[Masolino]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMHBAT OK - it's ordered!

Do you have other Cantus Colln recordings in similar styles
(Schein, Rosenmuller etc.)? In any case, please share your
thoughts once you receive and listen to the Schutz!

 

[Masolino]

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Originally Posted by zumaro I would go for the Junghanel in Buxtehude just to try it out! I have no good reason for liking the Gardiner except the performance is relatively sensitive, but even then its not as good as Christopher's. Hadn't heard Junghanel in the Psalmen Davids, so I was interested to hear your opinion. I really do like Bernius in Schutz - he might be relatively large scale using a choir (probably what Schutz intended in this case), but he really conveys the spirit of this magnificent music, with top class singing and playing. I suppose I am stating the obvious but anyone wanting to go on from the Vespers should check out Schutz, who is Monteverdi's most talented and enjoyable contemporary.

I just found a Fanfare review written by JF Weber:
http://www.fanfaremag.com/archive/ar...ymphoniae.html

He seems to be saying that if one has the Bernius he/she needs not bother with the Cantus Colln recording. Most usefully he offers an overview of all available Schutz recordings and does his comparsions between them.

 

[TMHBAT]

Besides the Selva Morale, I have their Bach Actus Tragicus and Mass in B Minor, both of which I love. I've also just ordered their Rovetta: Vespro Solenne.

 

[Masolino]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMHBAT Besides the Selva Morale, I have their Bach Actus Tragicus and Mass in B Minor, both of which I love. I've also just ordered their Rovetta: Vespro Solenne.

Both Bach recordings have now been released on SACD.. I am inclined to think that at least the Mass would sound even better on high-resolution, multi-channel stereo, but would the improvement be worth buying the same recording once more? Will the Monteverdi show up again in SACD format in the future? Wonder how Harmonia mundi chooses candidate SACD titles from its rather large catelogue.

 

[zumaro]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masolino I just found a Fanfare review written by JF Weber: http://www.fanfaremag.com/archive/ar...ymphoniae.html He seems to be saying that if one has the Bernius he/she needs not bother with the Cantus Colln recording.

Well that should save me a few dollars then! The earlier Bernius recording strikes me as being very good, with excellent singing and playing making the most of this very expressive music, and has long been one of my favourite albums. The collection, as the review suggests, is Schutz at his considerable best, and undoubtedly has a late Bach-like "best of" summing up function to it. I prefer these more intimate and colorful pieces to the polychoral Psalmen Davids anyway, regardless of performance.

I have various other Cantus Colln CDs, including both their Rosenmuller disks and their Biber/Muffat double act. The Rosenmuller disks are particularly interesting, and the music is much more than a historical curiosity. If it hadn't been for his liking of choirboys and the subsequent dire effect on his Leipzig career, Rosenmuller would have been a natural link between Schutz and Bach, and his music is quite up to the task. If you want Venetian splendour and color, combined with German discipline, Rosenmuller is very persuasive indeed.

Both the Vespers collection and the Weinachtshistorie albums show Junghanel's usual concerns for clarity and transparency of texture, even in the relatively large scale choral sections, and there is some very flexible solo singing as well. Both are really worth obtaining - and to relate this back to the topic of the thread - will be enjoyed if you like the Monteverdi Vespers.

 

[accwai]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masolino I just found a Fanfare review written by JF Weber: http://www.fanfaremag.com/archive/ar...ymphoniae.html He seems to be saying that if one has the Bernius he/she needs not bother with the Cantus Colln recording. Most usefully he offers an overview of all available Schutz recordings and does his comparsions between them.

Hmm, nothing specific on Musicalische Exequien... I started getting interested in Schütz after hearing excerpts from Musicalische Exequien at a concert late last year. Any suggestion on a good CD version?

