a way to find out that it does.  Then, of course, you could experiment and see which differences really existed and which were imaginary.  Finding out isn't fatal.... just humiliating.

 
You know, your resistance to science is almost approaching phobia level. 

 
Anyway, in a few weeks we'll have around 1000 O2s floating around and we'll see if anything else gets debunked. <shrug>
 

Funny you should say that, considering I'm in medicine and working to get some pediatric research published
 
But I'm being a bit facetious. My point is I don't really care what crude tests like these tell me when I can consistently hear sound differences/improvements from transports/cable etc. Everyone around me does too (and most of them aren't even audiophiles). Lets say DiffMaker finds nothing. That doesn't mean I'll just suddenly stop hearing improvements from the MK3 or all the aftermarket cables I have. So then, what's the point? I'd rather use my time enjoying music than running tests to try and make myself believe everything is an illusion (when it's not IMHO...I bet more sensitive and precise measurements could pick up the differences you deny).
 
 
 

 

[drez]

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Your proposed options aren't exhaustive. I favour another hypothesis D) which is that while jitter does differ between transports, its a secondary issue and not the main cause of audible differences. Transports are in general bit perfect but have different EMC signatures. The EMI couples into the DAC via the cabling between the two and its this EMI coupling which is the primary cause of audible differences. 
 

I would probably categorise that with B) introduction of a new factor.  A) is removing the mutual exclusivity, and C) is resolving the conflict by discrediting the claim to hear differences.  I would say D) would be to resolve the conflict by saying that the test are wrong, which IMO is about as hard to prove as C).
 
As I have shown in my argument, saying that people are hearing incorrectly, contrary to what Willakan might claim is not able to be proven any more than any of these other options.  Introducing theoretical factors of innaccuracy and possible bias bias does not prove that these conditions are continuously met.  This is like saying that because a study shows that people often don't see things they are not focused on, or tend to confuse exact details of short events, that every single person will see nothing they are not focused on, and will incorrectly remember all the details which is an unsupportable thesis even from the research he is quoting.  It would be like a psychologist going around declaring people insane because they have the potential to become insane.
 
But either way I don't need to prove anything to anyone.  You can either accept my statements and attribute a factor of innacuracy to it, or you can instead offer some even more unsupportable thesis based on misinterpretation of research.
 
Having said this though, the jitter performance of the DI is likely quite bad as it is both adaptive and uses film caps.  Jkenny put a scope to the DI an the picture was not pretty.  Whether this level of jitter, or that of the canto is below what is found to be audible in the scientific tests referenced would be interesting to consider.

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

Funny you should say that, considering I'm in medicine and working to get some pediatric research published
 
But I'm being a bit facetious. My point is I don't really care what crude tests like these tell me when I can consistently hear sound differences/improvements from transports/cable etc. Everyone around me does too (and most of them aren't even audiophiles). Lets say DiffMaker finds nothing. That doesn't mean I'll just suddenly stop hearing improvements from the MK3 or all the aftermarket cables I have. So then, what's the point? I'd rather use my time enjoying music than running tests to try and make myself believe everything is an illusion (when it's not IMHO...I bet more sensitive and precise measurements could pick up the differences you deny).
 
 
 

 
"The lady doth protest too much, methinks."
 
The diffMaker is far from crude, and it's not a test.  It is a very effective nulling program that nulls out everything but the difference between two files, which you then can listen to with your own ears.
 
Why should you want to try it?  Because you have an intelligent and curious mind, and in your heart of hearts would like to rule out the Self-Deception factor.  The truth is a good thing to know..... which ever way it goes.
 
Why don't you want to try it?  Because you aren't prepared to come face to face with the reality of the situation..... yet. 
 
But, you're in medicine, and as a scientist, it's only a matter of time before you will seek the truth.
 
Pretty soon we'll be flooded with the ultra cheap portable O2 amps and we'll be able to compare them to our best  desktop amps.  I, for one,  am very curious to see if nwavguy could actually take $30 worth of parts and design it to  sound as good as my GS-1, which I think he said was his target amp.
 
There's a lot of baloney floating around our hobby, that both of us would like to know the truth about. 
 
 

 

[uelover]

Good things are meant to be kept secret =)

 

[pigmode]

I'm trying to figure out what the O2 amplifier has to do in particular with the Jkeny Hiface mod? That's a rhetorical question, believe it or not, so don't answer. Let's get back on subject, shall we?

 

[Sapientiam]

Quote:

 
The diffMaker is far from crude, and it's not a test.  It is a very effective nulling program that nulls out everything but the difference between two files, which you then can listen to with your own ears.

I tried it and gave up precisely because its nulling feature isn't always as effective as you're claiming. Sure if you give it two bit identical files, it can null them perfectly (well to -300dB anyway). But if the files are slightly different I found its nulling was appallingly bad, considering that in my case the only difference was re-dithering. I nulled them better (around 20dB better) by hand using Audacity.
 

