Orthodynamic Roundup
Jul 1, 2010 at 4:43 PM Post #14,851 of 27,139
I think those vintage electrets weren't better than the vintage orthos. At least the only electret I heard wasn't too convincing, except in the treble region of course.... So I can't see how that would make stats kings of the hill.
 
And at the end of the day, the sound is what matters. Only the people that have both stats and orthos can say anything about the position on different hills...
 
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Originally Posted by Sambones /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
And, further, I think the reason that Stats are the king of the hill is not because of any expenses in production, but, again, sales models. Sure, you could make a cheap stat. That's what electrets were meant to be. The problem is that a comparable dynamic would still be far cheaper in R&D and materials, as well as not being a dipole. The same problem definitely still exists with Orthos. So, I don't think we're ever going to see a mainstream ortho. The closest I think you're gonna get is in a SFI in a donorphone.



 
Jul 1, 2010 at 5:58 PM Post #14,852 of 27,139


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True, part of the problem with the old orthos was that they were built to a price, but they were considered rather spendy bitd, especially the totl models. The problem was, yes, damping. It's not likely the engineers wanted the headphones to sound that way; it's more likely someone in accounting told them they couldn't apply a damping layer because of the slight but significant added cost. Mostly it's a nagging mystery.
 
I wouldn't say they were overlooked. The US market for a better headphone was small because the market for headphones in the US was small. In Europe, PMB was cranking these things out. The Russians and East Germans had ortho 'phones. The Germans had a bit of a head start on this kind of driver, though. Do a search for <klangfilm> and look for the ortho speakers used for theaters.
 
As we now know, getting any headphone to sound really really good means it's going to be spendy and if it's spendy the market will be minuscule. I think they were testing the market back then and were hoping it would open up and go on its own. It didn't. I don't know why orthos died out in Europe. Anyone?

KlangFilm used orthos in their film speakers? I heard big KlangFilm horn speakers but they used dynamic drivers. I know they had crazy field coil drivers, but orthos, really?
 
Jul 1, 2010 at 9:51 PM Post #14,854 of 27,139
I may be wrong on the linearity issue, I just think that electrostatic field tension in an ESL has less variation whithin the whole assembly, than the magnetic field in the ortho. But probably, it won't make for a lot of difference, what matters is the diaphragm weight. We don't know it precisely, but it can be more or less calculated from known impedance of headphones, and for many 'phones, we even know it. Next-gen materials, such as graphene or, even better carbon nanotubes(but I'd stay sceptical on those) would allow to greatly reduce diaphragm weight. As far as I get it, the ESLs are sufficiently damped by free air, thanks to the light diaphragm, while orthos' heavier diaphragm requires increasing air resistance by other means. Such next-gen, air-damped orthos would be equal to stats( Again, I do not have the really deep insight into theory, s I may be wrong). But the drawback is that they would be pretty much completely non-DIYable.
 
And that is pretty much the reason for my faving of stats. DIY is the only way for me to get good sound. So the only option is ES-phones. Maybe, I should've known about orthos 3 years yearlier, buy a TDS-15 or 16, make an amp for it and be more or less happy. But the 'phones are already in the development, so..
 
Well, that was quite off-topic, sorry.
 
Jul 2, 2010 at 12:51 AM Post #14,855 of 27,139

Quote:
 
And that is pretty much the reason for my faving of stats. DIY is the only way for me to get good sound. So the only option is ES-phones. Maybe, I should've known about orthos 3 years yearlier, buy a TDS-15 or 16, make an amp for it and be more or less happy. But the 'phones are already in the development, so..

DIY is probably the funnest way to audio nirvana. 
beerchug.gif

 
 
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They had some Blatzsomethingsomething (can't recall the name) that was like a forbidden planet robot monster steam punk ice-making fridge looking thing. 




lol? 
 
