[hardbop]

I have my ear molds made and ready to go. Now I just need to decide on which IEM to get.
 
This is going to be my first custom, which is something I've wanted to get for almost as long as I've been here.
 
I'm finally ready to pull the trigger and I think I'm going to aim right for the top.

 

[Jap]

Has anyone ever performed a direct comparison between the Layla or Angie and the Ultimate Ears Reference Monitors (UERM's)? I was wondering how the UERM's stack up against either of the two JHA Sirens with respect to transparency, macro/micro details, soundstage (or, if you prefer, head-stage), frequency range and overall balance?
 
EDIT I didn't realize that UE now has two reference monitors: the UERM's are studio montors are tuned for producers and studio engineers and sport 3 balanced amatures (BA's), a 3-way crossover, and two distinct channels ($999). The UE Personal Reference Monitor (UEPRM) is a "user-tuned custon in-ear monitor made to order based on each user's individual  preferences." The UEPRM includes 5 BA's, a 4-way crossover, and three distinct channels ($1999).
 
So my question becomes: has anyone ever performed a direct comparison between the Layla or Angie nd either the UERM or UEPRM?

 

[reeltime]

  Has anyone ever performed a direct comparison between the Layla or Angie and the Ultimate Ears Reference Monitors (UERM's)? I was wondering how the UERM's stack up against either of the two JHA Sirens with respect to transparency, macro/micro details, soundstage (or, if you prefer, head-stage), frequency range and overall balance?
 
EDIT I didn't realize that UE no has two reference monitors: the UERM's are studio montors are tuned for producers and studio engineers and sport 3 balanced amatures (BA's), a 3-way crossover, and two distinct channels ($999). The UE Personal Reference Monitor (UEPRM) is a "user-tuned custon in-ear monitor made to order based on each user's individual  preferences." The UEPRM includes 5 BA's, a 4-way crossover, and three distinct channels ($1999).
 
So my question becomes: has anyone ever performed a direct comparison between the Layla or Angie nd either the UERM or UEPRM?

Yes, I A/B'd the Layla and the UERM.  I am a UERM owner (untuned, flat response).  The UERMs were developed for an entirely different purpose than the Layla.  The UERMs were designed by audio engineers to give other audio engineers a flat response curve for mixing and post production, with exceptional detail when they are working in the field.  It's because of the detail that they've become popular as listening earbuds, too.  
 
I spend 7 or 8 hours a day with the UERMs.  They are a terrific tool for getting a good representation of what is being recorded.  They are neutral as neutral gets.  The bass isn't overextended, they upper frequencies not too bright.  This is to say: They are a fairly boring headphone.  Neutral does not make for an amazing listening experience.  That said, the UERMs are excellent at what they do.
 
If I were going for a listening experience with the UERM, I'd get the custom tuned model and punch the bass response and enhance the upper mid and upper frequencies.
 
The Layla is in another class.  They are designed with listening and music enjoyment in mind-- so by class I mean "classification" as well as quality.  They serve a different purpose than the UERM.  
 
The Layla is a sensation from the second you put them in.  Terrific detail and even decent soundstage for a closed earbud.  The bass response that is the first thing you notice with them.  Deep sub bass that doesn't overdrive the music and there is little bloat.  Crisp highs without crossing into sibilance.  They are the best listening earbud I've ever heard, and to my ears, worth every penny (more than twice the cost of my UERMs).  
 
Would I want to mix with them?  Never.  Way too much punch and brightness for mixing.  Would I want them with me for relaxing with an Astell & Kern player and a Chord Hugo on the road?  Absolutely.  To my ears they are the best buds you can buy, though not the best headphone.  
 
Almost any open-backed, full-size, over-the-ear headphone sounds superior to them.  I'd say anything over the HE-400 will reap a better listening experience than the Layla, however the Layla is far more transportable and convenient.  I'd love to get a custom fit version for when I'm traveling.  

 

[Jap]

Thank you very much, Reeltime, for your straightforward reply!

 
I was wondering whether the UERM's possessed what many call a clinical sound, which is the way that accurate phones/iems designed for professional sound recording are often described. If so, then they are well designed for their purpose.
 
