[Jap]

Hello. I'm a new member and I am interested in Layla, but today I saw a review at Cymbacavum dot com. I can't post the link because I'm a new member.

I'm worried because Layla is supposed to be a flat monitor but the review says it isn't.

Is Angie more flat or neutral than Layla? I thought Layla was the perfect studio in ear monitor.

The review says soundstage is good but not as open as others have described.

Please help because this is a very big investment for me.

Thank you.

I have never heard the Layla nor the Angie. However, there are a few things you should be aware of before you accept or reject any phone/IEM.
 
 
o Was the Layla reviewed at Cymbacavum actually fully broken in?
 
There are those who still question the break-in phenomena---as though it is just a mirage that many members experience. I have heard it happen with too many phones to deny it. And I am talking about a true physical breaking-in experience---not a psychological, user getting used to the phone break-in scenario. I would leave phones attached to sources & amps and check on how much the sound is changing over 24, 48, 72, 96, etc.  hours to see whether the sound has stabilized or not.
 
 
o Was the acoustical taste of the reviewer similar to your own taste?
 
People tend to hear differently---often not enough to make a real difference in general speech and normal sounds. However, musical taste can be much more refined. I know individuals that hate reference monitors and consider them boring. Yet those very reference media are what I live for. The amps/DAC's should be reference quality too so as not to throw the sound off too much. (I do not know if there is any reference media that is truly 100% flat. However, if it is good enough to perform professional sound engineering with, that should be good enough for most.)
 
o Was the reviewer's perception of openness similar to your own?
 
People throw around the terms of soundstage or (more relevant to headphones/IEM's) head-stage. However, how open is open to you? I have seen posters here actually describe the openness of phones/IEM's in dimensional units (e.g., feet, meters, etc). What may be a tight intimate soundstage to one may be a moderately sized venue to another.
 
 
Always bear in kind you are trying to see what you might experience through another user's ears/descriptions. Nothing can truly replace your own personal auditions. As exciting as some of the reviews have been here, my ears are the ultimate judge.

 

[angelom]

I have never heard the Layla nor the Angie. However, there are a few things you should be aware of before you accept or reject any phone/IEM.


o Was the Layla reviewed at Cymbacavum actually fully broken in?

There are those who still question the break-in phenomena---as though it is just a mirage that many members experience. I have heard it happen with too many phones to deny it. And I am talking about a true physical breaking-in experience---not a psychological, user getting used to the phone break-in scenario. I would leave phones attached to sources & amps and check on how much the sound is changing over 24, 48, 72, 96, etc.  hours to see whether the sound has stabilized or not.


o Was the acoustical taste of the reviewer similar to your own taste?

People tend to hear differently---often not enough to make a real difference in general speech and normal sounds. However, musical taste can be much more refined. I know individuals that hate reference monitors and consider them boring. Yet those very reference media are what I live for. The amps/DAC's should be reference quality too so as not to throw the sound off too much. (I do not know if there is any reference media that is truly 100% flat. However, if it is good enough to perform professional sound engineering with, that should be good enough for most.)

o Was the reviewer's perception of openness similar to your own?

People throw around the terms of soundstage or (more relevant to headphones/IEM's) head-stage. However, how open is open to you? I have seen posters here actually describe the openness of phones/IEM's in dimensional units (e.g., feet, meters, etc). What may be a tight intimate soundstage to one may be a moderately sized venue to another.


Always bear in kind you are trying to see what you might experience through another user's ears/descriptions. Nothing can truly replace your own personal auditions. As exciting as some of the reviews have been here, my ears are the ultimate judge.

Thank you for a long reply Jap.

I have Sennheiser hd800, Etymotic er-4s, Final Audio fi-ba-ss, Fitear Parterre and f111, Shure se846 and Atrio m5. Atrio has a lot of bass and I don't like it very much. Parterre has good bass and soundstage. se846 has good bass with a lot impact but I get tired quickly. I prefer HD800, er-4s, fi-ba-ss and f111. er-4s isn't comfortable but it has beautiful sound when fit is very good. I bought fi-ba-ss and f111 because they are more comfortable than er-4s but I prefer Etymotic sound.

I want to have one very good headphone and one or 2 very good iems only. If I like Layla I can sell my other iems. I don't want custom iem because I'm afraid fit will not be good and then it's very expensive and a lot of problems. It's sad because I cannot try iems where I live so I have to read a lot online.

Layla and Angie are universal iems and Layla is very expensive. Maybe Angie is very good but I want the best. I don't want to think I am near excellent, I want really excellent excellent.

The review of Cymbacavum is from a experienced person I think. Other people with experience here say different things. I know sometimes people talk very good things and not true really but I see opinions from people with a lot of experience.

