[Shike]

In all honesty I think the whole tag "mid-fi" is ludicrous, and thought the OP would reinforce such a thing given his philosophy.  If price != performance then is this tier truly mid-fi and if so why?  Everytime I hear these tiers I get a headache I swear.

 

[pp312]

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While I do not agree with sugarkang on every level; I can see his frustration as his main and most important point is constantly being missed.
 
While I'm all for the mathematically and scientifically proven, if he can't hear the difference he can't hear the difference. The point is moot for him, so he did not include it in his review.
 

 
 
No, and if he can't hear the difference, and neither can I, and neither can thousands of others, one has to wonder, as with the MP3 v. lossless debate, how big the difference is. I almost wrote how "real", but I'm prepared to accept there are noticeably differences, just not important ones compared to the differences in headphones themselves and recording quality. It's more a question of getting things in proportion than anything else.  

That's the thing though: it depends.  See the case with Stereophile with a 5dB deviation -- that would clearly be audible.  In this case though the output impedance didn't present a large problem, in other cases it can and does unfortunately

I presume you're referring to an output impedance v. frequency thing, which is really a separate issue. I think sugarkang is simply saying he can't hear a difference in amps, all things being equal, and therefore doesn't want to include that factor in his assessments, and in that I think he's wise. 

 

[sugarkang]

XB-700 is not part of the mid-fi.  It is only there as a reference for the bass portion of the review.  It will not be considered for any reviews after.
 
D-2000 = $250
DT-880 = $250
HD-650 = $330 (and also 10 years old, so I consider that a disadvantage)
 
Another big reason these are reviewed together is that the graphs are very similar.  I wanted to talk about the differences that can't be seen in the graphs.
 
Similar price; similar graphs.  Is that unreasonable?
 
 
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your title reads "mid-fi battle", but you include hd650 and DT880 in your review. I agree that D2000 and XB700 are mid-fi but the price of hd650 and dt880 would suggest they are intended closer to the "high end" league. Although no way those 2 models are the best offerings the companies have but i remembered there was a time when HD650 was the flagship product of Sens.

 

[sugarkang]

Here we go.  People want to take evaluations on cans as representative of their personal lives.  I didn't call you mid-fi. 
Like I said, all of these are $50 cans, and price does not equal performance.
 
However, price affects your pocketbook, and to that extent they are very, very similar.
 
 
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In all honesty I think the whole tag "mid-fi" is ludicrous, and thought the OP would reinforce such a thing given his philosophy.  If price != performance then is this tier truly mid-fi and if so why?  Everytime I hear these tiers I get a headache I swear.

 

[windcar]

well, good for you, the hd650 and dt880 are like 1.5x the price of d2000 over here where i live.

 

[sugarkang]

I bought all three of those on the internet. 
Presumably, it could be "good for you" as well. 
 
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well, good for you, the hd650 and dt880 are like 1.5x the price of d2000 over here where i live.

 

[Trysaeder]

I'm agreeing with you by providing more info.
 
But that's fine too.
 
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Ignore please. 
 
This is a headphone review thread. 
This thread is for people that already believe in my philosophy,
not an amp discussion thread. 
 
If you disagree on amps, post elsewhere. 
Keep your posts relevant. 

 

[sugarkang]

haha.  I was agreeing with you too.  Telling you to ignore the other guy. 
Sorry, that wasn't clear.
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I'm agreeing with you by providing more info.
 
But that's fine too.
 

 

[sugarkang]

Guitar review partially up.
All amp discussion will be ignored.

 

[sphinxvc]

Quote:

XB-700 is not part of the mid-fi.  It is only there as a reference for the bass portion of the review.  It will not be considered for any reviews after.
 
D-2000 = $250
DT-880 = $250
HD-650 = $330 (and also 10 years old, so I consider that a disadvantage)
 
Another big reason these are reviewed together is that the graphs are very similar.  I wanted to talk about the differences that can't be seen in the graphs.
 
Similar price; similar graphs.  Is that unreasonable?
 

 
As you mention in your guitar review, the 650s have different (updated?) drivers as-of 2009 so they're not exactly 10 years old.
 

 

[Mercer]

 

[imademymark]

I actually really liked how the OP set out his philosophy up front, and I agree with most of it except maybe the part about different amps. But that's not something for this thread and I found most of the review quite coherent anyway. Although, of the three compared, I like the DT880s best, most of the observations appear fairly in line with what I remember hearing.
 
also a quick shoutout to Shike - I actually thought you were being extremely helpful and informative, and some of the links make very useful reading Moreover, a debate between "Science says there is a difference" and "I can't hear the difference" is easily reconcilable. 
 
On the other hand, the less said about "Science says there is no difference" and "I can hear a difference" the better. 
 
 

 

[BlackbeardBen]

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Yup.

 

[disastermouse]

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You're right.  I was not trying to spread misinformation.  I have no opinions on tube amps either way because I have no experience with them.  Review edited above to reflect this. All comments on amps are for solid state and readers should assume such. 
 
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Yeah, he is way off base here. I have a $100 DIY tube amp that I can make sound 10 different ways depending on the tubes and opamps I put in it.
 

 
 
Double blind A/B yourself with my $50 amp versus your favorite $1,000 amp and then come back and post results.  As to the allegation that I am overestimating the performance, I'll just say that I owned a Meier Corda.  I know what a good amp sounds like.  Specifically, a good amp sounds like nothing.  It provides power with a low noise floor.  My $50 amp does everything the expensive amp does. 
 
The hardest thing to drive properly without distortion is bass.  I have 3 "neutral" headphone amps here.  The Asus Xonar has a built in amp, the E5 and the Headamp4.  There is no "color" distinction between any of them.  According to your logic, I'm lacking the "power to drive."  If that's true, you should also realize that the Headamp4 is MUCH more powerful than the E5, correct?  So, then the Headamp4 should be head and shoulders above the E5 in sound as well, right?  
 
It isn't.  It's exactly the same.  The only difference is how far I can drive volume levels.  The E5 doesn't go that far.  The Headamp4 goes way beyond normal listening levels.  If that weren't enough, my signal is being amplified TWICE.  I have the ASUS Xonar and the Headamp4 on one chain.  One amp, three amps, it doesn't matter:  they all sound the same. 
 
Take the Pepsi challenge and blind A/B yourself.  Otherwise, see my philosophy above. 
 
 
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You're greatly overestimating the performance of something like the ART amp you reviewed.  I'm surprised no one brought it to your attention, but these are the specs:
 

Wait....you're comparing these cans with a $50 amp that no one much seems to like and lacks in obvious ways?
 
Makes the rest of the review a fail.  Sorry.

 

[doing]

This is a very interesting view, one not often voiced on the forum.  It really is a good read and I appreciate it.  Looking forward to future entries.