PONO - Neil Youngs portable hi-res music player
Nov 24, 2014 at 8:14 PM Post #1,652 of 4,866
Linn Audio is having their 24-bits of Christmas event starting today by the way. Every day until Christmas you can download a free 24-bit studio master.
http://www.linn.co.uk/christmas

Personally, I find Linn's music to sound okay, but nothing too spectacular.

 
Guess it's time for the 24 Days of ABXmas
 
Nov 24, 2014 at 8:42 PM Post #1,653 of 4,866
Guess it's time for the 24 Days of ABXmas

Ya. What the heck....I don't even....
Code:
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.3
2014/11/24 17:32:50

File A: Z:\Users\miceblue\sox-14.4.1\01 - Caledonia.flac
File B: Z:\Users\miceblue\sox-14.4.1\c.flac

17:32:50 : Test started.
17:33:20 : 01/01 50.0%
17:33:26 : 02/02 25.0%
17:33:34 : 03/03 12.5%
17:33:45 : 04/04 6.3%
17:34:00 : 05/05 3.1%
17:34:11 : 06/06 1.6%
17:34:19 : 07/07 0.8%
17:34:26 : 08/08 0.4%
17:34:37 : 09/09 0.2%
17:34:53 : 10/10 0.1%
17:35:10 : 11/11 0.0%
17:35:28 : 12/12 0.0%
17:37:14 : 13/13 0.0%
17:37:33 : 14/14 0.0%
17:37:42 : 15/15 0.0%
17:37:57 : 16/16 0.0%
17:38:09 : 17/17 0.0%
17:38:29 : 17/18 0.0%
17:38:31 : Test finished.

 ---------- 
Total: 17/18 (0.0%)
c.flac is derived from 01 - Caledonia.flac (24/192) via sox (-b 16 -r 44100)

I'm just using beta headphone products from an audio company and this test seemed too easy for me.

I was just using Foobar via Wine in OS X with ReplayGain on (the difference is only 0.04 dB though).

^ 24/192 source file


^ 16/44.1 derived file
I am very confused now.
 
Nov 24, 2014 at 9:03 PM Post #1,654 of 4,866
Ya. What the heck....I don't even....
Code:
Code:
 foo_abx 1.3.4 report foobar2000 v1.3.3 2014/11/24 17:32:50 File A: Z:\Users\miceblue\sox-14.4.1\01 - Caledonia.flac File B: Z:\Users\miceblue\sox-14.4.1\c.flac 17:32:50 : Test started. 17:33:20 : 01/01 50.0% 17:33:26 : 02/02 25.0% 17:33:34 : 03/03 12.5% 17:33:45 : 04/04 6.3% 17:34:00 : 05/05 3.1% 17:34:11 : 06/06 1.6% 17:34:19 : 07/07 0.8% 17:34:26 : 08/08 0.4% 17:34:37 : 09/09 0.2% 17:34:53 : 10/10 0.1% 17:35:10 : 11/11 0.0% 17:35:28 : 12/12 0.0% 17:37:14 : 13/13 0.0% 17:37:33 : 14/14 0.0% 17:37:42 : 15/15 0.0% 17:37:57 : 16/16 0.0% 17:38:09 : 17/17 0.0% 17:38:29 : 17/18 0.0% 17:38:31 : Test finished. ---------- Total: 17/18 (0.0%)
c.flac is derived from 01 - Caledonia.flac via sox (-b 16 -r 44100)

I'm just using beta headphone products from an audio company and this test seemed too easy for me.
I am very confused now.

 
Apologies for the sound science below, Ponofolk.
 
I couldn't pass my test.
If you do:
sox 01 - Caledonia.flac -v -1 c.flac -n stat stats spectrogram
does anything look fishy in the stats or spec?
 
Try:
sox -V4 01 - Calendonia.flac -b 16 c.flac rate 44100 dither -s
sox -V4 c.flac -b 24 d.flac rate -v 192000
 
Then compare 01 - Cal. to d.flac
 
Nov 24, 2014 at 11:18 PM Post #1,655 of 4,866
Apologies for the sound science below, Ponofolk.

