[inthere]

Thanks... SO what's the difference between "body to the sound" vs "Soundstage?"

 

 
 
I'm not sure, but I have the HRM-7 and the Yamaha 220 and the HRM-7 has a lot more clarity and a wider soundstage than the Yamaha's, while the Yamahas have more bass.
 
You only hear it when you compare the two because the Pioneer doesn't sound thin at all. 

 

[grizzlybeast]

They are comparable...it's just that when you break it down like that it seems that way. The Yamaha should have more body to the sound and stronger bass but the Pio has better soundstage, clarity and control.


Also don't ignore the huge disclaimer of me saying my memory could be off there. Not having both and going off of memory for these headphones can be tricky.

Thanks... SO what's the difference between "body to the sound" vs "Soundstage?"


 

Body: usually is used to describe fullness from upper bass, lower mids, or a combination of the two
Soundstage : how far sounds seem to project when listening. Some headphones sound like the sounds are all crammed together. Some sounds seem more spread out in dimension.

The Yamaha seems less spread out. The pioneer seems more spacious.

The Yamaha has more bass so it will sound like it has more body. The pioneer has less bass bloat, is less in quantity, and not as strong in impact so it will seem to have less body.

FWIW I bought the k553 and found the hrm_7 to have a more spread out Soundstage as well as tighter bass, and slightly more clarity with a more even midrange but the k553 wasn't far off in midrange balance. The pioneer was brighter and the bass extension seemed deeper. The k553 bass seemed slightly more responsive to thumps but less detailed while overall I found its bass to be good quality as well.

 

[Eurobeat]

Body: usually is used to describe fullness from upper bass, lower mids, or a combination of the two
Soundstage : how far sounds seem to project when listening. Some headphones sound like the sounds are all crammed together. Some sounds seem more spread out in dimension.

The Yamaha seems less spread out. The pioneer seems more spacious.

The Yamaha has more bass so it will sound like it has more body. The pioneer has less bass bloat, is less in quantity, and not as strong in impact so it will seem to have less body.

FWIW I bought the k553 and found the hrm_7 to have a more spread out Soundstage as well as tighter bass, and slightly more clarity with a more even midrange but the k553 wasn't far off in midrange balance. The pioneer was brighter and the bass extension seemed deeper. The k553 bass seemed slightly more responsive to thumps but less detailed while overall I found its bass to be good quality as well.

Thanks for those definitions, they made a lot of sense.

So for you, the only issue with "Body" was the lack of bass?  Everything else was okay?

I really want a nice soundstage, as I feel my music really requires it, and I like to hear sounds coming at me from all sides.  This is one reason why I was originally looking for headphones that had virtual surround sound to it.

I don't need too much bass, but some is nice.  Some people go overboard with it.

I was also looking at some reviews on amazon, here

http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-HRM-7-Professional-Studio-Headphones/dp/B00TCV9I10

One reviewer mentioned 

 I think it cant be beat at its price but this is NOT an easy listening headphone.

What does he mean by "NOT an easy listening headphone?"


Then there was a really negative review, which I'm curious what other's thoughts are on it

 

 Didn't like returned right away. I'll be the firs to review these all over I guess. I understand they are reference headphones ( which a very loose term) i'l start off with the design, The Cones are way to Big!!! I had to wear a hat for them to fit right on my head ( which is a 7 1/4 Hat Size). when i first tried them I used the Straight Cord and they sounded terrible. muffled and far away. before i packed them up i decided let me try the other chord just to see. Wow they actually sounded a lot better. I thought let me keep them and see. As started to work with them and render out some project to test. all my projects sounded less airy with no excitement ( these were already finished products i wanted to see if i heard some frequencies or sounds that needed to be fixed, Which i did but they were frequencies and sounds that were needed to make the tracks sound alive.

In the end maybe i was confused on what i was buying but i tried everything from other peoples tracks to movies and nothing sounded Great. I feel if they fit tighter and more to the ear it would have sounded a little better but all in all they need to go back to the drawing board.

"I did hear the "big headphones" comment before, but they are light it seems!



I'm also curious about what sort of cables people use with this headphone, since it's a detachable?  Do you use stock or...?  From the review it seems that the stock cables differ themselves on quality, or maybe the reviewer got a bad cable.. or 2.

Also, I hear that an amp/DAC is preferred for this, so I'm curious if anyone has any recommendations on that?

