[jageur272]

Kabeer, have you thought about trying a beyerdynamic headband?  The DT770-DT990 series have a headband that was a perfect replacement for the headband on my Pioneer SE-500 and the headband for the DT100/DT150 series is larger if needed.  If not, I have an old "SoundDesign" headphone with a nice big headband.  PM me if you still need it.

 

[Nevod]

I have read some on ortho/isodynamics and still haven't found out what was really wrong in all the vintage orthos, that made them sound so bad, compared with modern high-end orthos? Is this a lack of damping (most mods focus on damping), something with earpad construction (vintage and modern pads are quite different, it seems) or something with too much reflection whithin the can ( modern ones look much more open than vintages).

 

[DefectiveAudioComponent]

Some vintage orthos are very nice.
 
However, the new high-end orthos compete with new stronger magnets, headsets that have fewer compromises....
 
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I have read some on ortho/isodynamics and still haven't found out what was really wrong in all the vintage orthos, that made them sound so bad, compared with modern high-end orthos? Is this a lack of damping (most mods focus on damping), something with earpad construction (vintage and modern pads are quite different, it seems) or something with too much reflection whithin the can ( modern ones look much more open than vintages).

 

[Nevod]

It just looks like back in the 70s/80s hedphones were overlooked, not considered really important. Nowadays, they're certainly a strong force.
 
By the way, are there any photos of LCD-2's drivers? I'd like to peek at the heart of what seems to be the best ortho.
 
I'm glad that orthos are resurrecting. 'Stats will probably still be the king of the hill when it comes to sound, but the requirement of a special amplifier is what keeps them away from people. Orthos, on the other hand, have potential to be really popular.
 
Hope that Fischer will release their ortho phones soon, and that they will be on par with other great planars out there, being at once affordable and availible there..

 

[Sambones]

Since orthos cost more in materials than do dynamics, the only place for orthos in the modern market is in the mid-to-high-end market. This is a market that didn't exist back in the ortho hay-day. Since the orthos had to compete in the same price bracket as the cheapo, poorly constructed dynamics of the day (there are plenty of good vintage dynamics, though -- at least as many as there are orthos), they were forced to compromise. The problem wasn't inherent to the vintage orthos, but to their sales models. While the original Yamaha line of orthos were quite bass heavy and underdamped, The Yamaha YH-1000 and Fostex T50 (the original) were a different story. The latter were designed for a much more discerning crowd, and so were afforded a much higher price-tag. This gave them more headroom to trade bass for the impulse response and the smooth mids and highs that orthos are now known for. Unfortunately, while they were better than the lesser yammies and Fostexes, they are far rarer, due to their higher price-tag.
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I have read some on ortho/isodynamics and still haven't found out what was really wrong in all the vintage orthos, that made them sound so bad, compared with modern high-end orthos? Is this a lack of damping (most mods focus on damping), something with earpad construction (vintage and modern pads are quite different, it seems) or something with too much reflection whithin the can ( modern ones look much more open than vintages).

 

[DefectiveAudioComponent]

The vintage orthos did have some competition with vintage electrets and stats. (I won't say anything about whether the stats were high-end, but I sure thought that the vintage stat I tried sounded good.)
 
One headphone review preferred the Sennheiser Unipolar over the Yamaha YH-1000. Sparklier highs in the Unipolar, the reviewer though.
 
I haven't heard any good reason to believe that stats will be "king of the hill" in the future.

 

[wualta]

True, part of the problem with the old orthos was that they were built to a price, but they were considered rather spendy bitd, especially the totl models. The problem was, yes, damping. It's not likely the engineers wanted the headphones to sound that way; it's more likely someone in accounting told them they couldn't apply a damping layer because of the slight but significant added cost. Mostly it's a nagging mystery.
 
I wouldn't say they were overlooked. The US market for a better headphone was small because the market for headphones in the US was small. In Europe, PMB was cranking these things out. The Russians and East Germans had ortho 'phones. The Germans had a bit of a head start on this kind of driver, though. Do a search for <klangfilm> and look for the ortho speakers used for theaters.
 
As we now know, getting any headphone to sound really really good means it's going to be spendy and if it's spendy the market will be minuscule. I think they were testing the market back then and were hoping it would open up and go on its own. It didn't. I don't know why orthos died out in Europe. Anyone?

