My impressions: PROline 750
Dec 15, 2006 at 10:09 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 29

Kees

Headphoneus Supremus
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I have been curious for Ultrasones for a very long time, but I never managed to lay my hands on them for a decent price until recently.
A couple of weeks ago I finally got to listen to them.
Since there is not a lot written about them here, I though it would be nice to share my experience with you.
Here we go:

Intro & conclusion
This is not a review. I don’t claim the authority to be able to do that..
This is just my personal impression of my experience with the PROline 750 headphones.

So you don’t have to read all the rest if you don’t want to I will start at the end:
DO I LIKE THESE PHONES?
YES. I LIKE THEM A LOT.


ARE THEY PERFECT FOR ME?
NO
. I’ll tell you below why not.

ARE THEY PERFECT FOR YOU?
COULD BE
, because they do a lot of things VERY good.

WHAT OTHER PHONES CAN I COMPARE THEM WITH?
They are in my opinion on par with Sennheiser HD650, AKG K701, ATH AD2000, Beyer DT880. Maybe more, but these I know.

WHY THEY ARE NOT PERFECT FOR ME:
TWO main flaws:
Bass reverb in a specific frequency area that, at times and in specific situations can ruin SQ.
A sharpness in the middle and upper frequencies that can make the sound signature a bit artificial.
ONE smaller flaw:
Voices and some instruments (violin, guitar) often sound recessed compared to their accompaniment.


These flaws are not always prominent and often unnoticeable. Some types of sounds or music are more prone to their effects than others.
Also: besides these flaws there is a whole list of things they do excellently and most of the time the pros outweigh the cons easily.
But not allways….

My personal conclusion:
For large symphony orchestras, small Jazz combos, solo instruments (particularly piano) or fusion (and similar music) the PROline 750 are absolutely great.
For rock or vocals: I don’t like them at all.


It took some time to figure out what the deal was, for me, with the PROline 750s.
I listened to a large variety of music when I tried to put a finger on the sound signature of these phones.

General remarks
Look & feel: I like it. No nonsense sturdy, honest plastic in dark blue and depression grey.

Fit: good enough for me. I’m used to the clamping force of the HD650….It doesn’t bother me that they do clamp rather tight.

Used equipment:
Source: Marantz CD12/DA12 LE.
Amps: MF X-can v3 “Pinkie version”, Rudistor NX-33 and Corda Prehead MkII SE.

I did not compare them side by side to my other phones.

SOUND PARTICULARS

What I found after a lot of listening, burn-in and thinking is the following:

Reverb in the low area around 80 Hz. (?)
Causes a wooly weak bass note (in this specific area), specifically for kick drum.
Sound in this area gets weak and without detail. With NO IMPACT at all.
This is BAD for PrAT in rock music.
This also takes the life out of part of the bass (specifically with upright bass), since some of the bass notes get to be loose and without detail.
In this area I cannot discern a kick drum beat from a plucked upright bass: BAD!
The bass presence is rather heavy. This echo-effect causes it to be too heavy sometimes.

Extension in the low frequencies: extremely low.

Extension in the high frequencies: as high as I can hear them (16Khz).

There is a slight sharpness in the upper mids and highs. This is no sibilance.
It is more like a lack of roundness. This is very similar to ss vs. tube sound.
This attributes to very clear articulation, but it also “deadens” the sound a bit. You could call it neutral if you like. It gives you an enormous amount of detail, but on the whole that somehow does not contribute to a “life” feeling. It makes the overall sound slightly artificial.
I have no particular like or dislike for it. Sometimes it works great (piano music) and sometimes it can be annoying (artificial sounding voices).

Soundstage and imaging is really very good in height and width.
In the depth it does some strange tricks sometimes by placing a singer behind drums for instance.

The overall impression is of listening to a band or orchestra in a hall with peculiar acoustics: bad for some, good for others.
Acoustics is something I can easily adjust to or ignore, but still…..