I'm leaning towards this more than the Yamaha because I have a bad neck due to a car accident, and my 357g (27g cord added) Logitech G35's did cause me pain before I started getting treatment.  The Yamahas are 415 I believe, and these Pioneers are 330 (without cord).  It seems logitech to get the lighter one, in this case.

Thanks

 

[inthere]

  I'm also curious about what sort of cables people use with this headphone, since it's a detachable?  Do you use stock or...?  From the review it seems that the stock cables differ themselves on quality, or maybe the reviewer got a bad cable.. or 2.

Also, I hear that an amp/DAC is preferred for this, so I'm curious if anyone has any recommendations on that?

I'm leaning towards this more than the Yamaha because I have a bad neck due to a car accident, and my 357g (27g cord added) Logitech G35's did cause me pain before I started getting treatment.  The Yamahas are 415 I believe, and these Pioneers are 330 (without cord).  It seems logitech to get the lighter one, in this case.

Thanks

 
 The Pioneers are lighter than the Yamahas. The Pioneer cable is detachable, but proprietary (I think, I'm out of town right now and I don't have them with me) It doesn't take much power to drive the Pioneers, so just about any amp will do. I use the Cayin C5, Fiio E12, or even E6. 
 
One thing, the leakage on the Pioneer HRM-7 is quite bad imo, as bad as open headphones, but it also has an open headphone soundstage. Some may disagree with me on both soundstage and leakage but my take is the soundstage on the HRM-7 is almost the same as the Senn HD650. Same lack of coloration on the mids and the highs, and same smoothness. They could be twins but I'd say then Senns have slightly more bass.

 

[Eurobeat]

   
 The Pioneers are lighter than the Yamahas. The Pioneer cable is detachable, but proprietary (I think, I'm out of town right now and I don't have them with me) It doesn't take much power to drive the Pioneers, so just about any amp will do. I use the Cayin C5, Fiio E12, or even E6. 
 
One thing, the leakage on the Pioneer HRM-7 is quite bad imo, as bad as open headphones, but it also has an open headphone soundstage. Some may disagree with me on both soundstage and leakage but my take is the soundstage on the HRM-7 is almost the same as the Senn HD650. Same lack of coloration on the mids and the highs, and same smoothness. They could be twins but I'd say then Senns have slightly more bass.

Thanks for the info.

Well, it's interesting about the soundstage on these, but it's also interesting about your comparison with the Senn HD650's.  So are you saying the Senns are a better pair of headphones than these Pioneers?

 

 Same lack of coloration on the mids and the highs, and same smoothness. 

Is the "lack of coloration on the mids and highs" bad?  What about the "smoothness?"

Thanks.

 

[inthere]

  Thanks for the info.

Well, it's interesting about the soundstage on these, but it's also interesting about your comparison with the Senn HD650's.  So are you saying the Senns are a better pair of headphones than these Pioneers?

 

 Same lack of coloration on the mids and the highs, and same smoothness. 

Is the "lack of coloration on the mids and highs" bad?  What about the "smoothness?"

Thanks.

 
If I say a pair of sub-$200 headphones is better than Sennheiser's former flagship headphone, which is well over $400 and the favorite of many here on Head-Fi, there will be a price on my head!
 
But in terms of comfort, I would say the Senns are slightly more comfortable. Both are very comfortable. Durability well, I've broken 3 pairs of HD 650's and I've only had the HRM-7's about 10 days, so I can't really say. 
 
The sound is extremely close, they could be twins. Lack of coloration in the highs and mids is not a bad thing, it's great. Smoothness as in the highs and mids are not piercing or give you ear fatigue after long listening sessions, which is another good thing. 

 

[grizzlybeast]

For me leakage is not bad at all. I get no noticeable bleed into my mic.

The individual is talking about mixing in the bad amazon review. Trusting bright gear like the pio when mixing will lead to dark and airless mixes if you don't know your gear. My studio monitors have slightly forgiving highs so I have to check them on other gear to make sure they aren't too bright. Could be the opposite situation for that reviewer since these are bright. He gave no details about the sonic aspects of the headphone, only his results which is unreliable.

Inthere says they leak and my review says opposite but I will update my review because, while they don't leak horribly for me they do leak some when played loudly. My wife said they didn't leak bad when I was wearing them but I don't think the room was silent.

 

[inthere]

For me leakage is not bad at all. I get no noticeable bleed into my mic.

The individual is talking about mixing in the bad amazon review. Trusting bright gear like the pio when mixing will lead to dark and airless mixes if you don't know your gear. My studio monitors have slightly forgiving highs so I have to check them on other gear to make sure they aren't too bright. Could be the opposite situation for that reviewer since these are bright. He gave no details about the sonic aspects of the headphone, only his results which is unreliable.

