[EddieE]

There have been some oddly defensive (as well as some very reasoned) responses to my question. I wasn't trying to cause any trouble, I was actually interested to see how far people would go for headphones.
 
Whether or not people are happy to admit it, at least for me, in this country, these headphones predicted price are heading into the same territory as quality electrostatic speakers. No, I didn't mention the amp, the source and so on for speakers, but neither did I mention them for the headphones either, and electrostatic headphone amps of the highest quality are hardly inexpensive.
 
I do find it interesting where people's upper ceiling is. Of course I realise many out there can practically afford these, but what I want to know is whether anyone thought it was worth it.
 
There are lots of things about headphones I actually love enough to say that even when, in the far future when I can finally afford a quality speaker rig and listening room, I will still have a couple of pairs on hand.
 
But there are some things speakers can do headphone never can, and I doubt you would find many who would not conceed they were superior even if they did love headphoens for their own sake. 
 
My question was simple - who on this thread is actually going to buy them. I'm glad some of you are and I look forward to hearing your impressions when they are released.
 
It would have been depressing indeed if a flagship arrived which no one at all would stretch for, and so no one had any extended experience with.

 

[davidhunternyc]

Machined aluminum! Nice, and what an improvement. I just don't see how anyone could prefer the powder-coated paint finish on the Omega 2's to the C32. Now if Stax could do something about the stitching on the earcups. Please, Stax, take a look at a Hermes birkin bag. Sorry, but I'm anal.
 

 

[edstrelow]

Quote:

But there are some things speakers can do headphone never can, and I doubt you would find many who would not conceed they were superior even if they did love headphoens for their own sake. 
 
My question was simple - who on this thread is actually going to buy them. I'm glad some of you are and I look forward to hearing your impressions when they are released.
 
It would have been depressing indeed if a flagship arrived which no one at all would stretch for, and so no one had any extended experience with.

I always find it amazing in a headphone site that people claim some superiority for the speaker listening experience.  As a simple fact, and non of this IMHO crap on this issue, speaker listening is fundamentally defective becasue it feeds both channels to both ears.  The fact that speaker stereo works at all is a testament to the ability of our ears and brains to make sense of the incoherent spatial message that speakers give.   Certainly phones have their own limitations but I listen to them to get a purer stereo listening experience  where my ears are basically where the micophones are. 
 
As regards super high end phones, part of the appeal will to experience recorded music in its purest form which is something no speakers will deliver and it doesn't matter if they cost $M1 each. 
 
As to whether the C32 would be worth more than other high end phones such as the 007, (for me the would be the Sigma/404)  time will tell.  But I do think Stax runs the risk of pricing themselves out of the market as they did some years back when they were forced into bankruptcy because of the range of high-end stuff they were making.  I would hate to see them going out of business again because they bite off more than they can chew.

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

I always find it amazing in a headphone site that people claim some superiority for the speaker listening experience.  As a simple fact, and non of this IMHO crap on this issue, speaker listening is fundamentally defective becasue it feeds both channels to both ears.  The fact that speaker stereo works at all is a testament to the ability of our ears and brains to make sense of the incoherent spatial message that speakers give.   Certainly phones have their own limitations but I listen to them to get a purer stereo listening experience  where my ears are basically where the micophones are.

 
Only if you're listening to binaural recordings...

 

[purk]

Quote:

As to whether the C32 would be worth more than other high end phones such as the 007, (for me the would be the Sigma/404)  time will tell.  But I do think Stax runs the risk of pricing themselves out of the market as they did some years back when they were forced into bankruptcy because of the range of high-end stuff they were making.  I would hate to see them going out of business again because they bite off more than they can chew.

 
That's a good point.  That's why I stress about the price on the C32.  If Stax priced their new flagship at 4000 USD, it will be very popular.  Anything north of $4500, it will take years for them to sell out.  There are also an extra cost for the amp.   

 

[pabbi1]

I don't know how many actual buyers are participating on this thread, but I suspect to know at least 10 day one buyers for this product. I won't be a day one, but I will be an eventual buyer, and almost for certain within the year. It _sounds_ (to the extent you can TALK about sound reproduction) that Stax has addressed what I found lacking in the OII, so we'll see how these perform. Now, to see about an amp that will match. 

 

[DaveBSC]

Quote:

I always find it amazing in a headphone site that people claim some superiority for the speaker listening experience.  As a simple fact, and non of this IMHO crap on this issue, speaker listening is fundamentally defective becasue it feeds both channels to both ears.  The fact that speaker stereo works at all is a testament to the ability of our ears and brains to make sense of the incoherent spatial message that speakers give.   Certainly phones have their own limitations but I listen to them to get a purer stereo listening experience  where my ears are basically where the micophones are.