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

I tried it and gave up precisely because its nulling feature isn't always as effective as you're claiming. Sure if you give it two bit identical files, it can null them perfectly (well to -300dB anyway). But if the files are slightly different I found its nulling was appallingly bad, considering that in my case the only difference was re-dithering. I nulled them better (around 20dB better) by hand using Audacity.
 

Have to get back on topic, PM sent.

 

[slim.a]

Quote:

 
Hi Amine
 
Nice to see you posting here again.

 
USG

Thanks! I had been away from head-fi mainly because there was not enough hours in the day to do both listening and commenting on the listening. Now that my schedule got a little bit lighter, I will be present a little bit more around head-fi
 
 

 

[drez]

Has anyone played around with BNC attenuators?  For the mk3 I find the 20dB too much and it kills the soundstage width and smears imaging.  Currently I am using 6 dB, however I have not ruled out 10 or 15 dB of attenuation (though I have these on hand), nor that this might be specific to the DAC I am using.  To my ears the 6dB improves the soundstage width and depth a little.

 

[Audioexcels]

Just reading some responses about the night/day differences of the MKIII being as profound as being like a difference between headphones or any speaker for the matter.  A speaker has a fundamental sound.  You can give it whatever volt you want, but the end result is still the fact that that speaker is going to have the same fundamental sound that it inherently has.  Look at it like this.  A hurricane destroys a location and after, it looks very different with all the things laying around, bridges/piers/etc. broken, you name it.  But one thing the hurricane was not able to change is the location itself.  That location is still going to have, pending some complete obliteration, the sand/beaches, ocean, architecture (whatever may be left of it), etc. etc. etc.  In other words, a hurricane can make things look different and change things, just as audio equipment can do to a speaker, but it cannot do anything to the fundamental feel/look/way that location just as components cannot do anything to the fundamental feel/look way it sounds UNLESS the hurricane takes out the entire location or the speaker is blown
 
I'm 90% speakers, 10% the rest to get the best volt to a speaker to enable the listener to hear as much of what the speaker sounds like as is possible.  Every speaker is compromised, but with luck, we find a speaker that fundamentally/inherently sounds predominantly how we like to hear the sound, and we simply go from there.  And being that every speaker is compromised, we must live with the fact that regardless of all that we do to change the sound of the speaker, it's always going to sound the way it sounds at its roots.
 
So to keep with this thread, it is very good that we have devices like the MKIII because if it can indeed provide a very transparent transport source, and at such a great price, then it is most definitely going to give one the pleasure of being able to hear a very dramatic difference in how much more the speaker is revealing if the other transport was somehow doing a very poor job of keeping things transparent.
 
Now why did the stupid markets have to get inflated again on "hope" and China bailouts of corrupt banks (not the people) to once again have me on the sidelines waiting for the darn EUR to somehow go down to a lower level so I can purchase the MKIII?
 
Cheers all and happy listening!

 

[Audioexcels]

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Has anyone played around with BNC attenuators?  For the mk3 I find the 20dB too much and it kills the soundstage width and smears imaging.  Currently I am using 6 dB, however I have not ruled out 10 or 15 dB of attenuation (though I have these on hand), nor that this might be specific to the DAC I am using.  To my ears the 6dB improves the soundstage width and depth a little.

If you have a few attenuators as it seems you already do, the best thing to do is simply what you have been doing=experimentation.  If you plan to add other components into the system down the road, always remember to try out the different attenuators since things can change and maybe the 6db one that works well for you now may not be as good as another value.  It's all personal choice and not a standard by which any one attenuator is "the one" to use.  It is to say, your ears obviously know that the 20db one sounds poorest, while the 6db one seems to sound superior than the stock one and maybe one that is slightly higher like an 8-10db one would be optimal at this time.  These things are cheap enough to buy and play around with, then keep them all around for future as I say, so you can continue to play with them when/if you change system components.

Cheers!

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

Has anyone played around with BNC attenuators?  For the mk3 I find the 20dB too much and it kills the soundstage width and smears imaging.  Currently I am using 6 dB, however I have not ruled out 10 or 15 dB of attenuation (though I have these on hand), nor that this might be specific to the DAC I am using.  To my ears the 6dB improves the soundstage width and depth a little.

 
Didn't jkeny say the MK3 didn't need an attenuator because he fixed the voltage problem????  

 

[Audioexcels]

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Didn't jkeny say the MK3 didn't need an attenuator because he fixed the voltage problem????  

That's what he wrote on the website and told me too so yeah, it is a little confusing!

 

[DaveBSC]

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That's what he wrote on the website and told me too so yeah, it is a little confusing!

I think John originally thought that attenuators wouldn't be necessary with the MK3 version, but even with the output voltage now within the correct S/Pdif spec, the attenuators may still be able to reduce cable reflections and improve performance.