[Shaffer]

[...]

My own question for you: after having lived with Lyras for a long time, how did you perceive the vinyl noise as reproduced by AT 33PTG II ? Lyras are sort of kings/reference in this regard, if the AT did not lag (far) behind, it must really be a great cart. 

And at the price, it IS a steal. Of the current ATs, perhaps the only one I would consider . 

The PTGII is very sensitive to SRA. Worse, as it breaks in and the elastomer softens a bit, if you will, further adjustments are necessary. Once setup, it's very quiet in the groove. Not as quiet as a Lyra, but close. The quietest cart I've heard, in this respect, is an OC9 II. Unfortunately, it lacks the resolution of the PTG II.

 

[analogsurviver]

The PTGII is very sensitive to SRA. Worse, as it breaks in and the elastomer softens a bit, if you will, further adjustments are necessary. Once setup, it's very quiet in the groove. Not as quiet as a Lyra, but close. The quietest cart I've heard, in this respect, is an OC9 II. Unfortunately, it lacks the resolution of the PTG II.

Thank you for the answer. I did expect the PTG II to be sensitive to SRA - and the usual re-adjustments once the suspension settles down, it is perfectly normal. The lack of resolution (coarse, "one note samba" if you will ) is my reservation regarding the entire OCx family - otherwise it is a great cartridge design.
 
THE quietest thing in the groove is another AT - AT ML170/OCC . It is great using conventional load for a MM cartridge, but becomes invincible if loaded really correctly. Too bad it is out of production for decades - and if and when it does turn up for sale, the end price sadly does reflect the above fact. All the noise there is is the hiss from the tape - vinyl noise is next to inaudible. 
 
The sample I did run across had performance that was hard to believe to really come from vinyl test record and for linearity and non linear distortion put anything else to shame. I only wished it was mine - that happened "at the last call for alcohol" - a friend ordered it a few days before it vanished for good, I was a few days late ...

 

[analogsurviver]

 
doormat 

 

 

[penmarker]

The camera angle sold it.
 
+1

 

[analogsurviver]

It is actually for sale : http://www.ebay.de/itm/Schmutzmatte-Bodenvorleger-Fusmatte-Abtreter-Turmatte-Abstreifer-Plattenspieler-/311124023592?pt=Teppiche&hash=item48706fd928

 

[Shaffer]

Thank you for the answer. I did expect the PTG II to be sensitive to SRA - and the usual re-adjustments once the suspension settles down, it is perfectly normal. [...]

This cart was unusually sensitive to breakin. I completely agree that re-adjustments are a normal part of the process. It's the degree of magnitude that was rather high.

 

[analogsurviver]

This cart was unusually sensitive to breakin. I completely agree that re-adjustments are a normal part of the process. It's the degree of magnitude that was rather high.

Interesting. I suspect it was a bit higher compliance than the "current norm" - and higher compliance (less stiff ) suspensions tend to behave like that ( Shure V15VMR is a make or break - within 0.05 of a gram either way, sample to sample dependant , also very SRA sensitive ). What VTF did you end up with once finally set up - I expect it to track at a bit lighter pressure, towards the lower limit ( or even lower ) of the mfr's 1.8-2.2 g range ?

 

[bbophead]

  It is actually for sale : http://www.ebay.de/itm/Schmutzmatte-Bodenvorleger-Fusmatte-Abtreter-Turmatte-Abstreifer-Plattenspieler-/311124023592?pt=Teppiche&hash=item48706fd928

I don't think I could bring myself to wipe my shoes on it.

 

[analogsurviver]

 
I don't think I could bring myself to wipe my shoes on it.

My thoughts exactly - guess any of my TTs would say :
 

 

[bbophead]

LOL!

 

[]eep]

I first heard an OCx ( 7? 9? ) trough something both of us love(d) - Rogers LS-3/5a. And it was coarse beyond belief. Then, a few months later, I did get to install and measure OC9 - and found that 7th and/or 9th harmonic that bothered me that much . Not for me....

