[EddieE]

I'm talking £ when I say k and after customs/vat/shipping if these are 6k in the US there won't be a big difference in £. Let's say it'll end up being 4k best, if not more.
 
In terms of £ quads range from 3.5 - 6k, I couldn't find any model of quad that couldn't be had for 6k on google shopping and the most expensive electrostatic speakers I could find anywhere on the internet (with inbuilt dynamic subs) don't top 10k.
 
The bottom line is, this is a set of electrostatic headphones in the same basic ball park as decent to high end electrostatic speakers.
 
There's a lot of waving away of the price issue, but there is a question - is any one on this thread actually willing to pay that much for headphones?
 
Has anyone on this thread decided they are going to buy them?

 

[jaycalgary]

There is a pair of HE90's on Ebay right now. The seller sounds like a dick by the way he worded the ad in my own opinion though.
 
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140497809473&category=81741&_trksid=p5197.c0.m619

 

[silverlight]

Quote:

The HE90 has a distinctive sound which is superimposed on everything they output.  To me that means they are highly colored as this sound was clearly engineered.  I'm not saying they aren't pleasing to the ear or work well with some music, because they do but neutral they are not.  Also stating that the difference between the two is down to more top end sparkle is much more than just an over simplification. 

Sorry, don't mean to go off topic from the thread (as I'm excited to hear and hear about the c32), but just to respond to Spritzer.  I do agree there are aspects of the presentation that are added w/ these headphones, but I do like it  
 
One thing I did last week when getting fitted for IEM's by an audiologist (rubber molds made), was to get my hearing thoroughly checked out of curiosity.  Had him do several passes on each ear, and the results were quite interesting.  Was able to get a curve plot of my hearing (between ear shape and canal shape, we of course have the factor of one's hearing itself which is naturally overlaid over any equipment we listen to which goes to show why personal "preference" / hearing curves are so important).  Turns out I have above average/normal hearing across most of the spectrum, but a dip in sensitivity/hearing around 5-6khz, still within the range of normal, but lower than other areas by a crude estimate of 8-10db (the differential being the key, not my capability to hear).  This is pretty significant!!  He told me this (lower sensitivity in this range) is very common and typical in terms of where hearing can be impacted by loud sounds / concerts, etc.  So point being, I'm guessing if we had the HE90's measured, they would have a lift in and around this region (the reverb-like effect aside for a moment).  So perhaps for my ears the HE90's are performing an EQ function and they sound more neutral / flat to me than they may others because of this.  I will also admit to have selected tubes that compliment the headphones very nicely in the lower registers to make them sound more rich/full where they are otherwise a little lighter.  The net effect of it is an exceedingly positive (and highly tuned/customed likely) sound that I love.  But I thought you guys would find the hearing response curve interesting.  Perhaps at CanJams, as opposed to just response curve measurements of headphones done, this should be done as well as it's probably just as important... (given how much focus is placed on just the curve of the headphones/drivers)

 

[DaveBSC]

Quote:

The bottom line is, this is a set of electrostatic headphones in the same basic ball park as decent to high end electrostatic speakers.
 
There's a lot of waving away of the price issue, but there is a question - is any one on this thread actually willing to pay that much for headphones?
 
Has anyone on this thread decided they are going to buy them?

I'm not really sure what your point is. You can buy a pair of Martin Logan Source electrostats for a little over 2 grand in the US, less than the current going rate for the O2 Mk2. For that amount of money, I'd much rather have the Omega 2 than the Martin Logan. I'm not sure how hard you looked when you scoured the internet for expensive electrostatic speakers, but real flagships are a lot more than you seem to think. The ML CLX lists for $23,000/pr. Soundlab's Ultimate-1PX costs $36,000/pr. Quad, Innersound, and King's Audio stats are more affordable, they are all still around $10,000/pr in the US.
 
The C32 could be at least among if not the best sounding headphone ever produced. $4-6K for that I don't think is unreasonable, especially compared to something like the Edition 10 where you do have to ask "what am I really paying for here?" $4-6K will not get you a SOTA loudspeaker, not even close to it.
 

 

[rsbrsvp]

If the new C32 costs 3K-   I may be interested, but would wait about half a year to a year to hear more evaluations from listeners.  If it costs 6K,   I would rather get a used Sony R10 for the same money. 
 

