[JayG]

I would guess that Szell just didn't have as much of an affinity with the other symphonies and didn't want to record something he felt wasn't up to his standards. More than almost anyone else I can think of, he very very rarely put out a recording that was less than first rate, and I can only assume it was because he only recorded what he felt strongly about. I wish more conductors active today would follow his example...

Did Szell frequently perform other Mahler symphonies live? Was anyone here lucky enough to hear such a concert who could offer an opinion of how they compared to his 4 and 6? Maybe I'm totally wrong and we've been robbed of a great complete cycle.

 

[DavidMahler]

I have to say..........I feel Chailly ranks very highly in a list of the most consistently good Mahler conductors. His cycle is pretty recent....I really wish he'd release a Das Lied von der Erde.

 

[JayG]

I would agree. His cycle and Gielen's are to me the most successful complete series made in the last 20 years. I think Chailly has a few symphonies in his cycle (3, 5, 9) that are better than Gielen's best (1, 7), but I think Gielen's might be a tad more consistent overall.

 

[DavidMahler]

CHailly's 3rd is THE ultimate

I agree

 

[mbhaub]

I think the reason is that Szell was personally uncomfortable with music that was too extrovertly emotional. He did very little Tchaikovsky or Rachmaninoff. He was a very reserved, logical kind of guy. His temperment was ideal for the rigors of Brahms, Beethoven, Mozart. It's no coincidence that the two Mahler's he did, 4 & 6, are Mahler's most "classical" symphonies.

You're right: I do prefer that conductors stick to the score. Don't change the orchestration, no cuts(!), no uncalled for personal touches like accents, sforzandos, etc that aren't the composer's wishes. But outside that, there's a wide latitude of variety. Then there's the aspect behind the notes. Some conductors just have a magical way with some music. It's eerie actually, and unexplainable. But Bernstein sure had it. He became the music and conveyed something elemental in it. Boulez gets all the precision imaginable, but rarely connects with the music at the same level. My problem with a lot of Mahler conducting, more than any other composer, is that Mahler's scores are loaded with detailed specific directions for the conductor. Mahler was a professional, had many opportunities to hear and correct his music (well, except for 9, 10 & Das Lied) and knew what he wanted. When conductors ignore those very specific directions is when I say start having problems.

JayG-- you're absolutely right about the lack of contemporary composers and conductors, and no, I didn't forget that modern conductors couldn't possibly know the masters. But that's the point I guess: when traditions and styles are so precariously passed on from generation to the next, eventually things break down, the message gets distorted or lost. I don't blame anyone (maybe Hitler), but it's a symptom of the times. And as Hans Kellar noted many years ago, our world now is too noisy for another Beethoven or Brahms to develop. Great music requires silence for the inner eat to develop, and all the electronic noise, street noise, etc will prevent this. Is it any wonder that Sibelius, Mahler, Prokofieff and others sought out quiet solitude to write? But then there's Shostakovich who could write anywhere, anytime. Off topic, I know. Interesting thread, as always.

 

[JayG]

Hmm. Well, I guess I sort of half agree with you again. You make some very good points. However, I would disagree that Szell avoided pieces that were outwardly emotional. While Brahms's symphonies and Mahler's 6th are certainly more classical in form than much of the work of their contemporaries (and in Mahler's case his own other symphonies), I don't think you could say they are not outwardly emotional in content. Mahler's 6th is, in my opinion, more emotionally charged than any of Mahler's works other than perhaps the 9th. Also, I have a recording of Szell/Cleveland in Tchaik 4 that is fabulous.

I don't disagree that Szell seemed to avoid the more hysterically emotional compositions for the most part, but it doesn't seem to be categorical, so I wonder if it was a different aspect of those works/composers that turned him off.

As to the topic of new composers, I absolutely agree that we will never have another Beethoven or Brahms. But why would we want any? Nobody will do Beethoven better than Beethoven already has, and nobody will do Brahms better than Brahms already has. I think the problem is that we are a culture of comparisons -- "I like Golijov, but he's no Beethoven," or "Steve Reich is interesting, but he doesn't belong in the same category as Mozart." Well, of course not. But music is simply different now, not necessarily worse. When Europe was obsessed with Wagner, they didn't say "Well, he's all well and good but we'd much rather just stick with Bach and Mozart, thank you very much." And one wonders how many of our treasured compositional masters would have become what they did if their musical culture was so resistant to new music. If you look at the approximate statistics that have been compiled from old concert lineups, the percentage of concert time devoted to newly composed music is mind-boggling from our perspective. It was just a totally different mindset. We can't expect to be flooded with masterpieces if composers know that their music will likely never be played.

And just to be clear, in no way am I insinuating that mb or anyone else here thinks that way, I'm just saying it seems to be the zeitgeist.

 

[meaned]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbhaub /img/forum/go_quote.gif For the 7th, although that's the first version many of us of a certain vintage ever heard, Bernstein's first traversal, fine as it is, has been outclassed. If you follow with a score, you'll find it is far from being the best performed as far orchestral execution goes. That title belongs to either Abbado/Chicago or Haitink on his 2nd version. Virtually every recording has orchestral gaffs galore.

Hey folks there is a wonderful Abbado M7 with the Gustav Mahler Jugendorchester at the 1999 Edinburgh Festival, still up on dimeadozen. It has all the wonderful attention to pulse and incisive details that marks the Abbado M7's, but this performance is made that much more vibrant by the apparent enthusiasm of the young players. That is what I always listen for, and love about in the Barshai 5th.
The orchestra on the 1999 live M7 I mention sounds hungry, and not at all willing to settle into a moment of "we've been here before" complacency that can mar, for the barest of stretches, so many wonderful accounts by professional orchestras (an intrinsic pitfall of playing often and at such a high level of competency). My favorite Mahler sym. is the 7th, and this one has taken the lion's share of plays in my home since it was made available. i hope you can enjoy it too, if not I have uploaded it (lossily) to my own site write me and i will give you a link. Also (what follows is polite but unnecessary to most readers)
let me know if you object and I will take it off. It is a live broadcast recording of a performance that is not commercially available, nor am I aware of plans to make it be so.