I couldn't pass my test.
If you do:
sox -m 01 - Caledonia.flac -v -1 c.flac -n stat stats spectrogram
does anything look fishy in the stats or spec?

Try:
sox -V4 01 - Calendonia.flac -b 16 c.flac rate 44100 dither -s
sox -V4 c.flac -b 24 d.flac rate -v 192000

Then compare 01 - Cal. to d.flac

I'm still fairly new to sox's commands, so you'll have to bare with me here.

the -n stat stats spectrogram command gave me:
sox-14.4.1/sox FAIL sox: Input files must have the same sample-rate

Regarding the first line after "Try"
Code:
miceblue:~ miceblue$ /Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox -V4 /Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/01\ -\ Caledonia.flac -b 16 c.flac rate 44100 dither -s
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox: SoX v14.4.1
time: Feb 1 2013 19:00:26
uname: Darwin kokanketsu.local 13.4.0 Darwin Kernel Version 13.4.0: Sun Aug 17 19:50:11 PDT 2014; root:xnu-2422.115.4~1/RELEASE_X86_64 x86_64
compiler: gcc 4.2.1 (Based on Apple Inc. build 5658) (LLVM build 2336.11.00)
arch: 1248 48 44 L OMP
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox INFO formats: detected file format type `flac'
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG flac: API version 10

Input File : '/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/01 - Caledonia.flac'
Channels : 2
Sample Rate : 192000
Precision : 24-bit
Duration : 00:04:47.17 = 55135942 samples ~ 21537.5 CDDA sectors
File Size : 197M
Bit Rate : 5.49M
Sample Encoding: 24-bit FLAC
Endian Type : little
Reverse Nibbles: no
Reverse Bits : no
Comments : 
album=Caledonia
ALBUMARTIST=Dougie MacLean
artist=Dougie MacLean
composer=Dougie Maclean
Date=2014
genre=Folk
title=Caledonia
TRACKNUMBER=1
replaygain_track_gain=-0.01 dB
replaygain_track_peak=0.963092

/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox INFO flac: encoding at 16 bits per sample

Output File : 'c.flac'
Channels : 2
Sample Rate : 44100
Precision : 16-bit
Duration : 00:04:47.17 = 12664036 samples = 21537.5 CDDA sectors
Sample Encoding: 16-bit FLAC
Endian Type : little
Reverse Nibbles: no
Reverse Bits : no
Comments : 
album=Caledonia
ALBUMARTIST=Dougie MacLean
artist=Dougie MacLean
composer=Dougie Maclean
Date=2014
genre=Folk
title=Caledonia
TRACKNUMBER=1
replaygain_track_gain=-0.01 dB
replaygain_track_peak=0.963092

/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG rate: i/o=4.35374; 80:147 @ level 2
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG effects_i_dsp: 1 0.29345 1.5
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG effects_i_dsp: make_lpf(n=4409, Fc=0.00820782 beta=13.7461 dc-norm=1 scale=147)
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG rate: fir_len=30 phases=147 coef_interp=0 mult=1 size=35.3k
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG effects_i_dsp: 0.4655 0.020248 0.5
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG effects_i_dsp: make_lpf(n=409, Fc=0.479752 beta=12.8525 dc-norm=1 scale=1)
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG rate: fir_len=409 dft_length=4096 Fp=0.931 att=125 mult=1
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG effects_i_dsp: 0.427678 0.0424457 0.5
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG effects_i_dsp: make_lpf(n=197, Fc=0.457554 beta=12.8525 dc-norm=1 scale=1)
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG rate: fir_len=197 dft_length=4096 Fp=0.855356 att=125 mult=1
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG rate: stage=0 pre_post=44 pre=22 preload=22
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG rate: stage=1 pre_post=0 pre=0 preload=98
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG rate: stage=2 pre_post=29 pre=0 preload=14
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG rate: stage=3 pre_post=0 pre=0 preload=204
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG rate: i/o=4.35374; 80:147 @ level 2
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG rate: stage=0 pre_post=44 pre=22 preload=22
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG rate: stage=1 pre_post=0 pre=0 preload=98
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG rate: stage=2 pre_post=29 pre=0 preload=14
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG rate: stage=3 pre_post=0 pre=0 preload=204
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox INFO sox: effects chain: input 192000Hz 2 channels (multi) 24 bits 00:04:47.17
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox INFO sox: effects chain: rate 44100Hz 2 channels 32 bits 00:04:47.17
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox INFO sox: effects chain: dither 44100Hz 2 channels 16 bits 00:04:47.17
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox INFO sox: effects chain: output 44100Hz 2 channels (multi) 16 bits 00:04:47.17
Second line after "Try"
Code:
miceblue:~ miceblue$ /Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox -V4 /Users/miceblue/c.flac -b 24 d.flac rate -v 192000
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox: SoX v14.4.1
time: Feb 1 2013 19:00:26
uname: Darwin kokanketsu.local 13.4.0 Darwin Kernel Version 13.4.0: Sun Aug 17 19:50:11 PDT 2014; root:xnu-2422.115.4~1/RELEASE_X86_64 x86_64
compiler: gcc 4.2.1 (Based on Apple Inc. build 5658) (LLVM build 2336.11.00)
arch: 1248 48 44 L OMP
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox INFO formats: detected file format type `flac'
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG flac: API version 10

