Life after Yggdrasil?
Jul 16, 2016 at 2:31 PM Post #511 of 1,366
  @Torq
 
Thanks to you... I picked up a lifatec cable for my Pavane. After much research prior to purchasing the PAVANE I walked away assuming the USB was a very well thought out piece of the PAVANES build, not being your average.
 
The Lifatec opens the sound up giving better layering, clarity, and airiness. 
 
The lifatec optical has helped me out a bit as a 'for now' solution because I was paining over immediately buying something like the rednet 3. I will enjoy it this way for a season and then upgrade later. 
 
I know it is off topic but big ups anyway.  


Glad you're liking it!
 
They're the best quality/performance optical cables I've found, regardless of price.  That that price is pretty low compared to, say, AudioQuest (etc.) is an extra bonus.  Particularly when the best cable AudioQuest sell is not even close on basic spec to the Lifatec, never mind results.
 
Jul 16, 2016 at 2:36 PM Post #512 of 1,366
  Hugely enjoying this thread...
 
I said once before it is one of the better thread on HeadFi.. nope... it's THE best..
 
How about adding a bit of fun... won't cost you anything Torq..
 
Stick a poll on the front as to which Dac we reckon you will end up with.
 
Those that have been following along from the beginning and get where your at could make a pretty good stab at it..
 
I have a front runner if i had to guess..... understanding there are a lot more comments and impressions to come from you which could change it.


I could put up a poll ... I won't until I have the remaining DACs auditioned though ... otherwise there's a good chance half the guesses will simply be for things that I eliminate before the final round of evaluations from the shortlist I'm compiling.
 
And that's how the rest of the process will go:
 
  • Audition the DACs I've not heard yet (those still listed in black).
  • Add those that are worthy to the shortlist.
  • Finally compare the shortlisted DACs to each other and pick what I'm going to buy.
 
I may wind up buying more than one DAC at the end of this, as well.  The only sure thing is that I'm buying at least one, since I have to!
 
Jul 16, 2016 at 2:39 PM Post #513 of 1,366
also half of the polls will be for what people actually own. Not a lot of people have had the chance to actually try this gear themselves and make comparisons. 
 
I personally have a bias for the Pavane because I own one. itd be very tough to not pick what you own. I have heard the YGGY myself but not long enough. 
 
A poll would be interesting but no doubt the DAVE would win. 
 
Jul 16, 2016 at 2:39 PM Post #514 of 1,366
I hope you're gonna wait buying anything untill the Schiit Show. Just in case 
wink.gif

 
Jul 16, 2016 at 2:40 PM Post #515 of 1,366
If polling it may become a self fulfilling prophecy. You may get pressure by tge masses


Not a factor.
 
I'm buying for me, posting my impressions and observing my own biases.  And, more importantly, spending my money.  Which means all the input in the world won't sway what I ultimately purchase.  And if that choice isn't popular, well, that's too bad.
 
I've never bought anything to impress anyone else and don't buy things because other people think they're good unless I happen to come to the same conclusion myself.
 
The only way to sway my opinion is, frankly, to bring cash.
 
(In other words, buy the DAC for me!)
 
Jul 16, 2016 at 2:49 PM Post #516 of 1,366
  I hope you're gonna wait buying anything untill the Schiit Show. Just in case 
wink.gif

 
Probably not.
 
If it works out that way, that's cool, but I won't wait specifically for it.  There are a few reasons for that ...
 
First, I needed this DAC weeks ago!  This is taking far too long as it is.  I'm on the fence about just buying one of the units I've already got on the shortlist just to tide me over while I finish the overall process, and then selling it/re-purposing it later if it winds up not being my final choice when I've finished listening to everything.
 
Two, if Schiit announce a new DAC, they've already said it won't be a replacement for Yggdrasil - that's their top of the line and if they improve it those improvements would come via upgrades.  While I certainly wouldn't be upset if they did announce a new, higher-end, unit (and would certainly audition it), I just don't see them doing that ahead of releasing any upgrades for Yggdrasil.  And if there are upgrades for Yggdrasil then it's pretty much a shoe-in that I'd audition/buy them to upgrade my existing unit, at a minimum, anyway.
 
Third, if the "Manhattan Project" is of interest, once we know what it is, it'll work with whatever I buy (the Linn gear excepted - but that I already own) anyway, as I understand what's been "exposed" about it before.
 
So I don't see anything on the DAC landscape from Schiit this year that would make any sense for me to wait for.
 
Jul 16, 2016 at 3:06 PM Post #517 of 1,366
   
Probably not.
 
If it works out that way, that's cool, but I won't wait specifically for it.  There are a few reasons for that ...
 
First, I needed this DAC weeks ago!  This is taking far too long as it is.  I'm on the fence about just buying one of the units I've already got on the shortlist just to tide me over while I finish the overall process, and then selling it/re-purposing it later if it winds up not being my final choice when I've finished listening to everything.
 