 

[DaveBSC]

Quote:

If the new C32 costs 3K-   I may be interested, but would wait about half a year to a year to hear more evaluations from listeners.  If it costs 6K,   I would rather get a used Sony R10 for the same money. 
 

$3K definitely isn't going to happen, not when the O2 Mk2 is now listing for $2,600. I think $4,000-5,000 is more likely. The R10 I'm sure is wonderful, until something goes wrong which is basically inevitable, they are getting old. Then you're SOL.

 

[Uncle Erik]

EddieE, the pricing is why I've checked out of the high-end headphone market. About $1,000-$1,500 (USD) is about the most I can rationalize. Even then, about $300-$500 is where the real value in headphones lies.

Dave, I think you can get superb speakers in the $4,000-$6,000 range. Used Quads fall in there and so do top-end Maggies. They're not finished, but the Linkwitz Orion3 speakers I'm building (only need to build or buy cabinets now) will end up around $5,000. I don't see any reason to spend more. The ESL-63s are about the finest speaker I've ever heard, though I want the low-end extension from the Orion3s. Anything more seems to be an exercise in being able to tell people how much you paid for your rig rather than sonic improvements.

Further, $25,000 will buy me something that grosses about $550 a month and gives me tax deductions. I haven't seen any speakers with numbers quite that good.

 

[DaveBSC]

Quote:

Dave, I think you can get superb speakers in the $4,000-$6,000 range. Used Quads fall in there and so do top-end Maggies. They're not finished, but the Linkwitz Orion3 speakers I'm building (only need to build or buy cabinets now) will end up around $5,000. I don't see any reason to spend more. The ESL-63s are about the finest speaker I've ever heard, though I want the low-end extension from the Orion3s. Anything more seems to be an exercise in being able to tell people how much you paid for your rig rather than sonic improvements.

Sure, you can get great speakers for that amount. Selah Audio offers several impressive speakers for reasonable prices, and the Vapor Audio Cirrus seems like a steal at $3,500/pr. There's a difference between "great" and SOTA though, and these speakers aren't SOTA. In my humble opinion, that's the Rockport Arrakis. Backed by a room and a system worthy of them, I don't think better sound exists short of live musicians. The difference between the C32 and the Arrakis (other than at least $180,000), is that I can listen to the C32 in my office. The Arrakis wouldn't even fit in there, let alone sound good in it.

 

[spritzer]

I for one will buy a set on day 1.  Plenty of others who will do as well. 
 
Quote:

Sorry, don't mean to go off topic from the thread (as I'm excited to hear and hear about the c32), but just to respond to Spritzer.  I do agree there are aspects of the presentation that are added w/ these headphones, but I do like it  
 
One thing I did last week when getting fitted for IEM's by an audiologist (rubber molds made), was to get my hearing thoroughly checked out of curiosity.  Had him do several passes on each ear, and the results were quite interesting.  Was able to get a curve plot of my hearing (between ear shape and canal shape, we of course have the factor of one's hearing itself which is naturally overlaid over any equipment we listen to which goes to show why personal "preference" / hearing curves are so important).  Turns out I have above average/normal hearing across most of the spectrum, but a dip in sensitivity/hearing around 5-6khz, still within the range of normal, but lower than other areas by a crude estimate of 8-10db (the differential being the key, not my capability to hear).  This is pretty significant!!  He told me this (lower sensitivity in this range) is very common and typical in terms of where hearing can be impacted by loud sounds / concerts, etc.  So point being, I'm guessing if we had the HE90's measured, they would have a lift in and around this region (the reverb-like effect aside for a moment).  So perhaps for my ears the HE90's are performing an EQ function and they sound more neutral / flat to me than they may others because of this.  I will also admit to have selected tubes that compliment the headphones very nicely in the lower registers to make them sound more rich/full where they are otherwise a little lighter.  The net effect of it is an exceedingly positive (and highly tuned/customed likely) sound that I love.  But I thought you guys would find the hearing response curve interesting.  Perhaps at CanJams, as opposed to just response curve measurements of headphones done, this should be done as well as it's probably just as important... (given how much focus is placed on just the curve of the headphones/drivers)

That's my point exactly.  Their sound can fit you like a glove but to my ears (and many others, just check out the 1993 Stereophile review) they sound colored.  They are still good and I'm working on getting a brand new set to compare against the C32 when I get it. 