As for other Cantus Cölln stuff, with the modest collection I have, mainly J.S.Bach, I find they generally go for great clarity and take things quite fast. Works great sometimes, e.g. Verse I from BWV 4 on the Actus Tragicus CD has this great sense of urgency which the Suzuki version is complete missing. But if you compare Actus Tragicus itself on the same disk against the Suzuki version, the latter is just ethereal, e.g. 2d "Es ist der alte Bund". The Cantus Cölln version is too clear cut to my ears. The Suzuki version is my current reference for BWV 106.

As for Mass in B Minor, I find the one voice per part approach doesn't provide enough force for the three great outbursts in Cum Sancto Spiritu, Et resurrexit and Et expecto. I like the rest though.

Comments?

Andy

P.S. I'm currently listening to Cantus Cölln's Symphoniae Sacrae III and Altbachisches Archiv. Picked them up from a store on impulse about two weeks ago. Like them in general but I'm new to these pre-Bach stuff, so I have nothing to compare them against.

 

[Masolino]

Quote:

Originally Posted by accwai Hmm, nothing specific on Musicalische Exequien... I started getting interested in Schütz after hearing excerpts from Musicalische Exequien at a concert late last year. Any suggestion on a good CD version?

I like most versions I have heard - Herreweghe, Gardiner, Helbich (Naxos), Mauersberger (Edel/Berlin Classics). The last has a very natural and good recorded sound despite its age (recorded in th 1970s) and uses an all-male choir (Dresdener Kreuzchor). Peter Schreier sings as Tenor I. I think Musikalische Exequien is one of those indestructable works where it is hard to have a really bad performance.

Quote:

As for other Cantus Cölln stuff, with the modest collection I have, mainly J.S.Bach, I find they generally go for great clarity and take things quite fast. Works great sometimes, e.g. Verse I from BWV 4 on the Actus Tragicus CD has this great sense of urgency which the Suzuki version is complete missing. But if you compare Actus Tragicus itself on the same disk against the Suzuki version, the latter is just ethereal, e.g. 2d "Es ist der alte Bund". The Cantus Cölln version is too clear cut to my ears. The Suzuki version is my current reference for BWV 106.

Hmm yes. One can certainly have favorite performances of any piece, but in case of vocal music of this period in particular, I do believe that the matters of interpreting tempi, rhythms and accentuation should be equally or less determined by a pursuit of sensualisms in music than by a natural or effective delivery of the sung text. In the case of German repertories, Konrad Junghanel and his group have the advantages of being mostly native speakers and having an intuitive understanding of how speaking words balances with singing in that language. Ditto Alessandrini and Italian Concerto in Monteverdi, etc (madrigals, or latin sacred music written by Italian-speaking composers). Ditto William Christie and Marc Minkowski in Lully and Rameau. Note that this may be truer in certain periods, like the Baroque, than in others, such as our own time, when a preference for intrinsic beauties in music (that is, music not playing as a "handmaid" to words) becomes prevalent. I suspect that Junghanel knows how to make this music sound (to us) musical and ethereal but nevertheless opts to emphasize its declamatory and rhetorical qualities instead. My 2 cents.

Quote:

As for Mass in B Minor, I find the one voice per part approach doesn't provide enough force for the three great outbursts in Cum Sancto Spiritu, Et resurrexit and Et expecto. I like the rest though.

In fact I believe Junghanel (and Parrott) employs an additional voice (repienist) in each part for those pieces. One more voice and they will have a problem in fielding the double choruses in Sanctus, so the one concertist plus one repienist configuration is probably the farthest they can go while still observing the logic in the one-voice-per-part theory.

 

[accwai]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masolino I like most versions I have heard - [...] I think Musikalische Exequien is one of those indestructable works where it is hard to have a really bad performance.

Thanks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masolino Hmm yes. One can certainly have favorite performances of any piece, but in case of vocal music of this period in particular, I do believe that the matters of interpreting tempi, rhythms and accentuation should be equally or less determined by a pursuit of sensualisms in music than by a natural or effective delivery of the sung text. [...] I suspect that Junghanel knows how to make this music sound (to us) musical and ethereal but nevertheless opts to emphasize its declamatory and rhetorical qualities instead. My 2 cents.