The effects on music
Here I give some specific examples of what I listened to.
I could have given a lot more examples, but they are a good illustration of what I listened to when I came to the above conclusions.

Piano solo: Among the best I ever heard from headphones.
The sound of this instrument does not confront me with the bass echo.
The extreme detail and impact-full presentation emphasize the fact that a piano is a percussion instrument.
The end result I find extremely pleasing.
Clean sparkling highs and articulate lower register.
The sound is full-bodied throughout.
Tonal balance is perfect to my ears.
Music listened to:
Listz: Funerailles, played by Naum Grubert.
Mozart: Piano Sonatas played by Ivan Moravec (a bit more thin and weak).
Chopin played by Vladimir Horowitz.

Orchestra: Very good. The orchestra gets an homogenous sound.
The bass section gets the right impact and body.The reverb may actually do some good in this respect and is less obvious in the whole.
Balance is good: no section stands out.
Placing of instruments and soundstage is very good.
Music listened to:
Beethoven: Fifth piano concerto played by Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli and the Wiener Philharmoniker.
Beethoven: Symphony no 3, played by Frans Bruggen and the orchestra of the 18th century.
Mahler: Symphony no 1, played by Lorin Maazel and the Wiener Philharmoniker.

Chamber music: The acoustic echo-effect of the bass is very present here.
Here the effect is not so good.
Bass tends to drown violins in one-tone notes.
Music listened to:
Vivaldi: La Stravaganza played by Rachel Podger
Uccellini: La Bergamasca, played by The Arcadian Academy.

Voices: The artificiality is most present here. The PROlines do not suggest the presence of a person.
Voices sound very recessed.
Music listened to:
Berlioz: Les nuits d’ été : Frederica von Stade.
Aretha Franklin: Respect.
Valerie Joyce: New York Blue.
Diana Krall: The girl in the other room (way less recessed than the other recordings!!!)

Violin: The effect is the same as with voices. I can’t hear the body of the violin.
Music listened to:
Vivaldi: La Stravaganza, played by Rachel Podger.
Bach: Sonatas and partitas for solo Violin, played by Lucy van Dael on baroque violin.

Guitar: very articulate. Sounds virtuoso rather than lifelike.
Very clear tone. I can hear a lot of details. That can be very engaging, but I miss a bit of warmth: the highs are a tiny bit strident.
Sometimes I hear the reverb-effect.
Over all still very good.
Music listened to:
Villa-Lobos: Music for solo guitar, played by Norbert Kraft.
Leo Kottke: Guitar Music.
Bert Ostlund: Pathfinder.

Bass: Electric bass sounds absolutely awesome.
The upright bass is a bit different story. Some parts (the upper regions) sound wonderful, but the low notes can drown all else if there is an “else”. Solo they sound absolutely amazing.
In a trio or quartet: drums, bass, piano and saxophone or trumpet the other instruments have more than enough impact to survive this.
The result can be absolutely great, like on Summerwind.
If the bass is supposed to accompany only, it can end up wrong.
It is something I could easily live with though. Pros weigh heavier than the cons here for me.
Music listened to:
Stanley Clarke: If this bass could only talk.
Marcus Miller
Jaco Pastorius
Ray Brown: Summerwind
Charles Mingus: Ah Um.

Organ: Very impressive. The bass fits here. The reverb totally disappears in the natural reverb and echo of the organ sound itself. The detail and articulation the 750 provide here truly make music out of a massive wall of sound.
Music listened to:
Bach: Orgelwerke played by Ton Koopman.

Rock: No drive.
Weak kick drum.
The sloppy bass makes the whole sound rather flat and not engaging.
The whole sound is drowning in loose indiscernible bass notes.
This can vary for different recordings: on some it is disastrous (Fleetwood Mac: “I’m so afraid” on “The Dance”, one of my all time favorite rock tracks). On some recordings it is not so bad: The Band’s “The Last Waltz” sounds pretty good on the whole.
Music listened to:
Fleetwood Mac: The dance.
The Band: The last Waltz.
Santana: Abraxas
David Bowie: Diamond Dogs, Heroes ….
Lots more.