 

[wink]

 
Quote:

   They are still good and I'm working on getting a brand new set to compare against the C32 when I get it.  

 Dream, dream, dream........ All I can do is dream......

 

[DavidMahler]

I posted this in another thread but the the inquiry got no attention, so I'll ask here:
 
Has anyone heard the SR Omega and C32?  If so is the C32 superior?  And lastly, what are the concerns of buying an SR Omega used.  How do the drivers fail and how often do they fail?
 
Thanks!

 

[complin]

 
Quote:

The HE90 has a distinctive sound which is superimposed on everything they output.  To me that means they are highly colored as this sound was clearly engineered.  I'm not saying they aren't pleasing to the ear or work well with some music, because they do but neutral they are not.  Also stating that the difference between the two is down to more top end sparkle is much more than just an over simplification. 

I've read the Stereophile review you pointed us to and had not seen this before.  In fatct the reviewer says the main differences against the Stax are the mid and top end sparkle!  They do point to their perception that the bass on the HE90 is leaner, and as they put it the frequency spectrum is "tipped up" as compared to the Stax.  I would agree that the Orpheus is much brighter on top.  The other staggering conclusion in the review is they put the Koss ans Sennheiser ahead of both Stax and HE90 on Vocals
"Vocals were something of a mixed bag over the Orpheus. That reticence through the upper bass and lower midrange, which reduced the immediacy that's such an important part of vocal reproduction, continued to detract from its overall performance. It shared this quality with the Stax Pro Classic. Like the Stax, the Orpheus is both rather lean and laid-back compared to either the Koss ESP/950 or the Sennheiser 580/HeadRoom Supreme, and neither the Orpheus nor the Stax was quite able to match either of those other 'phones in conveying a convincing rightness through this region. Both were more of an analytical than a generously (and naturally) full-bodied nature."

I have always thought Stax and particularly the Omega to be supreme on conveying vocals.  It just goes to show that any review is always subjective !  I cannot see anywhere in the review where it says specifically the Orpheus is coloured.
 
I love my Stax 007's and would agree they have a very smooth sound, but for me are missing that last bit of top end sparkle particularly on percussion.  I can understand why you feel the Omega's sound neutral, as its more about what they dont do compared to their competitors.  People often say they sound dark, and can appreciate their conclusion when compared to many dynamics which over emphersise certain parts of the sound spectrum
 
The Omega's are one of my most used sets, but in order to get them to perform its well know you need a top end amp (like the Orpheus)  I've adressed this by getting hold of a decent amp after many years searching, which really livened them up, and now produce real bass!  However; for me they still lack that last bit of top end shimmer on cymbals etc, so am experimenting with different interconnets using various combinations of metals (ACS Liveline, LFD grainless copper, KCI Silkworm, Siltech silver & gold) to see if I can achieve my Nirvana

  If anyone can recommend an interconnet they use with their Omega's that might give me what I want then please let me know.
 
If the new C32 can provide that extra extension at the top-end without becoming overly bright (like the Sennheiser HD800), improved headstage then I for one would be delighted

   
 
 

 

[pachku]

 
 
Quote:

...is any one on this thread actually willing to pay that much for headphones?

 
Of course there are. Probably not hundreds, but I find the idea that you can build a comparable speaker system for this price hilarious. You're discussing speakers alone (and not the top high end league, either), never mentioning the amps, the cables, the mods to your special listening room. I've seen people spend well beyond 200k, and not being satisfied... And you're forgetting that not everyone lives in his own house - try running your speaker system in a apartment block during the night... or even when somebody else in your house wants to sleep... So there is for sure a clientele for high end headphones, and without a doubt several of those interested enough the spend 4-6k on a pair. That HE90 on ebay is at 3k with 4 days to go (now there somebody's got to have an amp), some weeks ago a R10 went for 5,5k, even L3000 at close to 3k are not very rare, and all that is old stuff with potential spare parts problems... I'm still building up my first top level chains, so I'll keep mum on any comparisons here, but I'm very much looking forward to those C32 

 

[sonance]

 
Quote:

 
 
Quote:

...is any one on this thread actually willing to pay that much for headphones?

