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Originally Posted by Riboge /img/forum/go_quote.gif
But he cannot resist going on to polemic falsehoods like that no one has cited testing results that support hearing differences. I have seen many over the many tortured threads on this subject. He may believe this are imperfect and hence inconclusive, but that still is a whole lot more experimental support for hearing a difference between at least some cable pairs than anything he can or has cited to the contrary...
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Again asking me to prove a negative.
Here is the problem with the anecdotal experiences posted on this board... This is way too much to deal with in one post, but I'll give it a shot by boiling each concept down to one or two sentences...
Most of the people who claim cables make a difference refuse to believe in standardized testing procedures. They claim that the differences they hear are not measurable. They use circular logic to invalidate any controlled test- either arguing endlessly with the testing procedures, claiming that a test with one $500 piece of wire doesn't mean that another $500 piece of wire won't sound different, or claiming that the equipment or ears of the listener aren't sensitive enough to detect the difference. They claim that differences are only evident over long term listening, when psycho-acoustic research tells us that auditory memory in humans lasts for seconds, not hours. They seem to have little sense of proportion, with claims that cables make a big difference, when it's obvious that the difference, if it exists, is very, very small. (Otherwise, why wouldn't everyone hear the difference?) There are attempts to make it a status isssue ("You just say you can't hear a difference because you can't *afford* good cables...") When questioned, many of them resort to argumentative techniques that do nothing to make their case- just to bully down people who disagree with them and tell them they have no right to participate in the discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riboge /img/forum/go_quote.gif
And then, alas, the over-the-top stuff about magical thinking and advertorials.
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Both of those issues are directly related to this topic. Magical thinking is an explanation for why expensive equipment always seems to sound better to people. It is also an explanation for why silver and copper are described as sounding "bright" as opposed to "mellow". Obvious examples like Brilliant Pebbles, green felt tip markers and The Clever Little Clock show that magical thinking is alive and well in high end audio. But it doesn't end there... It extends into overkill shielding, cables that are way thicker than they need to be, pointless vibration damping, shaving the edges of CDs, and the ultimate science hoodoo- jitter.
Unless you were around for what hifi was like in the sixties, you don't know what real responsible audio journalism looks like. The engineers employed by stereo magazines had absolutely no contact with the advertising department. The reviewers would rather be fired than give inaccurate advice. Equipment was directly compared and tested. Clear terms and facts and figures were used, not techno jargon and poetical descriptions of the aether.
Am I mad that this sort of unbiased journalism doesn't exist any more. You better frickin' believe it! Do I know how to fight the spread of advertorial? you bet. Horse sense right here in public discussion forums like this are the common sense cross to the advertorial vampire.
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Originally Posted by Riboge /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Don't be fooled by what you think you hear, you will inevitably be placeboed by the ads and hype so don't listen to them or the cables but listen to him who will lead you from, horrors!, the wasting of money.
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Here is why I care about how you spend your money... When I was just starting out in the hobby, I hung out with some friends of my brother who were older and more experienced than I was. They gave me teriffic advice on how to put together a great system on a budget. On a meager student's budget, I was able to put together a darn good system that compared remarkably well to the all MacIntosh system my brother blew thousands and thousands of dollars on.
I'm here to return the favor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riboge /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Which is not to say, I repeat sincerely, that he does not have creditable position on this matter save for the extremeness of how far he goes with it.
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It isn't extremism. It's passion.
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Originally Posted by Riboge /img/forum/go_quote.gif
He says amps make a difference worth pursuing while cables don't. I wonder if he noted in the article, in case he wasn't already aware of it, that many of his fellow engineering-types don't believe in amp differences either.
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Yes. I can give you a little history lesson on that debate too... There was an equipment reviewer for Stereo Review, I believe, who tested a bunch of solid state amps and determined that they were for all intents and purposes identical sounding. When he reported his findings the advertising department raised a huge furor and it stirred up dust all over the hifi community. He held his ground and gained the respect of a lot of people for putting his neck on the line for what he believed.
The problem was, audiophiles were applying the common sense they had back in the tube days to solid state amps. A lot of that just didn't apply any more. The exact same thing happened with CDs- in fact the fixation on vibration damping feet on CD players goes back to the vinyl days when acoustic feedback was a real problem. It's totally irrelevent today.
In any case, if you have a perspective on the way things have been going since the 60s, you'll realize that there really was no limitation on sound quality in the recording of music. The only limitations were the quality of the playback equipment. In the old days, good sound was costly. Now, you can buy an iPod that has sound quality better than any turntable we had back in the 70s, and it can hold more than a room full of records. That's pretty darn good in my book.
The last 5% of sound quality was captured in the digital age. It's a waste of time to go around crossing t's and dotting i's. The challenge now is how to incorporate digital music into our lives. Apple is making great strides there.
Well, that's way too much information to squeeze into one post. Suffice it to say that when I was 17 years old, and I was just starting out with building a really good stereo, I listened carefully to the advice of people who had been at it longer than I had. I didn't argue with them. I pumped them for useful information. Internet chat boards breed sloppy habits in some people. The idea is to share information, not to win battles. Some kids just need to open their minds and their ears a little. I know I'm always happy when I stumble across someone here that knows more about something than I do. Getting new ideas and solid practical advice is why I'm here.
See ya
Steve