The UEPRM's appear to be another matter since they can be designed to suit the user' tastes. I have been reviewing a thread last night started by Headfi' Jude, where he sat down with Ultimate Ears' personnel to have his sound preferences tested in preparation to having his own custom UEPRM's made. (See http://www.head-fi.org/t/612445/ultimate-ears-personal-reference-monitors-the-custom-custom-in-ear-monitor.) Apparently, UE believes iems can be customized not only for personal fit but also for sonic taste. I haven't reached the point where Jude reported on his custom UEPRM's yet. However, I wonder if this may not be a better way for me to go.
 
I love accuracy mixed with an enjoyable sound. Jude (and others) wanted the UERM's clinical accuracy with the bass enhanced just a tad for added punch, the mids tweaked just a bit for a more upfront sound, and the treble adjusted for a little more brightness. Nothing too over the top for really exaggerated sound, but just tweaked enough to add enjoyment.
 
I was really turned off by an earlier (in this thread) report that the Layla's were far removed from reference sound, high detail notwithstanding. I remember the reviewer (who's nametag escapes me at the moment) having to tweak the sound to his liking with an equalizer. That's fine for home usage. However, if you want to use them on the go, unless you can find a truly good portable equalizer (and there are none that I am aware of) you are back to square one. 

I would still have to shell out twice the money as the stock UERM's goes for $999 while the UEPRM's begin at $1999, with more dollars for custom touches. I want the uber accuracy mixed with fun. I am starting to lean towards the Ultimate Ears custom solution for my desires. I am also extremely turned off by reports of poor craftmanship in the freshly finished JHA Layla's. Who wants to spend over $2500 for a poorly finished job? I will have to investigate reports on UE's craftmanship on the UEPRM's. However, I strongly suspect the Layla's are not for me. I still owe it to myself to audition them sometime if only to complete my due diligence
 
I already own professional monitors designed for studio usage (Sennheiser HD250 Linear II) and for portable location usage (Sennheiser HD25-1). The HD250 has more bass---true visceral bass at that!--- than I have ever heard from any set of cans (although I have heard there are cans with even more!!!). It has extended treble for crystal clear, non-fatiguing highs, and I removed the foam covering the transducers to un-muffle the mids . The HD25-1 has been further enhanced with Headphile's mellow silver cabling throughout the entire phone housing, which punches up the bass, mids, and treble just enough to convert the clinical sound to an accurate but fun phone. I seek to do likewise with custom IEM's for ultra portability.

 

[briskly]

There are quite a few capable equalizers for portable players. They are more common on smartphone platforms than dedicated DAPs for whatever reason. Neutron for Android, EQu, Equalizer Pro, Accudio, and many others for iOS. If you really want the linear phase option, which I think is a terrible idea, Onkyo HF player has one, or make your own impulse and use that with V4A to convolve whatever response desired.
 
Pretty sure the review you are thinking of was posted by tumburu. As for Layla vs. UERM, I've noticed my impressions of IEMs and headphones differ from the usual poster, but hopefully you find some use out of them.
 
Layla's bass at 7 o'clock sounds pretty flat to my ear, with less bass than the UERM. I'd be willing to bet the bass would be close to a flat line on a graph, as JH claims. I've noticed most people don't leave it at 7 o'clock (and that people prefer more bass than a flat line), but I never felt the need to make the adjustment. Relative to min.bass Layla, UERM has a little midbass lift. I think I would prefer a bit more upper midrange on both sets, but Layla seemed more uneven and less smooth in the 1-4kHz region. Layla's overall tone is darker than the UERM, but I picked up on some lower treble peaking on Layla. I think that was the result of a shallow fit, but there would still be some semblance of the peak remaining with silicone or Comply sleeves.
 
UERM: Mild smiley EQ to flat.
Layla: Darker than flat, with more wiggles in mid/highs

 

[Jap]

Thanks, Brisley, for your equalizer suggestions. I will check them out to see how portable and flexible they really are. Yes, it was Tumburu's review that made me start rethinking a Layla acquisition.

 

[reeltime]

   
I was wondering whether the UERM's possessed what many call a clinical sound, which is the way that accurate phones/iems designed for professional sound recording are often described. If so, then they are well designed for their purpose.
 
