[Sovkiller]

Well if that is the case and you think so, and you are happy thinking so, so be it...ignoring reality will not make you wiser...

 
aimlink, I do not need credibility, nor I need to be sensible about an absurd...what I say is just my opinion based in my experience, good or bad...I'm not asking anybody to believe me, in my first post I encourage others to try and listen, that is the only way of making your mind...period...and trust me that I did it in the past, and arrived to that same conclusions I have know, and I follow now... 
 
I think that I have heard a little bit in my short life, to know what will make a noticeable difference in a setup, and what will not. Cables are borderline, if any, on the side of the no differences in my book...If you want a better sound, I will encourage you to get a better transducer, a better source, or a better amplifier. Spending what you will on better cables on that (or just simply a better recording, made by Hoffman, a SACD, or a MoFi one) will give you far better results, the cables will not make a difference, if any, as to make you like, what you did not before...and I'm being pretty conservative with this statement...
Sorry guys but power cables, is such a big absurd to me, (and to many other guys that have heard a few many times what I have, and some others that even make a living making cables professionally for many customers, as the case of BJC's...on this case if you look with objective eyes, making power cords will make another source of income for them, but why bother, if they personally do not believe in them, that is honesty in my book...) so why wasting my time on ignoring that reality...that is one of my big personal beefs in audio...
 
BTW I do have tried a few, and on top that to me was not sane, to even try what I was convinced that will make no difference, they didn't make any difference to me in reality as to make me change my mind...and not only in theory...So I ended my case...
 
 
(...ops a typo...)

 

[tmars78]

 
Quote:

Well if that is the case and you think so, and you are happy thinking so, so be it...ignoring reality will not make you wiser...

 
 

 
Maybe it won't make me(or the old man) wiser, but as long as no one gets hurt, I don't see the problem. I understand wanting people to be informed and make logical choices, not get duped out of hard earned money, but in the end, if it makes them happy, who are we to argue? I wouldn't spend an absorbent amount of money on cables, not only do I not have the gear they say you need for them, I don't believe they make an audible difference.

 

[Trogdor]

Here is the bottom line, if you like buying expensive cables and can hear a difference, more power to you.
 
For the rest of us, until a cable lover can quantify what makes one cable sound better than another AND IDENTIFY the sonic signature reliably through DBT, I think a HeadFi'ers money is better spent elsewhere.
 
PS All these years and Sovkiller is still fighting the good fight! 

 

[haloxt]

These people can't understand you, beeman. Consider ending this debate because if it continues a moderaator will likely delete it all. I think you've already said your piece and defended it properly, let people judge for themselves.

 

[beeman458]

Thanks!
 

 

[mustardhamsters]

Expensive digital cables are worse.

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

Well if that is the case and you think so, and you are happy thinking so, so be it...ignoring reality will not make you wiser...

 
aimlink, I do not need credibility, nor I need to be sensible about an ansurd...what I say is just my opinion based in my experience, good or bad...I'm not asking anybody to believe me, in my first post I encourage others to try and listen, that is the only way of making your mind...period...and trust me that I did it in the past, and arrived to that same conclusions I have know, and I follow now... 
 
I think that I have heard a little bit in my short life, to know what will make a noticeable difference in a setup, and what will not. Cables are borderline, if any, on the side of the no differences in my book...If you want a better sound, I will encourage you to get a better transducer, a better source, or a better amplifier. Spending what you will on better cables on that (or just simply a better recording, made by Hoffman, a SACD, or a MoFi one) will give you far better results, the cables will not make a difference, if any, as to make you like, what you did not before...and I'm being pretty conservative with this statement...
Sorry guys but power cables, is such a big absurd to me, (and to many other guys that have heard a few many times what I have, and some others that even make a living making cables professionally for many customers, as the case of BJC's...on this case if you look with objective eyes, making power cords will make another source of income for them, but why bother, if they personally do not believe in them, that is honesty in my book...) so why wasting my time on ignoring that reality...that is one of my big personal beefs in audio...
 