Input File : '/Users/miceblue/c.flac'
Channels : 2
Sample Rate : 44100
Precision : 16-bit
Duration : 00:04:47.17 = 12664037 samples = 21537.5 CDDA sectors
File Size : 26.4M
Bit Rate : 735k
Sample Encoding: 16-bit FLAC
Endian Type : little
Reverse Nibbles: no
Reverse Bits : no
Comments : 
album=Caledonia
ALBUMARTIST=Dougie MacLean
artist=Dougie MacLean
composer=Dougie Maclean
Date=2014
genre=Folk
title=Caledonia
TRACKNUMBER=1
replaygain_track_gain=-0.01 dB
replaygain_track_peak=0.963092

/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox INFO flac: encoding at 24 bits per sample
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox INFO flac: non-standard rate; output may not be streamable

Output File : 'd.flac'
Channels : 2
Sample Rate : 192000
Precision : 24-bit
Duration : 00:04:47.17 = 55135943 samples ~ 21537.5 CDDA sectors
Sample Encoding: 24-bit FLAC
Endian Type : little
Reverse Nibbles: no
Reverse Bits : no
Comments : 
album=Caledonia
ALBUMARTIST=Dougie MacLean
artist=Dougie MacLean
composer=Dougie Maclean
Date=2014
genre=Folk
title=Caledonia
TRACKNUMBER=1
replaygain_track_gain=-0.01 dB
replaygain_track_peak=0.963092

/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG rate: i/o=0.229687; 147:640 @ level 0
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG effects_i_dsp: 0.5 0.5869 1.5
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG effects_i_dsp: make_lpf(n=12799, Fc=0.00142672 beta=18.3258 dc-norm=1 scale=640)
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG rate: fir_len=20 phases=640 coef_interp=0 mult=2 size=102k
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG effects_i_dsp: 0.4655 0.020248 0.5
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG effects_i_dsp: make_lpf(n=573, Fc=0.479752 beta=17.879 dc-norm=1 scale=1)
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG rate: fir_len=573 dft_length=4096 Fp=0.931 att=170 mult=1
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG effects_i_dsp: 0.32 0.105642 0.5
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG effects_i_dsp: make_lpf(n=113, Fc=0.394358 beta=17.879 dc-norm=1 scale=1)
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG rate: fir_len=113 dft_length=4096 Fp=0.64 att=170 mult=1
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG rate: stage=-1 pre_post=0 pre=0 preload=143
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG rate: stage=0 pre_post=19 pre=0 preload=9
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG rate: stage=1 pre_post=0 pre=0 preload=56
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG rate: i/o=0.229687; 147:640 @ level 0
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG rate: stage=-1 pre_post=0 pre=0 preload=143
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG rate: stage=0 pre_post=19 pre=0 preload=9
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox DBUG rate: stage=1 pre_post=0 pre=0 preload=56
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox INFO sox: effects chain: input 44100Hz 2 channels (multi) 16 bits 00:04:47.17
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox INFO sox: effects chain: rate 192000Hz 2 channels 32 bits 00:04:47.17
/Users/miceblue/sox-14.4.1/sox INFO sox: effects chain: output 192000Hz 2 channels (multi) 24 bits 00:04:47.17

