My Car is a Lemon
Apr 18, 2009 at 6:45 PM Post #46 of 83
Quote:

Originally Posted by linuxworks /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I was about to ask that!

very good point.

many people don't realize that contracts are NOT cast on stone and if you have some negotiating power, you can add/delete items (initial them, usually, as you cross them out in ink, plus have the other party initial them too).

I remember an employment agreement that some guy wanted me to sign. he wanted to limit my rights and create barriers if I was to leave that job. I crossed out most of his annoying clauses and he didn't fight me on it! that one incident taught me a lot about contracts.

otoh, if the corp is big enough they will simply refuse to allow modifications of the text. its worth a try but you won't always succeed in 'editing' boilerplate contracts. still, DO TRY, its worth that at least.


You can also write "I have not read a word of this contract" above your signature. Depending on the jurisdiction, that might negate the whole thing.

You might be surprised at how often you can get away with contract modifications and how to negotiate with them. If a salesman thinks you're committed to buying a car, has invested five or six hours in the sale, and then you balk at the arbitration provision, they might get desperate for the sale. You can always say that you were over at XYZ dealership which didn't have the arbitration clause, but the car was more money there. But now you're thinking about going back because you don't want to sign it. Pulling back at the last second is something that drives salesmen nuts, especially if they've invested a lot of time in the transaction.
 
Apr 18, 2009 at 7:03 PM Post #47 of 83
Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Nope. Courts rarely have the power to award attorney's fees. However, arbitration clauses usually throw a prevailing party clause in. That means that whoever loses the arbitration has to pay costs for both sides.

Which might sound like a good thing except for the fact that arbitration clauses usually spell out the arbitration agency that will hear the case. Those contracts are usually drafted by the car company, right? You never have your own attorney draft the contract for buying a car, do you?

Well, the arbitration companies get fat and jolly off the repeated business from the arbitration clauses that keep referring and guaranteeing business with them.

Do you see where this is going?

Something like 98% of arbitrations go in favor of the party that drafted the contract. Of course there's no bias there. Never!

If you lose, you usually get stuck with a five or six figure bill for attorney's fees and, more often than not, the arbitration is difficult, if not impossible, to appeal. Oh yeah, the arbitrator will usually want a retainer from both sides that's often $5,000 or more before thoroughly raping you.

***** arbitration. The deck is completely stacked against you and there's no way out once you sign an arbitration agreement.

You always want to go to court, if possible. The Court won't screw you with fees and you have a right to appeal decisions. Judges are independent, too, and don't need repeat business from a car dealership to put food on their table and buy a fractional share of a Gulfstream.

Don't ever agree to arbitration, if you can help it. I usually cross out arbitration provisions in contracts. Yes, you can do that.

For the person who asked about reliable cars, go with Honda or Toyota. I bought a new Toyota two years ago, have 35k miles and haven't done anything beyond routine maintenance and adding gas. My parents once bought an Audi. The only thing reliable about it was how often it had to go to the shop - usually every three weeks. We'd be assured by a tech in a white lab coat that "these are the best cars in the world," that they just needed another $700, and that this problem usually never happens with these cars with a vague implication that my family was at fault.

Germans do some things very well. Building cars is not one of them.


I have already been through this Erik, maybe reading the documentation given to him when he bought the car would be a good idea. First time I went they bought the car back and yes they paid for the arbitrator and no I was not bound by his decision. Second time I had to get a lawyer involved because I had not sent that letter that I keep telling everyone about. See what I mean?

BTW: Both arbitrations were over a Toyota. Toyota would rather cut their nose off to spite their face than do the right thing for the customer. I speak from experience., not assumption.
 