Jazz: Just a small sample. Also because Kind of Blue is a well known reference to a lot of people.
Bass is just a bit overwhelming sometimes.
The sound is intimate enough to hit the right mood.
The intro bass on “So What” is far too weak and powerless.
Trumpet is brilliant though.
On the whole not bad, but not the best either.
On “Sketches of Spain”, which is orchestral, everything works a bit better, but on the whole everything sounds somewhat powerless.
Music listened to:
Miles Davis: Kind of Blue
Miles Davis: Sketches of Spain.
The Sonny Clark Memorial Quartet: Voodoo
Mingus: Ah Um.

Fusion / Jazz Rock: Amazingly good. These phones are excellent for this kind of music.
All details come across crystal clear.
All sound effects are there and all registers from the highest highs to subterranean lows have presence.
Music listened to:
Herbie Han****: Crossings
Miles Davis: Amandla
Lots more

Well: that's it folks. For now.
Thanks for reading.

Herbie got dismembered.
frown.gif


___________________Added later:________________________________
I have to add that this also varies with different amps. That is why I tried them on three different amps, to make shure what I heard were the phones and not the amp.
The reverb/bass effect was by far the worst on the X-can v3. The tube sound gave them a bit warmth in the highs though.
On the Prehead the reverb was noticable, but not nearly as much as on the X-can. The recessed voices were also better. On the other hand were the highs more strident and the artificiality more prominent.
The Rudistor gave the most balanced performance.
__________________________________________________ ___________
 
Dec 15, 2006 at 10:48 PM Post #2 of 29
What a fascinating tour de force of an impressions post, Kees!
280smile.gif


While I cannot yet say that my experience agrees with yours entirely, I appreciate your methodology and ability to summarize your sonic priorities in such precise detail. You've given me plenty to think about and listen for when I finally get my very first dedicated headphone amps, a Heed Audio CanAmp and a Go-Vibe V5S.

As I explained at the outset of my Ultrasone mega-thread, I have a very limited experience of serious headphone listening, but a very long love-affair with loudspeaker-based Hi-Fi and live performance. So my priorities are derived from those.

For me, the presentation of the Ultrasones is something of a revelation; I find them more loudspeaker-like in terms of ambiance, soundstage and timing than I have ever before heard with headphones.

Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts in such sumptuous detail.

I look forward to comparing notes with you at the Benelux meet this coming February!

Cheers, Dex
 
Dec 15, 2006 at 11:06 PM Post #3 of 29
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dexdexter /img/forum/go_quote.gif
What a fascinating tour de force of an impressions post, Kees!
280smile.gif


While I cannot yet say that my experience agrees with yours entirely, I appreciate your methodology and ability to summarize your sonic priorities in such precise detail. You've given me plenty to think about and listen for when I finally get my very first dedicated headphone amps, a Heed Audio CanAmp and a Go-Vibe V5S.

As I explained at the outset of my Ultrasone mega-thread, I have a very limited experience of serious headphone listening, but a very long love-affair with loudspeaker-based Hi-Fi and live performance. So my priorities are derived from those.

For me, the presentation of the Ultrasones is something of a revelation; I find them more loudspeaker-like in terms of ambiance, soundstage and timing than I have ever before heard with headphones.

Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts in such sumptuous detail.

I look forward to comparing notes with you at the Benelux meet this coming February!

Cheers, Dex



Thanks.
I can assure you there is a BIG difference between Fleetwood Mac's "I'm so afraid" on my speaker system and on the PROlines.
But I can let you hear some of what I tried to describe on the meet.
eggosmile.gif
 
Dec 16, 2006 at 1:38 PM Post #4 of 29
Thanks for the review, I've been interested in the Ultrasones as well. It seems the 750 isn't perfect for me, although it's hard to judge since our musical tastes differ quite a lot.