Someone suggested that I try the test in proper Windows' Foobar instead of Foobar being run via Wine, so I'll try that for my original files and the ones you suggested. That doesn't explain why I can't hear a difference between 24/96 and 16/44.1 with this track though.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2816447/24_96vs16_441.zip


I myself am still really skeptical about any audible benefits for HD resolutions per se. In theory I don't think it should matter, really, compared to different masters of the song/album. I haven't heard any other strong evidence for the HD resolutions otherwise, so I'm not sure what happened with that case. XD

To me the 24/192 original file sounded more spacious and smoother compared to the 16/44.1 one.
Anyway, I'll got test this in Windows and edit this post to report back any differences I hear.



[rule]
YUP, it must have been an anomaly somewhere with OS X or the sampling rate differences. Having both at the 192 kHz sampling rate fixes an extra "clipping" sound that appears to be due to the DAC switching sampling rates. Phew, that was a good sanity check. Thanks for pointing that out.

So it still stands that HD resolutions make no difference in audio quality. XD



By the way, I downloaded the 16/44.1 files from Linn Audio since it's free anyway, and it looks like they just down-sample the original studio master, so I hear no difference between them with a proper ABX test in Windows.
 
Nov 25, 2014 at 5:52 AM Post #1,656 of 4,866
I'm still fairly new to sox's commands, so you'll have to bare with me here.

the -n stat stats spectrogram command gave me:
sox-14.4.1/sox FAIL sox: Input files must have the same sample-rate

Someone suggested that I try the test in proper Windows' Foobar instead of Foobar being run via Wine, so I'll try that for my original files and the ones you suggested. That doesn't explain why I can't hear a difference between 24/96 and 16/44.1 with this track though.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2816447/24_96vs16_441.zip


I myself am still really skeptical about any audible benefits for HD resolutions per se. In theory I don't think it should matter, really, compared to different masters of the song/album. I haven't heard any other strong evidence for the HD resolutions otherwise, so I'm not sure what happened with that case. XD

To me the 24/192 original file sounded more spacious and smoother compared to the 16/44.1 one.
Anyway, I'll got test this in Windows and edit this post to report back any differences I hear.

 
YUP, it must have been an anomaly somewhere with OS X or the sampling rate differences. Having both at the 192 kHz sampling rate fixes an extra "clipping" sound that appears to be due to the DAC switching sampling rates. Phew, that was a good sanity check. Thanks for pointing that out.

So it still stands that HD resolutions make no difference in audio quality. XD



By the way, I downloaded the 16/44.1 files from Linn Audio since it's free anyway, and it looks like they just down-sample the original studio master, so I hear no difference between them with a proper ABX test in Windows.

 
Glad it all worked out; you definitely have to compare these things at the same bit/sample spec, because as you found the DAC can give you information that biases the result. Just shows how quickly these kinds of tests can get messed up and give false positives. The first sox command failed b/c the -m options expects the files to have the same spec and have the same number of samples. It should work on the files my other commands made.
 
I'm not surprised by the 16/44.1 file from Linn; there's no need to process it any other way (unless you need it LOUD, you know :)
 
Nov 25, 2014 at 8:06 PM Post #1,657 of 4,866
Linn Audio is having their 24-bits of Christmas event starting today by the way. Every day until Christmas you can download a free 24-bit studio master.
http://www.linn.co.uk/christmas

Personally, I find Linn's music to sound okay, but nothing too spectacular.


Thanks for this miceblue. Have downloaded my first freebie and listening to it as I type this. Very nice!
 
Nov 28, 2014 at 4:51 PM Post #1,658 of 4,866
todays' update:
as always we remain dedicated to deliver all October and December players to you before Christmas.

As of this update we have manufactured:

  1. 9103 Chrome LE players 
  2. 2824 Yellow players 
  3. 380 Clear players

We are scheduled to complete 3497 Black players between December 2 and December 8. The black players were delayed because of supplier problems affecting the cosmetics of the special black soft touch paint. We expect all our Kickstarter production to be completed by December 8.