The UEPRM's appear to be another matter since they can be designed to suit the user' tastes. I have been reviewing a thread last night started by Headfi' Jude, where he sat down with Ultimate Ears' personnel to have his sound preferences tested in preparation to having his own custom UEPRM's made. (See http://www.head-fi.org/t/612445/ultimate-ears-personal-reference-monitors-the-custom-custom-in-ear-monitor.) Apparently, UE believes iems can be customized not only for personal fit but also for sonic taste. I haven't reached the point where Jude reported on his custom UEPRM's yet. However, I wonder if this may not be a better way for me to go.
 
I love accuracy mixed with an enjoyable sound. Jude (and others) wanted the UERM's clinical accuracy with the bass enhanced just a tad for added punch, the mids tweaked just a bit for a more upfront sound, and the treble adjusted for a little more brightness. Nothing too over the top for really exaggerated sound, but just tweaked enough to add enjoyment.
 
I was really turned off by an earlier (in this thread) report that the Layla's were far removed from reference sound, high detail notwithstanding. I remember the reviewer (who's nametag escapes me at the moment) having to tweak the sound to his liking with an equalizer. That's fine for home usage. However, if you want to use them on the go, unless you can find a truly good portable equalizer (and there are none that I am aware of) you are back to square one. 

I would still have to shell out twice the money as the stock UERM's goes for $999 while the UEPRM's begin at $1999, with more dollars for custom touches. I want the uber accuracy mixed with fun. I am starting to lean towards the Ultimate Ears custom solution for my desires. I am also extremely turned off by reports of poor craftmanship in the freshly finished JHA Layla's. Who wants to spend over $2500 for a poorly finished job? I will have to investigate reports on UE's craftmanship on the UEPRM's. However, I strongly suspect the Layla's are not for me. I still owe it to myself to audition them sometime if only to complete my due diligence
 
I already own professional monitors designed for studio usage (Sennheiser HD250 Linear II) and for portable location usage (Sennheiser HD25-1). The HD250 has more bass---true visceral bass at that!--- than I have ever heard from any set of cans (although I have heard there are cans with even more!!!). It has extended treble for crystal clear, non-fatiguing highs, and I removed the foam covering the transducers to un-muffle the mids . The HD25-1 has been further enhanced with Headphile's mellow silver cabling throughout the entire phone housing, which punches up the bass, mids, and treble just enough to convert the clinical sound to an accurate but fun phone. I seek to do likewise with custom IEM's for ultra portability.

 
I'm a little confused by what your purpose is behind your purchase.  Are you looking at the Layla and UEPRMs for listening, or for work and mixing?  If the purpose is a portable solution for mixing (an earbud for work), the standard UERM is the way to go.  You don't want all of that extended bass and treble coloring the sound when you are mixing.  The UERM is purposely uncolored.  
 
There's a thread on this site where we got into an intense debate over complaints that the UERM doesn't have extended bass.  Users were complaining that UE should change the UERM and give it more punch and sparkle.  I argued that the product should not be changed, the purpose of the UERM is for audio engineers who require a flat response custom earbud.  They are not intended for the listening market (though there's no harm in using them for listening, they're just flat and kind of boring.)  
 
If you are in the market for a high end listening earbud, you want something that's colored.  Colored is good.  Flat is too clinical.  A good listening headphone should have a point of view-- which is why there is a UEPRM.  It's the UERM for a listening audience.  
 
I'd encourage you to hear the Layla.  In my opinion, the Layla is a much better earbud than the UEPRM. You're jumping from 3 drivers to 12 drivers.  How the hell JH figured out how to get the timing accurate with 12 drivers is a modern marvel.  The result is extreme detail and soundstage I've not heard anywhere else in an earbud.  If your concern is construction, JH will build you a Layla in a custom.  I'd highly recommend listening to the Layla, then opting for the custom in-ear option.  Customs give a much better seal than a generic rubber plug.  Definitely the way to go, plus you decrease the threat of theft-- no one can wear your custom earbud but you.
 