Well, your mileage may vary.... I came from a very nice HO-MC, the Milltek Aurora (=Kiseki budget brand) and went to the OC9+stepup>tube. It was simply sweet. I don't really see were 7th or 9th (really?) harmonics can bother anyone, or what would cause them. 9th Harmonics are most of the time not even in the audible spectrum (depending on F0 of course). And harmonics are always a benign natural kind of distortion. Please don't go in to this, to technical and vague. And the cause might have been anything because TT's are so complex. I only recall the AT-OC9 as very clean, fast and sweet. Not as a nasty screecher. The only thing im my system was that is was a little lightweight. But that was mainly Linn Axis' fault. I find the Axis boring in retrospect. Like a device for muggles pretending to be wizzards, the real magic is missing.

Oops, missed a gage...

how did you perceive the vinyl noise as reproduced by AT 33PTG II

Isn't this solely dependent on the needletip shape and polish? Any FG or super elliptical that is polished well and with the cartridge carefully aligned should play quietly. As long as I can remember people are alway astounded at how quiet vinyl is, given proper handling of the vinyl of course. I had my OC9 always at 1.8g and the VTA; the head always a bit down.

The doormat is funny, but it kinda sends the wrong message.

Just like I hate those vinyl ashtrays...:mad: It is in fact NLP to disrespect mistreat your and other peoples vinyl. That is just like people who put their cigarette out in their plate after dinner. They should be shot in public.

 

[analogsurviver]

"A couple of posts back" I mentioned a "DIYready TT" from IKEA made out of bamboo. I managed to obtain the rectangular butcher block, but not the round "platter" version. 
 
I do not throw the rifle in corn that easily - and I quickly decided to write an email to IKEA headquarters. Surprise - within less than 8 hours, I got a reply : 
 
Dear Sir,
Thank you for your email. I have forwarded the email to the appropriate person within the organization.
Kind regards,
Kirsten
 
Six days later:
 
 
Elisabet Jönsson To me

CC Per Krokstäde Petra Axdorff Christina Wennberg


 

Oct 29 at 3:41 PM

Dear (---A-----S-----),
 
Unfortunately I have to inform you that we do not have any stock left of
the IKEA TRENDIG butchers block, it’s sold out in all stores worldwide.
 
This was a limited collection and was only sold during a short period.
 
All the best Elisabet Jönsson
IKEA of Sweden, Free Range
 
 
Although the reply was not what I was hoping for, I have to recommend the IKEA team - they handled it in a most professional manner imaginable. That is what I call great customer service

!
 
 
Here the "bambus delicti" - it can go in (m)any directions ( I best stock up on these butcher blocks until I still can... ) - like a simple bamboo board ( a la Rega ), like a sandwich construction ( a la Legno TT : http://www.dvice.com/archives/2009/01/legno_turntable.php ), a la SME  20 ( http://www.hifinews.co.uk/news/article/sme-20-3-pound;8560/9336 ), a la ( censored 

 ) ...
 
- here a few possibilities ( 2 big butcher blocks :& one smaller (to house the power supply/electronics for the TT)  - all still in protective wrap ) :
 

Platter & mat from Telefunken S600 - set of platter, subplatter, main bearing and mat bought separately, as a direct consequence of realizing the quality from the Telefunken S600 from my previous post(s). That was before I knew IKEA bamboo platter is definitely no longer available. 
 
[size=13.3333339691162px][/size]
 

 

 

This is with a platter from Audio Reflex TT ( from "a quite a couple of posts back" )
 

 

 
There is even a nice LENCO  dustcover ( I bought some quarter of a century back, still in Yugoslavia ) that will fit nicely once I add some hinges :
 

 It is my photo skills

 - NOT the dustcover - still immaculate after all these years in storage 

.
 
So depending on the dimensions which tonearm I choose to "transplant" - or, God forbid, decide to purchase pre-loved ( I DO have something special/rare on the radar...)  or even new -  I will decide whether going SME o-ring style suspension ( SME "borrowed" it too - NOT their invention ! ) - or something else. I have 2 platters and three main bearings to choose from, AC synhronous motor, DC asynhronous motor, and .... - leave that until there will be some more  known.
 