Did you happen to have heard the 650s too ? if so, is the sound similar to the 750s ?
 
Dec 16, 2006 at 2:14 PM Post #5 of 29
Nice review, Kees. Some of which may explain the difficulties I've had with Ultrasones: Quote:

Originally Posted by Kees /img/forum/go_quote.gif
ONE smaller flaw:
Voices and some instruments (violin, guitar) often sound recessed compared to their accompaniment.



Quote:

Voices: The artificiality is most present here. The PROlines do not suggest the presence of a person.
Voices sound very recessed.


Quote:

Violin: The effect is the same as with voices. I can’t hear the body of the violin.


Quote:

My personal conclusion:
For large symphony orchestras, small Jazz combos, solo instruments (particularly piano) or fusion (and similar music) the PROline 750 are absolutely great.
For rock or vocals: I don’t like them at all.


While I listen to a very wide variety of music, vocals & classical string instruments (violin & cello) are my absolute favorites. Perhaps it's the types of music I use most often that are not a good match for them. Quote:

some of the bass notes get to be loose and without detail.
In this area I cannot discern a kick drum beat from a plucked upright bass: BAD!
The bass presence is rather heavy. This echo-effect causes it to be too heavy sometimes.


Sounds like my "muddiness" impressions could be attributed to this effect.

Well done, friend. Thanks for taking the time to articulate your impressions!
 
Dec 16, 2006 at 3:11 PM Post #6 of 29
Quote:

Originally Posted by Land /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Thanks for the review, I've been interested in the Ultrasones as well. It seems the 750 isn't perfect for me, although it's hard to judge since our musical tastes differ quite a lot.

Did you happen to have heard the 650s too ? if so, is the sound similar to the 750s ?



What is you musical preference then? Maybe I can sample some for you (I have an extremely varied collection) and give some feedback on it.
No I never heard the 650s. I heard they are even more bass heavy than the 750s though....
 
Dec 16, 2006 at 3:57 PM Post #7 of 29
@JPELG:
I can easily see how you can hear "muddiness" in them.

I have to add that this also varies with different amps. That is why I tried them on three different amps, to make shure what I heard were the phones and not the amp.
The reverb/bass effect was by far the worst on the X-can v3. The tube sound gave them a bit warmth in the highs though.
On the Prehead the reverb was noticable, but not nearly as much as on the X-can. The recessed voices were also better. On the other hand were the highs more strident and the artificiality more prominent.
The Rudistor gave the most balanced performance.

I am a strong believer in synergy between amp and phones, with the right amp these phones can be really great or even absolutely amazing.

I have also been wondering about how much the closed design is to blame for the reverb problem.
Would the 2500 not have it?????
If so, I wonder why Ultrasone made the Edition 9 closed.....
 
Dec 16, 2006 at 5:08 PM Post #8 of 29
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kees /img/forum/go_quote.gif
What is you musical preference then? Maybe I can sample some for you (I have an extremely varied collection) and give some feedback on it.
No I never heard the 650s. I heard they are even more bass heavy than the 750s though....



Well I like Trip-hop, rock, metal, electronic, hip-hop etc.

Just to name a few artists/bands I like : Spinvis, Bjork, Portishead, Pixies, Garbage, Yeah yeah yeahs, Anathema, Orbital, MF doom, Beatles.

I'm looking for a good closed can that has quite a different sound signature than my DT 990. I'm also planning to use it while drumming (electronic) so the isolation should be decent.
 
Dec 16, 2006 at 10:28 PM Post #9 of 29
Quote:

Originally Posted by Land /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Well I like Trip-hop, rock, metal, electronic, hip-hop etc.