Well I think the issue is less a black and white contrast between effective delivery of the text and musical sensualism, but how a particular performance balances the two into a coherent whole. Now I do not speak German so I don't know exact how effective the Suzuki delivery is. But according to a number of European posters on the bach-cantata.com mailing list, BCJ's pronouciation and idiom are quite accurate in general. And to my ears, their Actus Tragicus certainly does not lack in declamatory and rhetorical qualities. But is it right to crank them up even more in the name of authenticity? I'm not sure.

In any case, I think rhetorical and ethereal qualities are not mutually exclusive. They can certainly be expressed at the same time. Yoshikazu Mera does this quite well in general but one particularly good example off the top of my head would be his recitative "O selger Tag!" in the Christmas cantata BWV 63.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masolino In fact I believe Junghanel (and Parrott) employs an additional voice (repienist) in each part for those pieces. One more voice and they will have a problem in fielding the double choruses in Sanctus, so the one concertist plus one repienist configuration is probably the farthest they can go while still observing the logic in the one-voice-per-part theory.

You mean the double chorus in the two Osanna sections right?

In any case, I listened to the Mass again last night. I haven't done so for quite a while now. Back in the old days, I was quite fixated on the more explosive sections, but last night I actually find the transition from section to section quite natural. Taste changes over time I guess. So disregard what I initially said about the lack of force.

Andy

 

[Masolino]

Quote:

Originally Posted by accwai Thanks! Well I think the issue is less a black and white contrast between effective delivery of the text and musical sensualism, but how a particular performance balances the two. Now I do not speak German so I don't know exact how effective the Suzuki delivery is. But according to a number of European posters on the bach-cantata.com mailing list, BCJ's pronouciation and idiom are quite accurate in general. And to my ears, their Actus Tragicus certainly does not lack in declamatory and rhetorical qualities. But is it right to crank them up even more in the name of authenticity? I'm not sure. In any case, I think rhetorical and ethereal qualities are not mutually exclusive. They can certainly be expressed at the same time. Yoshikazu Mera does this quite well in general but one particularly good example off the top of my head would be his recitative "O selger Tag!" in the Christmas cantata BWV 63.

It's all about perception. Before Alessandrini came on scene everybody listened to Consort of Musicke recordings of Monteverdi madrigals and thought they were great, but now that they can make comparisons they hear the difference. (Or do they?

) And where Alessandrini et al. have been insightful, it cannot even be learned quickly because it stems from lifelong exposures to the language and its presentation in music. (Alessandrini studied literature and Junghanel started as a lutenist accompanying singers in early German songs. ) In any case I think it's fair to say that Junghanel has a different set of ideas from yours regarding what it means to be declamatory in German baroque works, and whether Bach's music should sound "ethereal" at all.

 

[Bunnyears]

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Originally Posted by Masolino Well I went out earlier today to pick up the only copy in store of Schutz Symphoniae sacrae III by Junghanel and a Scarlatti disc for Bunnyears. I had other choices to spend my music money on (we all do, don't we? ) but decided to try this out, in part to restore my confidence in these performers performing Schutz's music. I have their Psalmen Davids and am not too impressed with it. I still can't quite figure out my disappointment with this older recording - perhaps it's the performances being too straightjacketed or the music not being expressive enough (Schutz's music can be challengingly inward though). But the new Symphoniae Sacrae III has been delightful so far once beyond the first track: more florid and varied writing for voices and instrumental choirs shows up in the following numbers, as if the aged composer had finally recognized that the Thirty-Year War was over and was able to embrace a more celebratory mood. Or it could just be Junghanel and his singers have become more relaxed this time round to give a freer rein of their artistry. Either way, the listening has been an involving experience and continues to be so (I am only half way through the set). I think I will recommend this purchase to others interested in the repertory. ps. I cannot but think that a SACD version of this recording will eventually show up. This is stuff that multi-channel formats were invented for.