In there says they leak and my review says opposite but I will update my review because, while they don't leak horribly for me they do leak some when played loudly. My wife said they didn't leak bad when I was wearing them but I don't think the room was silent.

 
 I've had that problem with Sennheiser HD650's and other open headphones, which is why I prefer bassier headphones when mixing. I use Marshall Monitors now. Highs are rolled off and bass is boosted a bit so it's perfect for me. 
 
But the thing is mixing with any headphone is trial and error until you find out how it translates. And of course like you said multiple sources referencing is absolutely essential. 
 
I max volume on my Pioneer HRM-7 and it leaks horribly, you should test it.

 

[grizzlybeast]

For me leakage is not bad at all. I get no noticeable bleed into my mic.



The individual is talking about mixing in the bad amazon review. Trusting bright gear like the pio when mixing will lead to dark and airless mixes if you don't know your gear. My studio monitors have slightly forgiving highs so I have to check them on other gear to make sure they aren't too bright. Could be the opposite situation for that reviewer since these are bright. He gave no details about the sonic aspects of the headphone, only his results which is unreliable.



In there says they leak and my review says opposite but I will update my review because, while they don't leak horribly for me they do leak some when played loudly. My wife said they didn't leak bad when I was wearing them but I don't think the room was silent.

 


 I've had that problem with Sennheiser HD650's and other open headphones, which is why I prefer bassier headphones when mixing. I use Marshall Monitors now. Highs are rolled off and bass is boosted a bit so it's perfect for me. 


 


But the thing is mixing with any headphone is trial and error until you find out how it translates. And of course like you said multiple sources referencing is absolutely essential. 


 


I max volume on my Pioneer HRM-7 and it leaks horribly, you should test it.

 


I just bothered my wife about it again and she confirmed your results. I will update my review right now.

 

[Eurobeat]

​Makes sense about the Amazon reviewer... Since I'm not mixing anything, I guess I don't have to worry about that?
 
It's a hard choice, but I'm leaning hard towards the Pio's.  Besides being lighter, and actually not "discontinued," the Pio's seem to be favored to the MT220's.  I also am a little worried about the Yammies and their "discontinued" status, because according to Yamaha they don't "repair" and would just "replace with an equivalent pair...."  In this case "Equiv" doesn't seem to be "worth it."

The next question is really figuring out what extras I need.  @inthere have you tried your "Alpha Pads" on these?  Does the Sound Stage get even better, or is not worth the 60$ extra?  You also mention the Alpha Pads increased the soundstage on the Yammies, so I'm curious what you think about the Alpha Pads + Yammies vs the Pios?

I'm also curious about the cables and if they are proprietary, or not, and what new cables to get, if any.

I also am not sure if I would need an Amp/DAC.  Not sure if I posted this here, but this is the specs of my old Sound Card, that I'm hoping to put into my new computer if the PCIe to PCI slot converter will work or not.  http://www.nordichardware.com/Multimedia/creative-soundblaster-x-fi-elite-pro/Specifications.html




Thanks all
 

   
If I say a pair of sub-$200 headphones is better than Sennheiser's former flagship headphone, which is well over $400 and the favorite of many here on Head-Fi, there will be a price on my head!
 
But in terms of comfort, I would say the Senns are slightly more comfortable. Both are very comfortable. Durability well, I've broken 3 pairs of HD 650's and I've only had the HRM-7's about 10 days, so I can't really say. 
 
The sound is extremely close, they could be twins. Lack of coloration in the highs and mids is not a bad thing, it's great. Smoothness as in the highs and mids are not piercing or give you ear fatigue after long listening sessions, which is another good thing. 

There are people who say the yammies are better, so be against the crowd and say the Pio's are also .

Thanks for the info in your last paragraph.
 

 

[grizzlybeast]

  ​Makes sense about the Amazon reviewer... Since I'm not mixing anything, I guess I don't have to worry about that?
 
It's a hard choice, but I'm leaning hard towards the Pio's.  Besides being lighter, and actually not "discontinued," the Pio's seem to be favored to the MT220's.  I also am a little worried about the Yammies and their "discontinued" status, because according to Yamaha they don't "repair" and would just "replace with an equivalent pair...."  In this case "Equiv" doesn't seem to be "worth it."