If you're contemplating spending $2000 or more on earbuds, take a listen to the over the ear headphones in that price range.  There are some serious players that deliver earth shattering sound at that price point.  The HifiMan HE-1000, LCD3, and Sennheiser HD800 are so much better than ANY in-ear on the market.  The jump in sound quality from the Layla to the LCD3 or HE1000 is positively massive.  The jump from your HD250 to any of these headphones is massive.  These are serious listening headphones for the audiophile market.

 

[Jap]

   
I'm a little confused by what your purpose is behind your purchase.  Are you looking at the Layla and UEPRMs for listening, or for work and mixing?  If the purpose is a portable solution for mixing (an earbud for work), the standard UERM is the way to go.  You don't want all of that extended bass and treble coloring the sound when you are mixing.  The UERM is purposely uncolored.  
 
There's a thread on this site where we got into an intense debate over complaints that the UERM doesn't have extended bass.  Users were complaining that UE should change the UERM and give it more punch and sparkle.  I argued that the product should not be changed, the purpose of the UERM is for audio engineers who require a flat response custom earbud.  They are not intended for the listening market (though there's no harm in using them for listening, they're just flat and kind of boring.)  
 
If you are in the market for a high end listening earbud, you want something that's colored.  Colored is good.  Flat is too clinical.  A good listening headphone should have a point of view-- which is why there is a UEPRM.  It's the UERM for a listening audience.  
 
I'd encourage you to hear the Layla.  In my opinion, the Layla is a much better earbud than the UEPRM. You're jumping from 3 drivers to 12 drivers.  How the hell JH figured out how to get the timing accurate with 12 drivers is a modern marvel.  The result is extreme detail and soundstage I've not heard anywhere else in an earbud.  If your concern is construction, JH will build you a Layla in a custom.  I'd highly recommend listening to the Layla, then opting for the custom in-ear option.  Customs give a much better seal than a generic rubber plug.  Definitely the way to go, plus you decrease the threat of theft-- no one can wear your custom earbud but you.
 
If you're contemplating spending $2000 or more on earbuds, take a listen to the over the ear headphones in that price range.  There are some serious players that deliver earth shattering sound at that price point.  The HifiMan HE-1000, LCD3, and Sennheiser HD800 are so much better than ANY in-ear on the market.  The jump in sound quality from the Layla to the LCD3 or HE1000 is positively massive.  The jump from your HD250 to any of these headphones is massive.  These are serious listening headphones for the audiophile market.

 
The point of me even considering an IEM is for ultra portability with minimal compromise.
 
I would not be in favor of altering the UERM, especially since there is a customizable alternative in the UEPRM. What I want is a slightly tweaked pro monitor CIEM, which is what the UEPRM can be.
 
One correction: the UERM has 3 drvers while the UEPRM has 5 drivers. This is more than doubled by the Layla's 12  drivers.
 
I have put off auditioning the Layla because other more pressing matters have dominated. It would be helpful to get an idea of how the Layla and the UEPRM sound before I commit to a custom fitting.
 
I have not heard some of the more recent circumaural headphones such as the HifiMan HE-1000 or the LCD3. It's been quite a few years since I have been to any Head-fi meets. I will eventually have to see what's out there. I am not in a super rush to get anything just yet. I am exploring options. I know I need to replace audio cables on both the HD25-1 and HD250. The high end cables from Oyaide extracts great detail and clarity from both of those phones, which share the same cables.

 

[eke2k6]

A few issues in the last few posts.

"Bass extension" and "treble extension" do not color an iem's sound signature. The quantities do.

Secondly, the UERM, while having a relatively I colored signature, is far from boring. There was never a song I listened to with it that made me wish for more bass or treble. The UERM actually has great extension in the treble and bass. It wouldn't be called "reference" if it shorted the listener on frequency response. The Layla (which I haven't heard) may be more exciting, but from the descriptions here it seems like it's sound signature is like turning the brightness and contrast up on a HDTV. Nice to look at, but it still is what it is.

Lastly is the whole driver issue. 10 years ago, you could maybe make an argument that more drivers are better. Now, balanced armatures are becoming more specialized for audio. Yes, the UERM has 3 drivers, but take a look at the bass driver to see just how huge that thing is. It's going to move a heck of a lot more air than those smaller full range drivers will.