This recording was just reviewed today at Classicstoday by John Greene. It received the 10/10 -- but no word about an SACD/hybrid release.

Meanwhile, while cataloguing my cds (a long and nasty process) I came across something I had actually forgotten I had (no surprise with almost 900 cds catalogued and almost as many to go) -- Schütz's Kleine geistliche Konzerte (Small Sacred Concerts) in a pretty little book format. I turned it over for the credits and there were the names "Sebastian Hennig; René Jacobs, William Christie, Christophe Coin, Konrad Junghanel" and some others. And I actually had the recording in my cart at amazon!!! I guess cataloguing those cds is a good thing.

Now I'll be able to compare René Jacobs to Andreas Scholl (whose voice is rapidly becoming an obsession for me). They have Arias for Senesino at yourmusic and if anyone is hesitating to buy it, don't -- unless there is an SACD/hybrid also available elsewhere.


I was also able to pick up the René Jacobs Vespro at Overstock.com. Hopefully it won't take a month to arrive like my last order. The shipping charges are negligible there and the shipping times are usually prompt, but on occasion the wait can be excessive. I suppose they are taking lessons from Caiman.

 

[Masolino]

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Originally Posted by Bunnyears I was also able to pick up the Ren? Jacobs Vespro at Overstock.com. Hopefully it won't take a month to arrive like my last order. The shipping charges are negligible there and the shipping times are usually prompt, but on occasion the wait can be excessive. I suppose they are taking lessons from Caiman.

The Jacobs version of Monteverdi Vespers is among the best of its kind, namely the "full chorus with soloists" approach, with chants inserted in between all numbers and plenty of instrumental doublings added (typical of Jacobs in this repertoire). The chants, however, are indexed with the psalms and so cannot be skipped by programming or otherwise. I think this is preferrable to the Gardiner II performed with similar forces.

 

[PSmith08]

Bought the new-ish reissue of Jacobs on HM. To be honest, I am not sure which I prefer at this point. They are both solidly in the dramatic cantata mold, so I suppose it comes down to who I prefer more in style and performance. On that front, then, I think Jacobs has the essence of the drama down about right. His performance just seems right.

 

[zumaro]

A miraculous reappearance of the Virgin thread!
The Paul McCreesh version of the Monteverdi Vespers has just been released, and my initial impressions are very favorable. As might be expected it is played one voice to a part, and stripped back in orchestration to purely what Monteverdi wrote. While McCreesh acknowledges our lack of certainty as to why this work was written, he plays it as Mantuan chamber music rather than Venetian grand spectacle, and the result is most impressive. Already I can see I would have to rate it up with the best performances of this work by Junghanel and Parrott.

 

[lwd]

I just bought the McCreesh version too, having been blown away by his St Matthew's Passion. But personally I find the 'stripped down' version a little disappointing and uninvolving. Also the recording quality isn't as good as the earlier Bach I mentioned, which is one of my favourite discs. Perhaps I just had too high expectations.

 

[drarthurwells]

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Originally Posted by PSmith08 Bought the new-ish reissue of Jacobs on HM. To be honest, I am not sure which I prefer at this point. They are both solidly in the dramatic cantata mold, so I suppose it comes down to who I prefer more in style and performance. On that front, then, I think Jacobs has the essence of the drama down about right. His performance just seems right.

I have the Jacobs on HM as well as Parrott on veritas and Gardiner on Archiv.

I keep going back to the Gardiner on Archiv.

Has a magical quality - so right overall. Sound is great also and hall ambience is perfect.

Need quality equipment to really appreciate - like my headphone system with the Rega Saturn CDP and Bada PH 12 amp.