The next question is really figuring out what extras I need.  @inthere have you tried your "Alpha Pads" on these?  Does the Sound Stage get even better, or is not worth the 60$ extra?  You also mention the Alpha Pads increased the soundstage on the Yammies, so I'm curious what you think about the Alpha Pads + Yammies vs the Pios?

I'm also curious about the cables and if they are proprietary, or not, and what new cables to get, if any.

I also am not sure if I would need an Amp/DAC.  Not sure if I posted this here, but this is the specs of my old Sound Card, that I'm hoping to put into my new computer if the PCIe to PCI slot converter will work or not.  http://www.nordichardware.com/Multimedia/creative-soundblaster-x-fi-elite-pro/Specifications.html




Thanks all
 

   
If I say a pair of sub-$200 headphones is better than Sennheiser's former flagship headphone, which is well over $400 and the favorite of many here on Head-Fi, there will be a price on my head!
 
But in terms of comfort, I would say the Senns are slightly more comfortable. Both are very comfortable. Durability well, I've broken 3 pairs of HD 650's and I've only had the HRM-7's about 10 days, so I can't really say. 
 
The sound is extremely close, they could be twins. Lack of coloration in the highs and mids is not a bad thing, it's great. Smoothness as in the highs and mids are not piercing or give you ear fatigue after long listening sessions, which is another good thing. 

There are people who say the yammies are better, so be against the crowd and say the Pio's are also .

Thanks for the info in your last paragraph.
 

who are those people and why aren't they posting here? Have they owned both? Do They currently have both? is it one person in a PM? I could be wrong because  I dont have both at the same time. but those are questions that come to mind.
 
These things embarrassed the he400s. I doubt the yamaha will do the same. I admit I prefer the yamaha sound sig but overall Im betting the pio to be the better phone.

 

[Eurobeat]

 
who are those people and why aren't they posting here? Have they owned both? Do They currently have both? is it one person in a PM? I could be wrong because  I dont have both at the same time. but those are questions that come to mind.
 
These things embarrassed the he400s. I doubt the yamaha will do the same. I admit I prefer the yamaha sound sig but overall Im betting the pio to be the better phone.

Sorry, I wasn't very clear.

People say that the Yammies are better than HD650's, so I was saying if the Pios are better than the Yammies, then the Pios should be better than the HD650.

You were just detailing the sound signature is better because of the bass, and not other things, right?  Your chart was overwhelmingly towards the Pioneers.

Also, Do people prefer a better sound stage, or sound signature?

 

[Max Choiral]

Originally Posted by grizzlybeast /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
These things embarrassed the he400s. I doubt the yamaha will do the same. I admit I prefer the yamaha sound sig but overall Im betting the pio to be the better phone.

 
Hm, I like this boosted statement However, you should took in regard music genres, where some headphones show their superiority. Dynamic driver beats isodynamic on complex and fast paced music... Very doubtful, but nevertheless I'm intrigued

So, what kind of music do you listen to?
By the way, do you have measurements?

 

[grizzlybeast]

 

 
who are those people and why aren't they posting here? Have they owned both? Do They currently have both? is it one person in a PM? I could be wrong because  I dont have both at the same time. but those are questions that come to mind.
 
These things embarrassed the he400s. I doubt the yamaha will do the same. I admit I prefer the yamaha sound sig but overall Im betting the pio to be the better phone.

Sorry, I wasn't very clear.

People say that the Yammies are better than HD650's, so I was saying if the Pios are better than the Yammies, then the Pios should be better than the HD650.

You were just detailing the sound signature is better because of the bass, and not other things, right?  Your chart was overwhelmingly towards the Pioneers.

Also, Do people prefer a better sound stage, or sound signature?

Its generally counted in merit if a headphone has a spacious sound. If it sounds closed in or restricted most people don't like it.
 
Sound signature is even more subjective. I also find the hd650 sound signature to be my preference over the Alpha Dog, and def the yamahas( no way they are better than the hd650 sound signature or not. A well amped hd650 is not to be mentioned in the same sentence) The Alpha Dog is the better headphone in merit and sound quality to the Mad dogs but I like the mad dogs sound signature better. I like warm and rich sounds over lean and bright ones. I prefer a little color over neutrality because it sounds more natural to my ears that way. I am 33 so my ears are still a bit sensitive to treble and tolerant of bass.

 

Originally Posted by grizzlybeast /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
These things embarrassed the he400s. I doubt the yamaha will do the same. I admit I prefer the yamaha sound sig but overall Im betting the pio to be the better phone.