Two, if Schiit announce a new DAC, they've already said it won't be a replacement for Yggdrasil - that's their top of the line and if they improve it those improvements would come via upgrades.  While I certainly wouldn't be upset if they did announce a new, higher-end, unit (and would certainly audition it), I just don't see them doing that ahead of releasing any upgrades for Yggdrasil.  And if there are upgrades for Yggdrasil then it's pretty much a shoe-in that I'd audition/buy them to upgrade my existing unit, at a minimum, anyway.
 
Third, if the "Manhattan Project" is of interest, once we know what it is, it'll work with whatever I buy (the Linn gear excepted - but that I already own) anyway, as I understand what's been "exposed" about it before.
 
So I don't see anything on the DAC landscape from Schiit this year that would make any sense for me to wait for.

 
I can relate to your urge to just buy instead of keep waiting. The reason I said it was because of something Jason has said earlier:
 
  2. Some of what I'm working on will affect the current line. After the SchiitShow, you'll understand very well what I mean when I say, "Sometimes you have to kill your own children," because I think what's coming will have a pretty profound impact on our own line (and, I think, an even larger impact on the industry). But then again, I have been wrong before. We'll see. But it is a significantly new direction for us. Hence the cloak and dagger stuff.

 
Jul 16, 2016 at 3:49 PM Post #519 of 1,366
   
I can relate to your urge to just buy instead of keep waiting. The reason I said it was because of something Jason has said earlier:
 


We'll see what they come out with.
 
If it's speaker-centric I won't care, since I just moved my existing Linn system to their "Exakt" system, and only Linn make stuff that works there.
 
Can't imagine a DAC that surpassed Yggdrasil without it being something that Yggdrasil can be upgraded to (that would pretty much kill credibility in their "upgradeable DAC" marketing).  And if it's something new, that can't work with Yggdrasil but would work with a new DAC then I'll have to evaluate it on the basis of what it adds that I desire or need.
 
I could see them coming up with a transport/interface and DAC that worked together, and that required a new interface that couldn't be retro-fitted to Yggdrasil (though I doubt it), but that'd need a lot more software than I think Schiit would want to get into.
 
And if it's something that makes Ragnarok obsolete, or is just a higher-end headphone-specific solution, then I'll sell what I have and upgrade if it's compelling to do so.  As it is, I'm not changing my WA5-LE unless it's for a WA234 (or Schiit come out with a super-pretty, fantastic sounding, 300B-based headphone amp).
 
So, definitely curious as to what they announce - but not really worried about it as it'll either not be relevant to me, be something I can upgrade to get to, or something that makes me sell some of my existing stuff and switch to the new stuff.
 
Jul 17, 2016 at 7:34 PM Post #521 of 1,366

Bricasti

M1 DAC (-)
 
I find the aesthetics of the M1 quite appealing; it’s reminiscent of the SimAudio’s Moon NEO range, the looks of which I also quite like.
 
Inside the M1 you’ll find dual, stereo, AD 1955 DAC chips operated in mono-mode.  In fact, the entire DAC is built in a dual-mono configuration, down to power supplies.  If you pull the top off you’ll see either side of the unit has matching power supplies on separate boards, two individual DAC/analog boards (made with a special material which helps with HF EMI), and then a separate power supply for the control and interface electronics, which also has its own board.
 
Incidentally, you’ll find the same DAC chips, in the same configuration, in something like the Emotiva Stealth DC-1, which is a much more wallet-friendly $499.  Though you’ll forego the trick filters, dual-mono construction, special materials and so on.
 
Filters in the M1 are custom in-house jobs, and selectable.  There’s a bunch of them, 15 I think, from what I recall.  Actually I think there are some additional filters for DSD operation, but I did not try it in that mode as I was already “off the DSD train” at that point.  The filters do make a difference to the sound, and while some aren’t much different to others (to the point that I couldn’t tell some of them apart at all) I found myself consistently preferring the minimum phase filters.  This has pretty much been the case with every DAC I’ve heard that offers selectable filters and apodizing/minimum phase options.
 
Anyway, technical waffle over … how does it sound?
 
Really very good, actually.
 
This shouldn’t really be surprising given the price of entry, though some of the other units in this evaluation have left me wondering!
 
It didn’t, as with many other units I’ve listened to now, measure up to Yggdrasil in the reproduction of piano for me.  It was able to render the soundstage at a level where I could still discern the left-to-right projection of which notes were being hit (likely due to the excellent stereo separation), but didn’t find it quite matched Schiit’s monster in terms of overall tone. 
 
Imaging was good, but not in the same league as the Chord DACs or Yggdrasil; placement and separation in 2D space was solid, but the image felt lacking in height (via speakers).
 
I found the overall presentation to be quite fluid and organic, with a very even projection across the spectrum.  Bass was tight, controlled, articulate, detailed and tuneful, perhaps slightly edging ahead of the Schiit unit with very fast bass work.  Higher registers were portrayed with no sibilance or drama, even on challenging female vocals – to the degree that this might be the best rival to Yggdrasil in this regard – without feeling like it’s softening those vocals (which was something apparent with some DSD and D/S based converters).  The mid-range was perhaps a little fuller than Yggdrasil tends to render.
 