 
Of course there are. Probably not hundreds, but I find the idea that you can build a comparable speaker system for this price hilarious. You're discussing speakers alone (and not the top high end league, either), never mentioning the amps, the cables, the mods to your special listening room. I've seen people spend well beyond 200k, and not being satisfied... And you're forgetting that not everyone lives in his own house - try running your speaker system in a apartment block during the night... or even when somebody else in your house wants to sleep... So there is for sure a clientele for high end headphones, and without a doubt several of those interested enough the spend 4-6k on a pair. That HE90 on ebay is at 3k with 4 days to go (now there somebody's got to have an amp), some weeks ago a R10 went for 5,5k, even L3000 at close to 3k are not very rare, and all that is old stuff with potential spare parts problems... I'm still building up my first top level chains, so I'll keep mum on any comparisons here, but I'm very much looking forward to those C32 

Let's put this in perspective. You would be paying whatever the headphones cost (3K to 6K, let's say) just for the headphones, not for the best full system possible. If you want a C32, there is no used option at this point, and in the early going, there won't be much of a discount buying it used (although imports may be cheaper in the US). If you are comparing it to speaker systems, there are plenty of interesting options in the 3K-6K used market. Look around audiogon (assuming you are familiar with speaker models and values), I would argue that there are some real viable competitors. Sure there are trade-offs, but it's not like all headphones don't have their downsides (some inherent to the physical design of two drivers strapped to your ears, I'd argue.)
 
As good as headphones get, and I am a big proponent of headphones, they have inherent limitations that head-philes such as us are not as bothered with as "regular speakerphiles" or perhaps we should be. In my personal case, it's mainly so that I can crank the music up as loud as I want, whenever I want, without disturbing others, and they generally take up less space, and because they have been significantly cheaper, up to a point. But I have no illusions that when compared to a top notch speaker system, that my headphone rig is free of many of the closed in, in your head sensations, that even the best head-staging 'phones are guilty of - it's just the physics of the thing. I think many of us who listen to headphones a lot have trained their ear/brain to not be as bothered by the inherently wrong soundstage of headphones, but that wrongness is still there if you come back to headphones after extended periods of listening only to a good speaker setup and not listening to headphones. Not to mention the physical impact of high end full range speakers - even the best headphone bass is not as real and physical (to use that word again), IMHO.
 
Now if you are getting within spitting distance of a comparable pair of speakers for a pair of headphones, and you have none of the space and volume restrictions that I do, and financial restrictions limit you to one or the other, you'd be doing yourself a disservice not to consider speakers in this price range. That's a lot of ifs, but there it is.
 
Don't kid yourself in regards to the effects of amplification. Even if this is a little easier to drive than 007s or Omegas, it will sound better out of a DIY T2 or WES or BHSE (not guessing which in particular) than the 717 - that's pretty much guaranteed.
 
So if you add it all up - good amp, good source and phones and compare that to good amp, good source, good speakers - the value proposition is rapidly diminishing (Getting the best values, used, DIY etc. where applicable). If you are willing to live with a 717, you could live with a used Rotel or Bryston or something in the speaker world. If you really want a balanced end to end system, you have to factor in equivalents in the speaker and headphone worlds to do a real comparison of value.
 
This is not to say that the headphone setup won't be a little cheaper, or that 6K headphones have no place - for one, many people buying in this range do not have the financial restrictions, so it's not an either / or thing, they probably have a great speaker system too. For another, many people with families or apartments or other real world listening restrictions, there is a real value to a late night system that can be cranked without shaking loose the rafters, or the ability to enjoy music at work all day without offending others. This ended up being a longer rant than I expected, but I guess these are some of the thoughts going through my head as I try and justify ever escalating headphone purchases.

 

[pachku]

Well, I plan to run those C32 on a (yet to acquire, so don't ask me when I'll get it - somebody who's got one for sale?) BHSE (which can drive my O2Mk1 and the soon-to-arrive HE60, as well)- and I'm absolutely convinced that this will still be a lot cheaper than a qualitatively comparable speaker rig...