 
Hm, I like this boosted statement However, you should took in regard music genres, where some headphones show their superiority. Dynamic driver beats isodynamic on complex and fast paced music... Very doubtful, but nevertheless I'm intrigued

So, what kind of music do you listen to?
By the way, do you have measurements?

I listen to jazz, hip hop, electronic experimental instrumentals, contemporary christian worship music, dub step, reggae, and post rock.
 
I have no measurements.
 
The hrm-7 vs he400S after comparisons and having them both here as I type.
tighter bass: hrm-7
easier detail perception: hrm-7
deeper bass: hrm-7
bigger sounstage: hrm-7
better midrange tonality: 400S
better voc 400S
treble extension: hrm-7
liquidity: 400S
Openness (less reflectialsn or reverberations from cups): 400S
Clarity: can go either way depending on the song. 400S gets the edge.
better imaging & instrument separation: hrm-7
 
You can interpret that for the hrm-7 or against the 400S. Take your pick. Either the 400S doesn't behave like you would expect from an open back planar or HRM-7 is a bit unique compared to what I have had the chance to audition/buy.
 
To understand how I look at things, the he-4 (sounded hecks more open than the X and airy as well, just as fast too) embarrassed the Audeze LCD-X on songs even though the Audeze is better. Just not 1100 better or even 300 dollars better and based on what you would expect. Certain headphones make you raise your eyebrows very high when you compare them directly. The Hrm-7 would not be expected to have tighter bass, better instrument separation, or bass extension than an open back planar.

 

[Eurobeat]

   
Hm, I like this boosted statement However, you should took in regard music genres, where some headphones show their superiority. Dynamic driver beats isodynamic on complex and fast paced music... Very doubtful, but nevertheless I'm intrigued

So, what kind of music do you listen to?
By the way, do you have measurements?

Well that's the thing for me.  I listen to both "Complex" and "Fast paced music."  What drivers do these have?  So I want to look for headphones with Dynamic drivers?

Interesting comments, thank you .

You can see the kind of music I listen to in this thread.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/779971/need-help-finding-a-great-pair-of-headphones-please-details-inside
 

  Its generally counted in merit if a headphone has a spacious sound. If it sounds closed in or restricted most people don't like it.
 
Sound signature is even more subjective. I also find the hd650 sound signature to be my preference over the Alpha Dog, and def the yamahas( no way they are better than the hd650 sound signature or not. A well amped hd650 is not to be mentioned in the same sentence) The Alpha Dog is the better headphone in merit and sound quality to the Mad dogs but I like the mad dogs sound signature better. I like warm and rich sounds over lean and bright ones. I prefer a little color over neutrality because it sounds more natural to my ears that way. I am 33 so my ears are still a bit sensitive to treble and tolerant of bass.
I listen to jazz, hip hop, electronic experimental instrumentals, contemporary christian worship music, dub step, reggae, and post rock.
 
I have no measurements.
 
The hrm-7 vs he400S after comparisons and having them both here as I type.
tighter bass: hrm-7
easier detail perception: hrm-7
deeper bass: hrm-7
bigger sounstage: hrm-7
better midrange tonality: 400S
better voc 400S
treble extension: hrm-7
liquidity: 400S
Openness (less reflectialsn or reverberations from cups): 400S
Clarity: can go either way depending on the song. 400S gets the edge.
better imaging & instrument separation: hrm-7
 
You can interpret that for the hrm-7 or against the 400S. Take your pick. Either the 400S doesn't behave like you would expect from an open back planar or HRM-7 is a bit unique compared to what I have had the chance to audition/buy.
 
To understand how I look at things, the he-4 (sounded hecks more open than the X and airy as well, just as fast too) embarrassed the Audeze LCD-X on songs even though the Audeze is better. Just not 1100 better or even 300 dollars better and based on what you would expect. Certain headphones make you raise your eyebrows very high when you compare them directly. The Hrm-7 would not be expected to have tighter bass, better instrument separation, or bass extension than an open back planar.

It seems that a lot of importance comes to the gear you have.  If you have have a Good Amp/DAC, and possibly even a good soundcard you wont get the best sound.

That brings up another point, if you have a really expensive Amp/DAC, but your soundcard is crap, will that affect the music, or does your Amp/DAC do all the heavy lifting?  Would a better soundcard change anything... or no (unless it's better than the Amp/DAC you have)?

Thanks.

So many subjective choices, so many different listening preferences...

I hope I make the right choice, for what I like...

http://www.head-fi.org/t/779971/need-help-finding-a-great-pair-of-headphones-please-details-inside