In fact, I might describe the overall sound of the Bricasti as slightly meatier overall than Yggdrasil.  I wouldn’t describe Yggdrasil as having a lean sound … but it’s a shade leaner than the M1.  I could listen to either, but find this effect signature of the Yggdrasil to be more to my liking with a greater portion of my listening material.
 
Overall detail/resolution was excellent, but I felt the Yggdrasil was still ahead here (especially with another favorite evaluation … brushwork with cymbals).  And instrumental separation would go to Yggdrasil as well, though again there’s really not much it and this was really only apparent with very complex passages or those with lots of subtle texture.
 
Dynamics and transients often favored Yggdrasil, but this was not something that was apparent on every recording, and at times I felt the Bricasti was being a bit more honest here.  This might be the difference in the leaner vs. meatier portrayal between the two, that was hard to pin down.  Maybe Yggdrasil seems a bit more “exciting” as a result, but that’s only good if it’s supposed to be.
 
I found the M1 to be very musical and pleasure to listen to.  Involvement was good and it was quite able to bring out suitable emotional responses, much like Yggdrasil, but unlike a number of other DACs that I’ve gone through so far.  As another comparison, I found it slightly less detailed than the Hugo TT and the Chord unit also imaged significantly better (so did the basic Hugo, now that I think about it), but the M1 had a more enjoyable presentation overall.
 
So there are a few things here that, for me, slightly edge out Yggdrasil, but certainly not across the board, and some were music, mood or signature preference dependent.  Musicality and involvement was, despite that, at a very similar level and actually perhaps ahead of the PS Audio units, at least prior to the latest software update I put on them.
 
This is definitely worth an audition … but it’s hard to consider it much of a competitor to Yggdrasil on the basis that it’s fully four times the Schiit DAC’s price.  Particularly where for me it did a bit less impressively with the music I tend to favor, and my signature preferences, than my existing reference.  As a result, as good as it is, I just don’t think it’s worth the asking price for me – given what I already have and what’s out there.  I could have another Yggdrasil, and a PS Audio DirectStream and still have change for the Network Bridge, or another Yggdrasil and the Metrum Pavane (which I also liked better overall).
 
That’s a tough reality …
 
So, this doesn’t make it to my shortlist, but I’d still encourage anyone that’s interested in DACs at this level to seek out an audition.  It’s musically very rewarding.
 
Jul 17, 2016 at 10:30 PM Post #522 of 1,366
this thread will come down as the best modern dac shoot out. and again, when I researched for dac, the bricasti m1 was definitely one I knew it was good, same for metrum pavane just by knowing whos word to trust.  I wish you could take all the dac youve liked in the test, then do a level matched blind test with a couple of friends...that would be incredible.
 
thanks again for that crazy project of yours! I hope after that test, you do this for amps!
 
Jul 17, 2016 at 10:59 PM Post #523 of 1,366
The only tough part about @Torq assessment is that his own personal brain being used to the yggdrasil's sound may inhibit his ability to hear another sound signature as actually better, even for his tastes. Usually we know what we like right off the bat but there are exceptions.
 
I have tried gear myself and used what I had first as a reference. That made a lot of other gear sound off in balance...until I actually had it a few days and let my mind get used to the sound of the other gear. Then I was able to listen with less bias and later my opinion of the new comer changed. 
 
Usually though if it doesnt grab you right away there is a reason, but for the close calls it can be tough on a one or two day listen. 
 
Jul 17, 2016 at 11:53 PM Post #524 of 1,366
definitely. what wows you at first may not be something that will wow you over time.
tricky hobby and I think the only way to truly know a gear is to live with them a couple of weeks.
 
for example with speakers, at first I thought my harbeth p3esr were the best sound ever but after a while I do find the sound a bit boring for certain music.
 
Jul 18, 2016 at 12:34 AM Post #525 of 1,366
  The only tough part about @Torq assessment is that his own personal brain being used to the yggdrasil's sound may inhibit his ability to hear another sound signature as actually better, even for his tastes. Usually we know what we like right off the bat but there are exceptions.
 
I have tried gear myself and used what I had first as a reference. That made a lot of other gear sound off in balance...until I actually had it a few days and let my mind get used to the sound of the other gear. Then I was able to listen with less bias and later my opinion of the new comer changed. 
 
Usually though if it doesnt grab you right away there is a reason, but for the close calls it can be tough on a one or two day listen. 


That's definitely a potential hazard.
 
It's also one I'm hoping to ameliorate somewhat with the auditions I'll be doing once I have my entire shortlist built.  In most cases I believe I can get the DACs I want to hear for a couple of weeks, and if not I may do a shorter list after my shortlist... just to make sure I do get more protracted listening time with the final few contenders.
 
Also, remember that I'm NOT just making my choice on sound quality alone.
 

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