When you listen to live music, you are hearing everything in both ears. That's more of the experience that loudspeakers provide. Loudspeakers when given what they need to do their job properly (several feet of space from the front and side walls, room treatments at the various reflection points, and a properly placed listening position) can work wonders. Indeed the most enjoyable recorded music listening experience I've ever had was from loudspeakers. Speakers can be a PITA though. They can be hyper finicky about placement and toe-in, and their magic imaging can collapse if you move your head left or right, or even adjust your position in the chair. 
 
My office is just not conducive to good sound from speakers. It's too small which creates serious problems with bass response, and I can't place speakers far enough away from the walls to create any sort of depth to the soundstage. I could stuff it full of tube traps and panels and diffusers and skylines on the ceiling to try to fix it, or I could just listen to headphones.

 

[tonereef]

Whether listening to headphones, speakers, or live unamplified music, wouldn't your dip at 5-6K be your personal "default" setting for what sounds natural? And so if that's what you're used to, it's hard to understand why you'd prefer listening to a phone that bumped up the highs -  also they probably wouldn't be doing so in the same rather narrow notch as your hearing dip anyway.
 
Quote:

 
One thing I did last week when getting fitted for IEM's by an audiologist (rubber molds made), was to get my hearing thoroughly checked out of curiosity.  Had him do several passes on each ear, and the results were quite interesting.  Was able to get a curve plot of my hearing (between ear shape and canal shape, we of course have the factor of one's hearing itself which is naturally overlaid over any equipment we listen to which goes to show why personal "preference" / hearing curves are so important).  Turns out I have above average/normal hearing across most of the spectrum, but a dip in sensitivity/hearing around 5-6khz, still within the range of normal, but lower than other areas by a crude estimate of 8-10db (the differential being the key, not my capability to hear).  This is pretty significant!!  He told me this (lower sensitivity in this range) is very common and typical in terms of where hearing can be impacted by loud sounds / concerts, etc.  So point being, I'm guessing if we had the HE90's measured, they would have a lift in and around this region (the reverb-like effect aside for a moment).  So perhaps for my ears the HE90's are performing an EQ function and they sound more neutral / flat to me than they may others because of this.  I will also admit to have selected tubes that compliment the headphones very nicely in the lower registers to make them sound more rich/full where they are otherwise a little lighter.  The net effect of it is an exceedingly positive (and highly tuned/customed likely) sound that I love.  But I thought you guys would find the hearing response curve interesting.  Perhaps at CanJams, as opposed to just response curve measurements of headphones done, this should be done as well as it's probably just as important... (given how much focus is placed on just the curve of the headphones/drivers)

 

[InnerSpace]

Quote:

Loudspeakers when given what they need to do their job properly (several feet of space from the front and side walls, room treatments at the various reflection points, and a properly placed listening position) can work wonders. Indeed the most enjoyable recorded music listening experience I've ever had was from loudspeakers. Speakers can be a PITA though.

Totally agree with both points.  I have heard (and had) some amazing, amazing loudspeaker systems.  But if I wanted one now, I'd have to sell my apartment, move out of the city, buy a house and a car, get yard service, pay through the nose for school taxes, etc, etc ... we're looking at seven figures here, easy.  Makes the C32 an absolute bargain, I'd say.

 

[Double F]

 
Quote:

Quote:

Loudspeakers when given what they need to do their job properly (several feet of space from the front and side walls, room treatments at the various reflection points, and a properly placed listening position) can work wonders. Indeed the most enjoyable recorded music listening experience I've ever had was from loudspeakers. Speakers can be a PITA though.

Totally agree with both points.  I have heard (and had) some amazing, amazing loudspeaker systems.  But if I wanted one now, I'd have to sell my apartment, move out of the city, buy a house and a car, get yard service, pay through the nose for school taxes, etc, etc ... we're looking at seven figures here, easy.  Makes the C32 an absolute bargain, I'd say.

Wow, I never thought of it that way!

 

[arnaud]

 
Quote:

As regards super high end phones, part of the appeal will to experience recorded music in its purest form which is something no speakers will deliver and it doesn't matter if they cost $M1 each. 

 
x2. This is particularly true with electrostatic headphones, and even more striking this time around with the C32. I keep going to audio shows here in Tokyo every year, listening to top shelfs speakers. I also go to well setup audio showrooms from times to time. Nothing has convinced me to go back to speakers in the past 10 years. From my auditioning the C32, I don't see that changing either. Furthermore, now that I live in tiny apartment in Tokyo, I can't see myself owning a proper set of speakers in a well setup room in the next 10 years either! So, even if the C32 were at 6k, it is still to me nothing compared to the cost of a similarly high quality speaker setup.
 