BTW I do have tried a few, and on top that to me was not sane, to even try what I was convinced that will make no difference, they didn't make any difference to me in reality as to make me change my mind...and not only in theory...So I ended my case...

That quoted block sounds scarily like beeman in sentiment and I agree with it too.  It's just that some have done exactly what you did and came away with different findings.  I've spent a lot on music and other gear and can assure you that, like cables, it's a hit and miss whether or not you'll end up feeling that you just got your money's worth.

 

[BIG POPPA]

In this forum there are more people new to this hobby than not. So yeah a lot of head-fiers do not get the purpose of a good power cable and how to maximize the benefit of it. Yeah a whole lot of people will ask for proof this way and that way. In the real world of retail you buy it or do not. What is so hard about that? Really? It just seems some just want to be experts just by what they find on the internet and not doing the homework, demoing, or by DIYing?

 

[Head Injury]

Quote:

In this forum there are more people new to this hobby than not. So yeah a lot of head-fiers do not get the purpose of a good power cable and how to maximize the benefit of it. Yeah a whole lot of people will ask for proof this way and that way. In the real world of retail you buy it or do not. What is so hard about that? Really? It just seems some just want to be experts just by what they find on the internet and not doing the homework, demoing, or by DIYing?

Ugh, don't talk so digital!

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

In this forum there are more people new to this hobby than not. So yeah a lot of head-fiers do not get the purpose of a good power cable and how to maximize the benefit of it. Yeah a whole lot of people will ask for proof this way and that way. In the real world of retail you buy it or do not. What is so hard about that? Really? It just seems some just want to be experts just by what they find on the internet and not doing the homework, demoing, or by DIYing?

 
Indeed.  While I can understand the reluctance of those who wish to spend their hard earned money on cables or any gear which is of questionable benefit based on current evidence,  I do not understand the heavy pontificating, condescension and implied name-calling of an anti-cable position without any solid personal experience to go with it.
 
Current evidence would suggest a questionable benefit with a lot of gear being promoted here.

 

[Uncle Erik]

Big Poppa, the problem with buying to test is that the buyer gets fleeced in the process.  Used cables go around 50% of retail, so there's a huge downside to buying a cable to try it out.

 

[BIG POPPA]

Most reputable audio stores will let you demo cables. I know some internet retailers that have demo cables. You can demo cables at Head-Fi meets like the http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/495219/seattle-area-meet-red-hook-meet . Yeah I did organize another one. Yes I do have a few laying around.  For trying out different power cables I can point in the right direction. For CONUS it is easy to demo cables.

 

[Sovkiller]

Guys for a person to try to be happy, is one perfectly normal and logical thing, and I do encourage you do go so, and try to find what will make you happy in life in general...
 
But as an old fellow here, and as Trogdor stated, I'm still fighting this battle, simply I do believe is one that needs to be fought, but I do it in part, as I think that is in part an obligation that I have with this community.
Having said that I will just make a healthy advise for the new fellows, and I do not think that will be objectionable, nor questionable, by any reasonable person, just to ask you to be wise while spending your hard earn money, and try to get whatever you are looking for, but from reputable dealers, and ones that have strong returning policies, and those who stand behind their products, if you can find them...Specially on expensive cables and power cables, just find the dealers that let you return them in case you are not satisfied...
Now be advised, that many of them fail to state clearly also the "burning in" period, (another absurd in my book) and in the best cases you can find any number, you may be required sometimes thousands of hours to complete it, that is maybe a few months of use, and as logic indicates, after that period the returning period will not be longer valid if there was any to begin with...
 