Apr 18, 2009 at 8:06 PM Post #48 of 83
Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif
If a salesman thinks you're committed to buying a car, has invested five or six hours in the sale, and then you balk at the arbitration provision, they might get desperate for the sale.


very true! wear them down. they certainly do that to customers (all car salesmen do that).

yes, I once spent a few hours at a dealership and when they didn't talk my language, I got up and walked out. in fact, my GF and I were in the car halfway down the driveway on our way out when she said 'hey, there's a guy running after you!'. they wanted to play ball - and the deal went better after I pulled that 'stunt'. in fact I really was on my way out of their driveway, it wasn't a bluff at all.

Quote:

You can always say that you were over at XYZ dealership which didn't have the arbitration clause, but the car was more money there. But now you're thinking about going back because you don't want to sign it. Pulling back at the last second is something that drives salesmen nuts, especially if they've invested a lot of time in the transaction.


I like the way you think. are you for hire, as needed?
wink.gif
wink.gif
 
Apr 19, 2009 at 4:40 AM Post #52 of 83
We have an A8L and the local audi dealers are CRAP.

I don't know if you've done this already, but if you haven't I'm shocked you've let it get this far - call Audi corporate and file a complaint with all of the specifics. Audi corporate will make it right. When our MMI died and the dealer didn't want to fix it (they blamed us), one call to corporate got a complete 180 degree reversal with them apologizing profusely. Audi corporate is seriously cracking down on their dealers as the poor service is causing them to lose sales to BMW and Mercedes. In fact, if a certain number of salesman score anything other than a "very satisfied" from the customer, they will be severely penalized by Audi and the whole dealership will be shafted in terms of supply, funding, etc.

Trust me on this. If you haven't already, call corporate. They have a separate phone number for A8L owners, so I don't know if that's what made the difference, but I would think that you should be able to talk to someone in corporate that can fix things.
 
Apr 19, 2009 at 4:11 PM Post #53 of 83
^^^^ The first line of what he said.

Be it Japanese, American, German, Korean, British or et. al, all car companies have the same issues when it comes to manufacturing new cars. The majority of cars are good while some cars come out poor - it is the variability of manufacturing.

The difference is not really the car, the only thing you will change is the mathematical ratio of good vs. poor when you change makes (which should not be discounted, mind you, I am simly stating that ALL car makes have problems - ALL). It is common for fans of Japanese car models to proclaim that "Japanese cars are reliable" but all you have to do is search the internet for "Honda sucks", "Toyota sucks", "Nissan sucks", "Honda problems"...etc...to find the horror stories involved with failed Japanese automobiles.

The only difference between the companies proclaimed as "good" versus the ones proclaimed as "crap" is the after-sale customer service.

I currently own a 2002 VW, purchased brand new, now with 225,000 miles. Best, finest, most reliable car I have ever owned. It's first mechanical repair in almost 3 years - 140,000 miles - just occurred late last year, and it was a common electrical problem for this model. So some people will proclaim German cars as "crap" while others have had fantastic results with their German cars - you've got to take all that with a grain of salt.

So the difference boils down to customer service...and, in this case, Computerpro3 has it pretty much on the head. All in all, the problem with German cars isn't necessarily the cars themselves but the dealers; all too many German car dealers are CRAP. A MAJOR cause of this is American VW/Audi Group - they [were] quite penny-pinching and will intentionally give the consumer a difficult time with claims and satisfaction if it means that the Group will save just a few $$$$. They will shuffle you around, procrastinate, look for ways out, claim no issue...anything so as to avoid taking money out of their system. As noted by Computerpro3, it seems VW/Audi is [now] changing their tune but a decent number of customers feel that they have already been slighted by the dealership system and are now vehemently opposed to buying VW/Audi again, leaving a shrinking customer base. I like my VW...I am not impressed (somewhat hate) the dealer I bought it from. Found a good dealer finally, 50 miles away, so when I need dealer level service I try to get the car down there.