Just to name a few artists/bands I like : Spinvis, Bjork, Portishead, Pixies, Garbage, Yeah yeah yeahs, Anathema, Orbital, MF doom, Beatles.

I'm looking for a good closed can that has quite a different sound signature than my DT 990. I'm also planning to use it while drumming (electronic) so the isolation should be decent.



I played some trip-hop: Portishead, Lamb, Garbage, Morcheeba and Moby.
Sounds just fabulous. This music sort of thrives on the flaws of the 750s...
eggosmile.gif

Same goes for electronic. Steve Roach or Sigur Ros sound stellar.
Metal: I listend to Dream Theater, Kamelot, Edguy, Katatonia and Age of Nemesis.
This music does not depend on a single bass note or kick drum beat for energy. So there is absolutely no problem with that.
The somewhat strident highs can be annoying (to my ears) sometimes, but it very much depends on the recording how bad that is.
Dream Theatre sounds absolutely great. The bass is breathtaking. Loads of power and impact.

I never heard the DT990 (yet) so I can't comment on the difference between those and the 750s.
As far as I can tell these could be very good for drumming (sound wise). They also sit tightly on your head (they wont fall off when you move) and isolate very well.

Hope this helps a bit.
 
Dec 17, 2006 at 3:14 AM Post #10 of 29
The 750 must be a completelly different animal from the 2500 then, as I mainly hear Rock, and honestly I alsolutelly love them...

Now I'm very curious about the Edtion 9 as well, as a side note, Rudi listens mailny classical, and he personally plays violin, and he received his last week, and he absolutelly love them...his words: "it is a great headphone"...
 
Dec 17, 2006 at 9:33 AM Post #11 of 29
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller /img/forum/go_quote.gif
The 750 must be a completelly different animal from the 2500 then, as I mainly hear Rock, and honestly I alsolutelly love them...

Now I'm very curious about the Edtion 9 as well, as a side note, Rudi listens mailny classical, and he personally plays violin, and he received his last week, and he absolutelly love them...his words: "it is a great headphone"...



As I mentioned in another post: I'm very curious about 2500 now. My guess is they don't have the reverb thing.
Since I think that maybe this could be fixed with a relatively simple blu tack-sort of mod, I imagine that the Edition 9 does not have to suffer from these flaws. Certainly hope so, because I am definitely looking that way.

When rereading my impressions I think it looks much more negative than I intended.
I have been looking for the flaws and focusssing on them.
All headphones have some flaws, even the very best, and I certainly consider these to be among the very best I heard.
I want to listen to them a lot more before I rank them among my other phones, but as things look now they just could end on top.
 
Dec 17, 2006 at 11:15 AM Post #13 of 29
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kees /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I played some trip-hop: Portishead, Lamb, Garbage, Morcheeba and Moby.
Sounds just fabulous. This music sort of thrives on the flaws of the 750s...
eggosmile.gif

Same goes for electronic. Steve Roach or Sigur Ros sound stellar.
Metal: I listend to Dream Theater, Kamelot, Edguy, Katatonia and Age of Nemesis.
This music does not depend on a single bass note or kick drum beat for energy. So there is absolutely no problem with that.
The somewhat strident highs can be annoying (to my ears) sometimes, but it very much depends on the recording how bad that is.
Dream Theatre sounds absolutely great. The bass is breathtaking. Loads of power and impact.

I never heard the DT990 (yet) so I can't comment on the difference between those and the 750s.
As far as I can tell these could be very good for drumming (sound wise). They also sit tightly on your head (they wont fall off when you move) and isolate very well.

Hope this helps a bit.



Thanks a lot, it helped quite a bit
smily_headphones1.gif


you've got a nice and varied collection of music there
biggrin.gif


People usually say the highs of the 990's can be annoying, but it doesn't bother me. So I should be fine with the 750's highs. You've got me very interested in these headphones.

I guess I'll be keeping an eye on the FS forum now, since the retail price is a bit high.
 

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