We have a saying " Jump first, then say hop "  - so do not expect to see "bamboo TT" posts any time soon. I simply did not want to end up bamboozled by the lack of - bamboo ... - ending without the bamboo platter was hard enough

.
 

 

[analogsurviver]

Well, your mileage may vary.... I came from a very nice HO-MC, the Milltek Aurora (=Kiseki budget brand) and went to the OC9+stepup>tube. It was simply sweet. I don't really see were 7th or 9th (really?) harmonics can bother anyone, or what would cause them. 9th Harmonics are most of the time not even in the audible spectrum (depending on F0 of course). And harmonics are always a benign natural kind of distortion. Please don't go in to this, to technical and vague. And the cause might have been anything because TT's are so complex. I only recall the AT-OC9 as very clean, fast and sweet. Not as a nasty screecher. The only thing im my system was that is was a little lightweight. But that was mainly Linn Axis' fault. I find the Axis boring in retrospect. Like a device for muggles pretending to be wizzards, the real magic is missing.

Oops, missed a gage...
Isn't this solely dependent on the needletip shape and polish? Any FG or super elliptical that is polished well and with the cartridge carefully aligned should play quietly. As long as I can remember people are alway astounded at how quiet vinyl is, given proper handling of the vinyl of course. I had my OC9 always at 1.8g and the VTA; the head always a bit down.

The doormat is funny, but it kinda sends the wrong message.

Just like I hate those vinyl ashtrays...

It is in fact NLP to disrespect mistreat your and other peoples vinyl. That is just like people who put their cigarette out in their plate after dinner. They should be shot in public.

Just a quick reply regarding vinyl noise - NO, the very same diamond stylus tip on the very same cantilever aligned completely the same way can (and does...) bring vastly different vinyl noise characteristics. It has ultimately to do with (irregularities = resonances ) in the frequency response - from DC to light, two carts that are indistinguishable by measurements limited only to 20 kHz can - and do - react to vinyl noise completely differently. It is particularly the response above 20 kHz responsible for this - and as an owner of DV17D II (that is very well behaved up above ) you should be aware of it. The faster one with the least irregularities will always win in vinyl noise - even if both use the very same stylus/cantilever. 
 
There are MANY actions that can/have to be taken in order to supress the vinyl noise - and it is what separates men from the boys. Due to the fact that the solutions are hard to implement and are arrived at with mostly trial and error method, mostly with a particular cartridge design in mind and  requiring prodigious amount of time, manufacturers are particularly tight-lipped regarding this phenomenon. Understandable - if cart X is appreciably quieter in the groove than competitor's Y and both equally revealing and costing roughly the same, *guess* which one will survive in the market.  It fits in the category :
Goodnes is obtained by making the basics right, greatness through ATTENDING TO DETAILS . 

 

[]eep]

I forgot that the suspension combined with the cantilever matters too. Mass and stiffness. Just like a racingcars traction does not only depend on the tire but suspension also. Only in a car the suspension is a lot more complex (4 tires are interdependt), the cantilever only has one rubber suspension and 1 tiny string holding it together. However, I still think if a cartridge can scan 100kHz from the groove (IF ever there is such a signal) it can certainly hold the needle against the groovewalls. If it would resonate at such a frequency you can say scanning goodbye. And deformations of the groovewall (vinylnoise) would not count as noise but as signal if you don't scan the whole side from top to bottom as far as the cantilever is concerned. Look at the middle photo:

If you would only scan the middle of the road the rocks on the road would count as signal. Now the question is: do you want to hear the rocks or do you want to have the suspension even them out? Do you want the French Citroen ride or the McLaren F1 ride? I think what you really want is to get those rocks off the track. Those rocks are not the signal.
The next picture you can see what we are talking about: the vinyl is not all slick and solid. You can see that even the top is not completely polished. Now that is vinyl noise. I think the only thing you can do is scan it as best you can and not waltz over it like a lorry. If you want you can filter HF somewhere else but let the stylus stick to the track.