In this hobby, as in many others, there is a lot of voodoo, snake oil, mythology, and people making a living out of nothing else than the credibility of a few decent persons, most of the times they use some smart guys that had taken the task of immortalizing them too seriously (God knows what else is indeed behind those intentions!!!)...Just to mention one that I recall, I was asked once by a very reputable audiophile authority (that I will not divulge the identity) to serve as a mediator, between that person and a headphone company that I knew a few fellows in the US distributing crew, with the purpose of getting a very expensive model, and offer in exchange an endorsement during a professional work (just with the final intention to keep it at the end of it) As a side note, I was told by that same person, that is a common practice in the audio industry, that professionals get gear in exchange for endorsements, and that this same way, this person, had gotten a few others, some hi-end Senns included. And all was asked even without the item in question being heard, not knowing if it will be to the preference or not of that person. Of course I refused, inventing a few excuses myself, but I did passed the message along, and the other end decided, at that time, to send a more modest model as a courtesy for the interest, free of any charge...As a curious detail we never heard from that person again...No endorsement, not even a confirmation of having received it or not, and not even a thanks...and of course, no headphone back...
 
In other words, please guys while you read something, always take that as a grain of salt...your ears will be the best judge for any of your decisions...
 
Also we have seen dissected cables here, we ran a DBT with three different audio cables, and the test showed that only a few percentage could identify the cables (of course that test had limitations, and of course and we can argue about them all night...) But to me it doesn't matter which cable was supposed to sound like this or that, in some other DBT's we have seen also that even during the initial setup adjustments, people had failed to properly identify the same cable twice...LOL...and in one done, if I'm not mistaken, a few years back, they even wrote about differences after being always hearing the same zip cable in some speakers...We have also the Wireworld CD, that supposedly "recorded" the differences between a few well known brands of cables and their own cables. I leave the result to your imagination, but it never make me change my mind...The CD for some reason is no longer available from the manufacturer, is now long time out of print, but I still have a copy...

 

[Trogdor]

Quote:

Guys for a person to try to be happy, is one perfectly normal and logical thing, and I do encourage you do go so, and try to find what will make you happy in life in general...
 
But as an old fellow here, and as Trogdor stated, I'm still fighting this battle, simply I do believe is one that needs to be fought, but I do it in part, as I think that is in part an obligation that I have with this community, and in part my obligation.
Having said that I will just make a healthy advise for the new fellows, and I do not think that will be objectionable, nor questionable, by any reasonable person, just to ask you to be wise while spending your hard earn money, and try to get whatever you are looking for, but from reputable dealers, and ones that have strong returning policies, and those who stand behind their products, if you can find them...Specially on expensive cables and power cables, just find the dealers that let you return them in case you are not satisfied...
Now be advised, that many of them fail to state clearly also the "burning in" period, (another absurd in my book) and in the best cases you can find any number, you may be required sometimes thousands of hours to complete it, that is maybe a few months of use, and as logic indicates, after that period the returning period will not be longer valid if there was any to begin with...
 
In this hobby, as in many others, there is a lot of voodoo, snake oil, mythology, and people making a living out of nothing else than the credibility of a few decent persons, most of the times they use some smart guys that had taken the task of immortalizing them too seriously (God knows what else is indeed behind those intentions!!!)...Just to mention one that I recall, I was asked once by a very reputable audiophile authority, that I will not divulge the identity, to serve as a mediator, between that person and a headphone company that I knew a few fellows in the US distributing crew, with the purpose of getting a very expensive model, and get in exchange an endorsement during a professional work, just with the final intention to keep it at the end of it. And all was asked even without the item in question being heard, not knowing if it will be to the preference or not of that person. Of course I refused, inventing a few excuses myself, but I did passed the message along, and the other end decided, at that time, to send a more modest model as a courtesy free of any charge....As a curious detail we never heard from that person again...No endorsement, and no headphone back, not even a confirmation of having received it, and not even a thanks...
 
In other words, please guys while you read something, always take that as a grain of salt...your ears will be the best judge for any of your decisions...
 