My advice to the person searching is to do your absolute best to find a means of audition before spending over a thousand dollars (or 2 grand in the case of the Layla) on something that is impossible to return. The second you pay for a custom IEM is the same second it starts to depreciate in value. Most people sell their customs for about half of the purchase price. Just something to keep in mind.

 

[Jap]

A few issues in the last few posts.

"Bass extension" and "treble extension" do not color an iem's sound signature. The quantities do.

Secondly, the UERM, while having a relatively I colored signature, is far from boring. There was never a song I listened to with it that made me wish for more bass or treble. The UERM actually has great extension in the treble and bass. It wouldn't be called "reference" if it shorted the listener on frequency response. The Layla (which I haven't heard) may be more exciting, but from the descriptions here it seems like it's sound signature is like turning the brightness and contrast up on a HDTV. Nice to look at, but it still is what it is.

Lastly is the whole driver issue. 10 years ago, you could maybe make an argument that more drivers are better. Now, balanced armatures are becoming more specialized for audio. Yes, the UERM has 3 drivers, but take a look at the bass driver to see just how huge that thing is. It's going to move a heck of a lot more air than those smaller full range drivers will.

My advice to the person searching is to do your absolute best to find a means of audition before spending over a thousand dollars (or 2 grand in the case of the Layla) on something that is impossible to return. The second you pay for a custom IEM is the same second it starts to depreciate in value. Most people sell their customs for about half of the purchase price. Just something to keep in mind.

 
Thank you very much for your thoughts, Eke2k6. I have every intention of auditioning the IEMs under consideration before I spend any green.

 

[tumburu]

Lastly is the whole driver issue. 10 years ago, you could maybe make an argument that more drivers are better. Now, balanced armatures are becoming more specialized for audio. Yes, the UERM has 3 drivers, but take a look at the bass driver to see just how huge that thing is. It's going to move a heck of a lot more air than those smaller full range drivers will.

 
While I was always pointing out the obvious flaws in Layla's design, bass is not one of them. It delivers both massive (if you want it) and highest quality bass. It's an an experience in itself, very different from the dynamic, planar or 'usual' BA bass.

 

[reeltime]

A few issues in the last few posts.

"Bass extension" and "treble extension" do not color an iem's sound signature. The quantities do.

Secondly, the UERM, while having a relatively I colored signature, is far from boring. There was never a song I listened to with it that made me wish for more bass or treble. The UERM actually has great extension in the treble and bass. It wouldn't be called "reference" if it shorted the listener on frequency response. The Layla (which I haven't heard) may be more exciting, but from the descriptions here it seems like it's sound signature is like turning the brightness and contrast up on a HDTV. Nice to look at, but it still is what it is.

Lastly is the whole driver issue. 10 years ago, you could maybe make an argument that more drivers are better. Now, balanced armatures are becoming more specialized for audio. Yes, the UERM has 3 drivers, but take a look at the bass driver to see just how huge that thing is. It's going to move a heck of a lot more air than those smaller full range drivers will.

My advice to the person searching is to do your absolute best to find a means of audition before spending over a thousand dollars (or 2 grand in the case of the Layla) on something that is impossible to return. The second you pay for a custom IEM is the same second it starts to depreciate in value. Most people sell their customs for about half of the purchase price. Just something to keep in mind.

 
The bass on the UERMs is dialed out on purpose.  They are conservatively voiced for people who need a neutral monitor.  
 
If you are interested in hearing a full frequency dynamic in-ear audiophile reference monitor, the Layla is going to satisfy.  Having a/b compared my UERM to the Layla, the difference is massive.  
 
Still, as I said, I wouldn't want the Layla for my work projects.  It's not representative of what most people will hear at home.  As an engineer, I'd be mixing sound that was terrific on the Layla, but horrible and tinny on average speakers and headphones.  
 
But if I were kicking back in my hotel room listening to Blue Note jazz, the Layla would be my first choice.

 

[eke2k6]

   
While I was always pointing out the obvious flaws in Layla's design, bass is not one of them. It delivers both massive (if you want it) and highest quality bass. It's an an experience in itself, very different from the dynamic, planar or 'usual' BA bass.