Once your player is manufactured and passes all quality tests, it is shipped to your country from China by air. Depending on the country of destination and other factors, delivery typically takes 3 to 5 days. When the product is ready to be shipped, you will receive a notice alerting you of an upcoming delivery by UPS. A signature is required for it to be left. Three attempts will be made, and if the package cannot be delivered, it will be returned to our manufacturer in China, following UPS’s policy to return it to the sender. To date 52 units have not been able to be delivered due primarily to no one being available to receive it.

Some of you who ordered October Limited Edition players are still waiting for your players, and we apologize for the delay, particularly since you were our earliest supporters. While we began production of the Limited Editions players in pledge priority order, a number of them required their housings to be remade because the cosmetics and laser etching did not meet our specifications. That’s why some of you have received players in a specific Limited Edition series while others are still waiting.

These series include Neil Young, Crosby Stills & Nash, Tom Petty, Pearl Jam, and Lenny Kravitz. From these series, 1997 units have been built out of a total of 3089. The remaining units will be completed between now and December 8.

We are still waiting for some artists to provide us the albums for their December Limited Edition series. These include:

  1. ZZ Top 
  2. Tegan & Sara
  3. Emmylou Harris 
  4. Kenny Rogers

We anticipate having these albums arrive next week and to ship a few days after that.

 
Dec 3, 2014 at 8:28 PM Post #1,660 of 4,866
Just got my shipping notification from Pono. Bizarrely it seems to be coming from New Jersey, instead of China. I ordered the Patti Smith LE player. Maybe they went through NYC for the music...
 
Dec 4, 2014 at 10:23 AM Post #1,661 of 4,866
This thread seems very quiet. not a lot of interest for the Pono on Head Fi? I wouldn't mind picking one up if they were available but if they are still manufacturing units for Kickstarter supporters then I think it will be a very long time before the general public can buy one from the Pono store.
 
Dec 4, 2014 at 10:51 AM Post #1,662 of 4,866
  This thread seems very quiet. not a lot of interest for the Pono on Head Fi? I wouldn't mind picking one up if they were available but if they are still manufacturing units for Kickstarter supporters then I think it will be a very long time before the general public can buy one from the Pono store.


You're right, they're still cranking out the kickstarter rewards.  Not sure when they'll get past the backlog,
but perhaps sometime in1Q15.  
 
There is also an impressions thread at http://www.head-fi.org/t/737093/the-ponomusic-ponoplayer-impressions-thread.
 
Dec 5, 2014 at 12:44 PM Post #1,663 of 4,866
Sadly I do not think Pono is going to make it,I do not see what they are offering that is not already out there in the market?One can buy a sony walkman player that has the same capacity and the same ability to play FLAC etc for 100 dollars less and or buy a used Astell Kern 100 for 100 dollars less that has even greater capacity etc....there are already numerous sites that offer high Rez music !As i said i do not understand what is being offered here that does not already exist in the market other than Neil Youngs signature?
 
Dec 5, 2014 at 1:39 PM Post #1,664 of 4,866
  Sadly I do not think Pono is going to make it,I do not see what they are offering that is not already out there in the market?One can buy a sony walkman player that has the same capacity and the same ability to play FLAC etc for 100 dollars less and or buy a used Astell Kern 100 for 100 dollars less that has even greater capacity etc....there are already numerous sites that offer high Rez music !As i said i do not understand what is being offered here that does not already exist in the market other than Neil Youngs signature?


That's what spawned initial skepticism about the project.
 
Dec 5, 2014 at 7:43 PM Post #1,665 of 4,866
Sadly I do not think Pono is going to make it,I do not see what they are offering that is not already out there in the market?One can buy a sony walkman player that has the same capacity and the same ability to play FLAC etc for 100 dollars less and or buy a used Astell Kern 100 for 100 dollars less that has even greater capacity etc....there are already numerous sites that offer high Rez music !As i said i do not understand what is being offered here that does not already exist in the market other than Neil Youngs signature?


I'm famous man, just give me your money and shut up. Customer service? We don't need no stinking customer service. Just be greatful we saw fit to take your money!
 

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