Now this one is really cool if you have some red/green glasses for 3D (I happen to have one lying around )


Some more nice photo's I found...

Guess what you can do with a carbon brush...

Now this is what I see sometimes with a little 60x diamondmicroscope. The white specs are sometimes impossible to get rid of even with thorough cleaning with a RCM. Sometimes the woodgluemethod can do wonders turning a campfire into black night. And sometimes not even that helps.

 

[analogsurviver]

I forgot that the suspension combined with the cantilever matters too. Mass and stiffness. Just like a racingcars traction does not only depend on the tire but suspension also. Only in a car the suspension is a lot more complex (4 tires are interdependt), the cantilever only has one rubber suspension and 1 tiny string holding it together. However, I still think if a cartridge can scan 100kHz from the groove (IF ever there is such a signal) it can certainly hold the needle against the groovewalls. If it would resonate at such a frequency you can say scanning goodbye. And deformations of the groovewall (vinylnoise) would not count as noise but as signal if you don't scan the whole side from top to bottom as far as the cantilever is concerned. Look at the middle photo:

If you would only scan the middle of the road the rocks on the road would count as signal. Now the question is: do you want to hear the rocks or do you want to have the suspension even them out? Do you want the French Citroen ride or the McLaren F1 ride? I think what you really want is to get those rocks off the track. Those rocks are not the signal.
The next picture you can see what we are talking about: the vinyl is not all slick and solid. You can see that even the top is not completely polished. Now that is vinyl noise. I think the only thing you can do is scan it as best you can and not waltz over it like a lorry. If you want you can filter HF somewhere else but let the stylus stick to the track.


Now this one is really cool if you have some red/green glasses for 3D (I happen to have one lying around

)


Some more nice photo's I found...

Guess what you can do with a carbon brush...

Now this is what I see sometimes with a little 60x diamondmicroscope. The white specs are sometimes impossible to get rid of even with thorough cleaning with a RCM. Sometimes the woodgluemethod can do wonders turning a campfire into black night. And sometimes not even that helps.

Nice pictures and great post!
 
However - what I had in mind was what actually happens when all those unwanted rocks do get tracked and transduced to an electrical signal. The goal is to have that electrical signal as linear in frequency response as possible. 
 
In my future posts regarding turntable setup I will posts pics of the real cartridge tracking test signals as seen on an analog 100 MHz oscilloscope. I was also surprised, decades ago, to find on the peak of large amplitude sine wave signal of 300 Hz ( standard frequency for tracking testing ) - very high frequency noise, way exceeding 50 kHz . I measure into LINEAR, not RIAA equalized preamplifier ( test records are generally NOT equalized with full RIAA, they adhere to it only in the lower portion below 1 kHz - from 1 kHz up, they are cut in linear way, as high frequencies cut at or near 0 dB (full output ) with RIAA boost ( by 20 kHz +20 dB up ref 1 kHz ) are too much for practically any phono cartridge . ) Naturally, if tracking is measured trough RIAA equalized phono preamp, those high frequencies do get filtered out - and 300 Hz waveform looks "clean" on the scope.
 
But measured linearly, carts exhibit vastly different behaviour once called upon to track high amplitude low frequency signals - particularly when they approach their tracking ability limits. The ones that "noise" on the scope the most are also the ones that noise subjectively the most on vinyl. If the cartridge exhibits gross non linearities anywhere within its operating range - not just within its spec or 20Hz-20kHz range - it will noise on vinyl . 
 
In other words - all those rocks trigger resonance(s) in phono cartridge(s)/tonearm(s)/turntable(s). The cart that allows itself the least reaction to these stymuli from rocks wins. Like it or not - those rocks are here to stay, we can reduce their presence trough cleaning (particularly ultrasonic ) - but they can never be 100% eliminated.