Jul 2, 2010 at 12:56 AM Post #14,856 of 27,139
Blatthaller is the word you're thinking of, JE, and yes, it really does look rather frightening. I think they were designed and built by Siemens. As I've said elsewhere, the Germans really owned this technology for many years, which is one of the reasons I'm puzzled they gave up on it around the same time Yamaha did. Maybe they figured they'd never get the mass down to where Sony was with its new MDR series of ultralight dynamics. Still, the YHDs are not a bad try at a miniaturized lightweight headphone using an uncompromised (ie, not single-ended to save weight) ortho driver. Heck, the Germans invented the lightweight headphone too, but chose not to compete until much later. As Spike Milligan once said many times, "It's all rather confusing, really."
 
Jul 2, 2010 at 1:20 AM Post #14,857 of 27,139
Come to think of it, it wouldn't be bad idea for a headphone company that really wanted to make a Mainstream Ortho to start with something like an updated, upgraded SFI: design a miniaturized version of the T30 driver using NdFeB slotted disks with an Audezelike ultralight tensioned diaphragm, design it for mass production, and make the dipole sound a selling point. After all, 'stats are dipoles too.
 
And orthos are, in principle, simple. Orthos have quality control problems that must be mastered (tension, thickness of voice coil, machining the magnets for flatness, driver matching, etc), but once that's done, they're not that difficult. No high voltage, no tricky centering the voice coil exactly in the magnet gap. It's the initial investment in the tools required to monitor these new bits as they fly past that's the sticky part. A mainstream ortho can be made-- look at the Wharfedale, which still sounds good today. It's engineering a good modern design for mass production, then making that scary initial investment that's the trick.
 
As for orthos vs. electrets: There were certainly some bad electret 'phones, but overall, vintage electrets from Stax and Sony were clearly superior to contemporaneous orthos, which, as we well know, sound smooth but dull. The Stax SR-30 actually has bass, surprising for a Stax of the time. The Sony has even more bass. On the other hand, even these were expensive 'phones back then. The Yama Orthos were somewhat expensive, but the HP-2 and 3 were not too pricey. They didn't compete with even the cheap 'stats at their price level, so it's a little unfair to compare them.
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Jul 2, 2010 at 2:46 AM Post #14,861 of 27,139


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But then Isn't the only stat done right is O2
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I have only heard SR-404LE and O2, and O2 was MILES ahead of the 404LE. To be brutally honest with you, I disliked the SR404LE pretty heavily (I seemed to be the only one at the meet of 16 odd people). The O2 was a dream come true though 
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Jul 2, 2010 at 2:59 AM Post #14,862 of 27,139
Speaking of old orthos, do you use the old T50 you got a lot, or is some other can getting all the head-time?
 
Quote:
 
As for orthos vs. electrets: There were certainly some bad electret 'phones, but overall, vintage electrets from Stax and Sony were clearly superior to contemporaneous orthos, which, as we well know, sound smooth but dull. The Stax SR-30 actually has bass, surprising for a Stax of the time. The Sony has even more bass. On the other hand, even these were expensive 'phones back then. The Yama Orthos were somewhat expensive, but the HP-2 and 3 were not too pricey. They didn't compete with even the cheap 'stats at their price level, so it's a little unfair to compare them.
.



 
Jul 2, 2010 at 3:10 AM Post #14,863 of 27,139
Yamaha really left out dampening materials to save costs from materials?  How much does felt cost, especially when purchased in bulk for a production run like that?  Can't be more than a couple cents per phone.  They probably already had the R&D done.  I imagine the engineers were listening to their proto YH-100's damped to perfection
 
Jul 2, 2010 at 3:56 AM Post #14,864 of 27,139
^^ not totally true.
They did use foam on the back of driver. Also the vents are damped with a thick felt like material.
The front of HP50A has a white fleece paper like material.
And the YH1k had the whole differential dampening scheme.
 
I believe that while they realized that the best way to dampen the drivers was differentially with multiple layers of accoustically different materials, but the costs involved with the process were probably too high to be transferred to anything but their flagship headphone.
 
And felt was hardly the material used in any of premium vintage planars. The choice seemed to be a yellow fibreglass like biscuit & that stuff is actually a bit costly.
 

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