 
 
I understand, I was just pointing out an example of a common misconception about BAs. Like people think the 3BAs of the UERM make it less capable than phones with more drivers. Not even just the UERM. IEMs like the FI-BA-SS with its single driver have more range than a lot of multi-BAs I've heard.
 
 
 

   
The bass on the UERMs is dialed out on purpose.  They are conservatively voiced for people who need a neutral monitor.  
 
If you are interested in hearing a full frequency dynamic in-ear audiophile reference monitor, the Layla is going to satisfy.  Having a/b compared my UERM to the Layla, the difference is massive.  
 
Still, as I said, I wouldn't want the Layla for my work projects.  It's not representative of what most people will hear at home.  As an engineer, I'd be mixing sound that was terrific on the Layla, but horrible and tinny on average speakers and headphones.  
 
But if I were kicking back in my hotel room listening to Blue Note jazz, the Layla would be my first choice.

 
 
This is another slight peeve I've developed over the years. Something being different does not make it better. For a long time, my absolute favorite IEM was the ASG-2. It's a very colored IEM, but extremely detailed. It's an absolute pleasure to listen to, but I'd never say it's better than the UERM because I like listening to it.
 
The UERM gives you what you put in. A master with more bass will come through with more bass on the UERM. Colored IEMs like the ASG-2 will automatically start with a certain signature, whereas a more neutral IEM will give you a clearer look into the actual mastering of a track. You mention the tracks you master on the Layla will sound flat on what you call "lesser" phones. Could this be because you equalize the master to the Layla's sound sig? It already has bigger bass and treble, so you don't need to add much more to taste. On the flip side, more neutral IEMs won't sound as "exciting"
 
This isn't a dig at you at all. Just that I've personally learned to differentiate between my sound sig preferences and what I consider to be better quality.

 

[Wyd4]

Wow. Just saw my first pair of Layla's in the wild.
And to think I thought my ref1too's were large.
Very eye catching. I love the design aesthetically.

 

[reeltime]

   
The UERM gives you what you put in. A master with more bass will come through with more bass on the UERM. Colored IEMs like the ASG-2 will automatically start with a certain signature, whereas a more neutral IEM will give you a clearer look into the actual mastering of a track. 

 
Sort of.  If you have a track with insane sub-bass, you won't hear it on the UERM, the driver just doesn't go that deep.  The imaging is below average, soundstage is narrow (closed design, 3 drivers can't deliver what other products can), treble is a bit rolled off compared to other products in that price range.  They're not a perfectly transparent headphone because the drivers don't extend the way other headphones do.  But they are flat, and that's a good thing for how I use them.
 
A comparison of the same track through the UERM, Layla, Angie, HD650, HD800 and HE-400, LCD-2, and HE1000 will reveal-- you get deeper bass and cleaner, more clear treble, better imaging and a wider soundstage on all of the other headphones.  As a UERM owner, I have at least 6 other headphones at home that sound better when it comes to listening to music.  But I use the UERM at work for many hours each day.  They have great isolation, and let me know what I'm really hearing.   
 
A flat response is a bit of a yawn when it comes to listening, when you have these other more dynamic and exciting products on the market. There's a place for the UERM, but UE also recognizes a listening crowd would prefer more "oomph", which is why they offer the UEPRM product.
 

  You mention the tracks you master on the Layla will sound flat on what you call "lesser" phones. Could this be because you equalize the master to the Layla's sound sig? It already has bigger bass and treble, so you don't need to add much more to taste. On the flip side, more neutral IEMs won't sound as "exciting"

 
I would NEVER want to master anything using the Layla, because what sounds great on a headphone with that kind of response will sound thin in the real world.  I'd be over-compensating for the stellar frequency response of that headphone when mixing.  You want a flat response when mixing, which is why the UERM was developed in the first place-- to give audio (and video) engineers and editors a quality portable custom monitor when on location.  
 
The most common complaint from users is that the UERM lacks the deep bass response of other in-ear monitors offer around that price range.  To which I answer: They're not designed for listening, they're designed for mastering.  If you want deep bass response and sparkling highs, you should choose a different product.