 

[JadeEast]

My best guess.

 

[wualta]

A good guess. I've never seen a PMB equivalent of the YHD series. But they could've made them-- they simply didn't. So something even more sinister than the Walkman was afoot.

 

[Kabeer]

Quote:

A good guess. I've never seen a PMB equivalent of the YHD series. But they could've made them-- they simply didn't. So something even more sinister than the Walkman was afoot.

A dynamic maffia cartel?
 
I think the Walkman and costs were the reason too. The YHD series while small, still required a lot of power, more than dynamics. Maybe PMB just felt it wasnt worth it.... But saying that. if the YH5m could achieve such sensitivity, there were still ways around it...
So im gonna put my money on making light dynamics were cheaper, and the companies went where the money was.

 

[Nevod]

Well, most of the audio equipment's price is R&D and brand. Even neodymium magnets aren't so expensive, and given mass(i.e. really mass) production, orthos can be made more or less cheap, I think.
 
As for why I think stats will still be the king of the hill - because the technology itself is somewhat more linear and the membrane is noticeably lighter. But stats will only prevail in the absolutely-top level, if ortho tendency will continue, Stax will probably make something better than Omegas. Or the other way round, stats can be made cheap - but only the headphones themselves, they would still need an expensive and special amplifier, or at least a transformer box, connected - again - to amplifier. That's why I don't see them dominating mass market at all, while orthos can be (well, hardly, but it's possible) used without an amp, or with a 'common and normal' headphone amp.
 

 

[DefectiveAudioComponent]

The technology is more linear? What do you mean by that?

(by the way, no one knows the weight of the LCD-1 and LCD-2 membranes, as far as I know...)
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As for why I think stats will still be the king of the hill - because the technology itself is somewhat more linear and the membrane is noticeably lighter.

 

[kwkarth]

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My best guess.

This brings back memories.   Many moons ago I was on a flight from PDX to Boston on a, then new, 777.  I had a mileage + upgrade to first class and I was sitting right in the front row, getting ready to watch a movie, but I was listening to my blue Walkman while I waited.  I was listening to a new album I had recently bought, "Together Again For the First Time", Mel Torme and Buddy Rich, and I was really enjoying it.  This gentleman walks up and asks if I minded if he sits in the front row to watch the movie too.  It was the velvet frog himself, Mel Torme.  He hadn't listened to the album since it had been released.  It was a great flight, great to talk to Mel, and I don't have any recollection what the movie was.  Subsequent to the flight, Mel bought a Walkman for his daughter.

  I was not listening to orthos at the time. 

 

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Well, most of the audio equipment's price is R&D and brand. Even neodymium magnets aren't so expensive, and given mass(i.e. really mass) production, orthos can be made more or less cheap, I think.
 
As for why I think stats will still be the king of the hill - because the technology itself is somewhat more linear and the membrane is noticeably lighter. But stats will only prevail in the absolutely-top level, if ortho tendency will continue, Stax will probably make something better than Omegas. Or the other way round, stats can be made cheap - but only the headphones themselves, they would still need an expensive and special amplifier, or at least a transformer box, connected - again - to amplifier. That's why I don't see them dominating mass market at all, while orthos can be (well, hardly, but it's possible) used without an amp, or with a 'common and normal' headphone amp.
 

 
"the technology itself is somewhat more linear"  Still doesn't make sense.  More "linear" than what?  Linear as in the opposite of non linear?

 

[Sambones]

What about the backwave? Maybe that's a more pertinent reason why Orthos never made it. Because of their nature as a dipole transducer, you have to make allowances for what to do with the backwave. The Grados just wouldn't work as orthos, because there isn't a seal on the ear. You wouldn't have any bass to speak of.
 
And, further, I think the reason that Stats are the king of the hill is not because of any expenses in production, but, again, sales models. Sure, you could make a cheap stat. That's what electrets were meant to be. The problem is that a comparable dynamic would still be far cheaper in R&D and materials, as well as not being a dipole. The same problem definitely still exists with Orthos. So, I don't think we're ever going to see a mainstream ortho. The closest I think you're gonna get is in a SFI in a donorphone.