Anyway, GET YOURSELF ANOTHER ATTORNEY. Your case, for SURE, falls under the Lemon Law act:
Quote:

California Lemon Law
California Lemon Laws and the federal Lemon Law (the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act) provide for compensation to California consumers of defective automobiles and trucks and other vehicles and products including motorcycles, RV’s, boats, computers and other consumer appliances and products. To qualify under the California Lemon Law or the federal Lemon Law, you must generally have a product that suffered multiple repair attempts under the manufacturer’s factory warranty. Lemon Law compensation can include a refund, replacement or cash compensation. If you think you qualify for a Lemon Law, click here for a free California Lemon Law case review or for an immediate evaluation, simply fax your repair records to 866-773-6152. An experienced Lemon Law attorney will personally review your inquiry and records and quickly contact you for a free consultation.

For other useful California Lemon Law information, click here to visit the California section of our State Lemon Laws Statutes and Guide pages. Or just keep reading below for the entire California Lemon Law, or click here to read the federal lemon law.

California Lemon Law
Civil Code Section 1793.22 - 1793.26
Sale Warranties
Tanner Consumer Protection Act
Used Car Disclosures


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note:
As of January 1, 2001, under California Lemon Law, a vehicle is considered a Lemon if it fails two attempts at repairing life-threatening defects.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

California Lemon Law 1793.22.
(a) This section shall be known and may be cited as the Tanner Consumer Protection Act.

(b) It shall be presumed that a reasonable number of attempts have been made to conform a new motor vehicle to the applicable express warranties if, within 18 months from delivery to the buyer or 18,000 miles on the odometer of the vehicle, whichever occurs first, either

(1) the same nonconformity has been subject to repair four or more times by the manufacturer or its agents and the buyer has at least once directly notified the manufacturer of the need for the repair of the nonconformity or

(2) the vehicle is out of service by reason of repair of nonconformities by the manufacturer or its agents for a cumulative total of more than 30 calendar days since delivery of the vehicle to the buyer. The 30-day limit shall be extended only if repairs cannot be performed due to conditions beyond the control of the manufacturer or its agents. The buyer shall be required to directly notify the manufacturer pursuant to paragraph (1) only if the manufacturer has clearly and conspicuously disclosed to the buyer, with the warranty or the owner's manual, the provisions of this section and that of subdivision (d) of Section 1793.2, including the requirement that the buyer must notify the manufacturer directly pursuant to paragraph (1). This presumption shall be a reputable presumption affecting the burden of proof, and it may be asserted by the buyer in any civil action, including an action in small claims court, or other formal or informal proceeding.


http://www.carlemon.com/lemon/CA_law.html

as you say the car has been in service for a cumulative total of 32 days (over the limit), the car has 9K miles (under the cutoff limit). Send the letters to Audi as both required by the aforemention law as well as recommended by those here, REGISTERED, along with copies to the state AG, DMV, etc.
 
Apr 20, 2009 at 7:57 AM Post #54 of 83
Quote:

Originally Posted by John2e /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Do you want to buy it from me
smily_headphones1.gif
It is 180 days old and has been in the shop for 35 days.


If I wasn't a poor college student, I sure would for a good deal :p I much prefer buying a vehicle with a problem and fixing it myself to save some money. Good luck though.
 
Apr 20, 2009 at 11:57 AM Post #55 of 83
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenja /img/forum/go_quote.gif
If I wasn't a poor college student, I sure would for a good deal :p I much prefer buying a vehicle with a problem and fixing it myself to save some money. Good luck though.


You ever think there is a problem that cant be fixed?
 
Apr 20, 2009 at 9:36 PM Post #60 of 83
Quote:

Originally Posted by Snake /img/forum/go_quote.gif
^^^^ .

Anyway, GET YOURSELF ANOTHER ATTORNEY. Your case, for SURE, falls under the Lemon Law act:


California Lemon Law Statutes

.




Thanks Snake. He informed me this would happen. He is proceeding

"1st they will offer you a small cash settlemet"
" soon they will admit there is a problem"
"then they will try to limit the payoff by charging for excess wear and tear"

At that point I will rent a lemon coustom and stand outside the show room or cover the car with hundreds of lemon magnets and leave it parked outside the dealer.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Back
Top