Also we have seen dissected cables here, we ran a DBT with three different audio cables, and the test showed that only a few percentage could identify the cables (of course that test had limitations, and of course and we can argue about them all night...) But to me it doesn't matter which cable was supposed to sound like this or that, in some other DBT's we have seen also that even during the initial setup adjustments, people had failed to properly identify the same cable twice...LOL...and in one done, if I'm not mistaken, a few years back, they even wrote about differences after being always hearing the same zip cable in some speakers...We have also the Wireworld CD, that supposedly "recorded" the differences between a few well known brands of cables and their own cables. I leave the result to your imagination, but it never make me change my mind...The CD for some reason is no longer available from the manufacturer, is now long time out of print, but I still have a copy...

Sovkiller, awesome post!  It should be a sticky in the cable forum.
 
I used to be religious about the subject.  I mean I am in the camp that if you go down to your local Radio Shack, you can find perfectly good cables (it hurts when you say and Radio Shack in the same sentence, I know).
 
If folks are absolute sure they can tell the difference between one cable and the next, again, more power to you.
 
HOWEVER, for any n00b or person getting started I always ask them to PLEASE DBT your equipment.  Heed Sovkiller's words.  Do what EVERY OTHER INDUSTRY does with respect to gauging  performance, test it.  Verify the claims made by the manufacture can be verified by your ears on your system - don't listen to me, don't listen to Sovkiller, don't read this thread as gospel or make metaphysical justifications for your purchase, listen to your ears and be the judge! 

 

[JamesL]

 
Quote:

I'm relatively new to these forums, but has it always been this way?
 
Yes it has.  This need by the anti-cable guys to control others has been going on for decades.  Cable guys aren't allowed to have their world as anytime cable guys try to hold a conversation amongst themselves, you can bet there's going be an anti-cable guy trying to control the room with their insults and use the results of their flawed tests as their reason to rain on the room's parade.
 
Note the venom when I refused to get pulled into a debate and I refuse to defend my position.  If one doesn't want to believe me, I'm happy for them.  If one wants to believe their science is true and accurate, I'm happy for them.  One problem, it's not their money being spent on these cables.  So why should they care what one spends their money on?
 
It's your money, spend it anyway you want.  It's your hobby.  Enjoy it and ignore those who want to take your fun away.
 
Currently I'am eagerly awaiting the arrival of some custom headphone cables from Double Helix Cables.  Can you imagine the vitriol that will occur should I come here and write that I love the cables and think it was money well spent?  What the anti-cable guys don't get, it's my money, my life, my enjoyment and it's not theirs to try and destroy.  The funny thing, it ticks them off because I'll neither debate them or let them rain on my parade.

 
Beeman.. take a closer look.
 
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/500815/review-of-k-works-products
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/427613/review-cardas-twinlink-power-cord-on-dna-sonett
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/499138/interconnect-cables
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/499629/what-do-you-guys-think-about-this-ipod-line-out-cable
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/499789/rca-signal-cable-w-m-audio-ac-01
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/62167/zu-mobius-in-the-house
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/469313/review-of-the-oyaide-db-510-an-analog-sounding-digital-cable/30 (long'ish thread, I only skimmed the first few and last few pages)
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/471870/whiplash-twag-vs-crystal-piccolino
 
 
 
I just listed every, cable-discussion thread I could find in the past 5 pages of this forum.
 
There is NOT ONE PERSON(nonbeliever) who interrupted any of these threads to try and convert anyone.
Not a single one
 
There may be a small handful out there who may feel the urge to intrude, but that doesn't represent the majority of us.
 
We let all of you cable believers spend your money how you want, talk about the different cables as you want, and believe what you want.  Heck, the mods here even went as far as administering a dbt-free rule on these boards.
 
Only when a newbie or someone comes to these threads asking if cables make a difference do we put in our opinion.
If someone asks if its worth paying for expensive cables, then we have the right to say no.
If someone asks how a cable makes a difference, we have the right to say it doesn't.
 
 
 
We are NOT forcing anybody to conformity.  
Just making sure that people make an informed decision