 

[Masonjar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkAngel /img/forum/go_quote.gif Just an observation that very few Mahler recordings I have heard made in last 20 years that can make my top 5 list like Barenboim/Warner 7,9 and maybe a couple from the Geilen set A sad commentary for current generation of Mahler conductors...........

Yes, I note that my favorite Mahler recordings are getting older and older... *crack* oh sorry my back just went out.. DAMN KIDS stop skateboarding on my driveway!

oh sorry, where was I?

 

[Bunnyears]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidMahler /img/forum/go_quote.gif CHailly's 3rd is THE ultimate I agree

Boulez's isn't negligable either!

Btw, I just was refreshing my memories with Barshai's 10th which is also very special because he didn't use Cooke's completion. Barshai actually wrote the completion himself and it's great.

The Mahler 5th with it is also in my list of top M5s.

 

[Bunnyears]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkAngel /img/forum/go_quote.gif Just an observation that very few Mahler recordings I have heard made in last 20 years that can make my top 5 list like Barenboim/Warner 7,9 and maybe a couple from the Geilen set A sad commentary for current generation of Mahler conductors...........

Give it time! Last night I heard Alan Gilbert conducting the NYPO in an all Bernstein concert at Carnegie Hall. The band has not sounded so good in years! I'll bet this is one old Mahler Band that will be recording the symphonies once again, and in the near future. Kudos to the Board of Directors for their inspired choice of conductor.

 

[Mink]

Let's resurrect this thread.
Lately I have been listening a lot of Mahler. Many great recordings, but I have found out that I am pretty conservative and stick to my favorites I have for years
So here it goes, my list of favorites, I will list a couple of recordings per symphony, because an ultimate favorite is too hard for me. But overall I seem to favor Haitink and the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra in a lot of symphonies and this not because I am Dutch

Mahler 1
Haitink / Koninklijk Concertgebouworkest (Philips, 1962). Love the sound of the recording. Very direct and textured. And nothing is underplayed, a critique Haitink gets a lot.
Kubelik / Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks (Deutsche Grammophon, 1968). Just like his recording of the 4th, very natural.
Abbado / Chicago Symphony Orchestra (Deutsche Grammophon, 1982)

Mahler 2
Haitink / Koninklijk Concertgebouworkest (Philips, 1968)
Klemperer / Philharmonia Orchestra (EMI, 1963)
Boulez / Staatskapelle Berlin (Euroarts, 2007 DVD)

Mahler 3
Haitink / Koninklijk Concertgebouworkest (Philips, 1966) The 1st movement is very dark and moody. Love it.
Bernstein / New York Philharmonic (Sony,1962) The best performance of the 2nd and 3rd movements. Very playful, light and imaginative.
Chailly / Koninklijk Concertgebouworkest (Decca, 2003)

Mahler 4
Kubelik / Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks (Deutsche Grammophon, 1967). The best paced, so natural sounding.
Szell / The Cleveland Orchestra (CBS, 1965). The sound of the recording makes this the one I play the most often. And the 2nd movement is absolutely wonderful.
Haitink / Berliner Philharmoniker (Philips, 1992). The best recorded Himmlischen Freuden. McNair is wonderful. The other movements are better paced than his previous recordings with the KCO. And yes true, he underplays some of the more biting wind instruments parts.

Mahler 5
Boulez / Wiener Philharmoniker (Deutsche Grammophon, 1997). Control in the emotional chaos. Compact, informative and still warm and sonorous. How does Boulez do this?
Chailly / Koninklijk Concertgebouworkest (Decca, 1998)
Haitink / Koninklijk Concertgebouworkest Live (Philips,1980 Kerstmatinees box)

Mahler 6
Boulez / Wiener Philharmoniker (Deutsche Grammophon, 1994). Control in the emotional chaos. Compact, informative and still warm and sonorous. How does Boulez do this?
Haitink / Berliner Philharmoniker (Philips, 1990)

Mahler 7
Bernstein / New York Philharmonic (Sony, 1965)
Chailly / Koninklijk Concertgebouworkest (Decca, 1995)
Abbado / Chicago Symphony Orchestra (Deutsche Grammophon, 1984)
Boulez / The Cleveland Orchestra (Deutsche Grammophon, 1996

Mahler 8
None. I hate this symphony

Mahler 9
Haitink / Koninklijk Concertgebouworkest (Philips, 1969)
Chailly / Koninklijk Concertgebouworkest (Decca, 2004)
Boulez / Chicago Symphony Orchestra (Deutsche Grammophon, 1998)

 

[Mink]

I just listened to Francois-Xavier Roth's Mahler 3. Not a bad recording, good sound with a nice warmth and well played, but it lacks something. Boulez is often criticized for being cold and detached, well this Xavier Roth recording is probably the 1st Mahler recording I have heard where I truly find this to be the case.
All the notes are played, but it sounds, especially in the 2nd and 3rd movements like they are copy pasted, as if the instruments and instrument groups never played together in the same room, but are put/mixed together in the studio. They sound isolated from each other. There is also this straightforwardness in playing that in the best cases (name Haitink and Kubelik) result in a wonderful natural vibe. In this case it sounds too deliberate, I cannot put my finger on it, but it just sounds dull. All this gets emphasized by the weird dynamics, when the orchestra plays softer it sounds like it was edited afterwards.