People are mentioning about Magnepans and other Quad panels. This things are a total nightmare to properly setup in a room. The amplification required is also slightly above your entry line Rotel! So, to think that money is better spent on such speaker rig than a good headphone rig is delusional imo. Even with a 6k price tag, the C32 is still 10x cheaper if not more than equally good speaker (again ignoring amplification needs which are also in the range 10-20x more expansive than headphone counterpart). For the soundstaging, it's all a question of getting used to, I am totally fine with headphones (in particular those that image well, Stax C32 is sublime in that regard). For chest sensation with ultra low bass, I don't miss that either. And if I did, I could always invest in a clean subwoofer...
 
 
Quote:

As to whether the C32 would be worth more than other high end phones such as the 007, (for me the would be the Sigma/404)  time will tell.  But I do think Stax runs the risk of pricing themselves out of the market as they did some years back when they were forced into bankruptcy because of the range of high-end stuff they were making.  I would hate to see them going out of business again because they bite off more than they can chew.

 
 
If Ultrasone can sell an Edition for 3k to many people on blind faith (i.e. without prior listening), I have absolutely no doubt that many people will be ready to spend over 4k on the C32 after auditioning. Also, we have to keep in mind that goal is probably not to sell to the most but more to set a new standard in headphone sound reproduction. Many may not be able to afford it at first, but it may get them to purchase more affordable Stax equipment until the day they can afford the top of the line.
Actually, loudspeaker manufacturers pretty much all do this: their flagship model is often many many times more expensive than the mainstream products as a statement of their competence (sometimes incompetence too, ditto the new Sonus Faber). They benefit more from the publicity effect (it helps sell lower end models) than direct sale of the top shelf model.
 
Quote:

But there are some things speakers can do headphone never can, and I doubt you would find many who would not conceed they were superior even if they did love headphoens for their own sake. 

 
Conversely, there are things like clarity and finesse that are pretty difficult to beat in headphones.
 
Quote:

Don't kid yourself in regards to the effects of amplification. Even if this is a little easier to drive than 007s or Omegas, it will sound better out of a DIY T2 or WES or BHSE (not guessing which in particular) than the 727 - that's pretty much guaranteed.

 
Well, I have listened to the C32 through the 727A and it sounded pretty awesome with NONE of the usual problems (uncontrolled bass, collapsed soundstage) of a lack of drive. Is it so impossible to imagine that the new electrode design simply does not require such beefy amplifier to be controlled? KG and Spritzer both say the 727 is actually a potentially good design. Until people spend time with the C32, it is a bit premature to say they will need 5k of amplification to make it sound good.
 
At least, I don't see myself buying a BHSE now that I know what the C32 sounds like though a "cheap" Stax amp. It is still miles better than the competition so why would you need to upgrade the amplifier right away?
 

So if you add it all up - good amp, good source and phones and compare that to good amp, good source, good speakers - the value proposition is rapidly diminishing (Getting the best values, used, DIY etc. where applicable). If you are willing to live with a 727, you could live with a used Rotel or Bryston or something in the speaker world. If you really want a balanced end to end system, you have to factor in equivalents in the speaker and headphone worlds to do a real comparison of value.

 
Yes, this is the delusional part I am referring. I mean come on... Rotel + 5k speaker as comparison to C32+727?? You ought to do yourself a favor: hold your thoughts and wait until you can hear it... No offense, but your comparison is almost as ridiculous as the person who said they'd rather have a bike for that price. Yeah, and someone else would rather have a fishing rod, another one would buy an HDTV. I mean, this discussion is really bizarre!

 

[edstrelow]

Quote:

When you listen to live music, you are hearing everything in both ears. That's more of the experience that loudspeakers provide. Loudspeakers when given what they need to do their job properly (several feet of space from the front and side walls, room treatments at the various reflection points, and a properly placed listening position) can work wonders. Indeed the most enjoyable recorded music listening experience I've ever had was from loudspeakers. Speakers can be a PITA though. They can be hyper finicky about placement and toe-in, and their magic imaging can collapse if you move your head left or right, or even adjust your position in the chair. 
 

 
My point is the apparently little known fact that speaker listening is artifactual because it creates 4 channels out of the original 2 stereo channels because the left speakers goes to both the left and right ear with a slight delay and vice versa.  I have a pair of the old Polk SDA speakers that aattempt to suppress these phantoms by creating out-of phase signals and they work pretty well.  They give you  a very different image than conventional speakers, much more precise and frankly more like headphones.

 

[n3rdling]

Isn't that just natural crossfeed (i.e. the whole reason speakers have a more correct soundstage than headphones on non-binaural recordings)?  Have any credible links to back up your theory?

 

[Edwood]

At first glace the C32 looks like an older headphone and the O2 a newer design.
 
Of course how it sounds is most important, and hopefully the final design will be fully finished.
 
Anything north of $3K is going to seriously limit their sales given the current global economy. 

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

I just hope that the C32 wasn't tuned to sound good with the SRM-727 in such a way that it sounds bad with all the other amps.