 

[Jap]

Thank you for a long reply Jap.

I have Sennheiser hd800, Etymotic er-4s, Final Audio fi-ba-ss, Fitear Parterre and f111, Shure se846 and Atrio m5. Atrio has a lot of bass and I don't like it very much. Parterre has good bass and soundstage. se846 has good bass with a lot impact but I get tired quickly. I prefer HD800, er-4s, fi-ba-ss and f111. er-4s isn't comfortable but it has beautiful sound when fit is very good. I bought fi-ba-ss and f111 because they are more comfortable than er-4s but I prefer Etymotic sound.

I want to have one very good headphone and one or 2 very good iems only. If I like Layla I can sell my other iems. I don't want custom iem because I'm afraid fit will not be good and then it's very expensive and a lot of problems. It's sad because I cannot try iems where I live so I have to read a lot online.

Layla and Angie are universal iems and Layla is very expensive. Maybe Angie is very good but I want the best. I don't want to think I am near excellent, I want really excellent excellent.

The review of Cymbacavum is from a experienced person I think. Other people with experience here say different things. I know sometimes people talk very good things and not true really but I see opinions from people with a lot of experience.

I hear what you are saying. I am somewhat in the same boat as I need to audition both Angie & Layla before I pull the trigger (or not) on either. I have been really busy with things lately---with some of those things potentially life-changing. However, I am sure I can find an audio venue here in Atlanta, Georgia that can provide me with an audition.
 
Currently, I employ the discontinued Sennheiser HD-250 Linear II studio monitors as my 'do-everything' home phones. My modified Sennheiser HD-25-1 headphones are my choice for portable cans. Both are built to take a beating---as studio cans normally are---and have easily replaceable parts. I had Headphile replace virtually all of the original steel cabling inside the HD-25 with his own mellow silver cable for tighter bass, more up front mids (to fix the previously laid back mids), and sweeter highs. The HD-25's are popular for on-location monitoring even with that steel cable. I would think my dramatically improved modified version with the silver cable would be even better.
 
In any regard, I would love a reference IEM for all around usage, especially when I prefer to go ultra portable. I have a modest IEM that gets virtually no usage now---the bass is simply too weak for my taste. No review can trump what your own ears report, so if you are not in an ultra rush, look for possible head-fi meets or take advantage of sound stores in cities you visit of whatever reason.

 

[AUserName501]

Spoiler: Quote: angelom

Originally Posted by angelom /img/forum/go_quote.gif

Hello. I'm a new member and I am interested in Layla, but today I saw a review at Cymbacavum dot com. I can't post the link because I'm a new member.

I'm worried because Layla is supposed to be a flat monitor but the review says it isn't.

Is Angie more flat or neutral than Layla? I thought Layla was the perfect studio in ear monitor.

The review says soundstage is good but not as open as others have described.

Please help because this is a very big investment for me.

Thank you.

 

 
Nobody knows what "flat" means because it isn't a defined and there is no standard. There are many different target curves for frequency response but JH probably uses their own. Reference monitors will not allow you to hear it like it was in the studio. Music is mastered on speakers not headphones and no studio has such expensive headphones to test on anyway because they really don't need them. Will it sound as intended? No because there is no standard. What you should ask yourself is if you like the sound.
 
The problem with the Layla is that it is $1300 more expensive than the Angie and nobody has any idea what the frequency response is because nobody has measured it. The impressions I've read between the Angie and Laylla is that there is marginal difference and some prefer the Angie. There are also others out there like the 1964ears A12 and Noble Audio K10 which are also well liked.
 
Don't take what people say about soundstage too seriously. It isn't going to sound 3D and it isn't going to sound like speakers or give an out of head sound with music that isn't binaural. It isn't going to like a full-sized open headphone because your ear canals are blocked and the high noise isolation which gives a different listening experience.
 
I would recommend against spending so much money on CIEMs and would instead recommend buying the Universal versions used or buying a used full sized headphones like the Sennheiser HD800. You'll get an idea of what high end headphones are like and you can sell the headphones again at the same price you bought them used.

 

[angelom]

I hear what you are saying. I am somewhat in the same boat as I need to audition both Angie & Layla before I pull the trigger (or not) on either. I have been really busy with things lately---with some of those things potentially life-changing. However, I am sure I can find an audio venue here in Atlanta, Georgia that can provide me with an audition.

Currently, I employ the discontinued Sennheiser HD-250 Linear II studio monitors as my 'do-everything' home phones. My modified Sennheiser HD-25-1 headphones are my choice for portable cans. Both are built to take a beating---as studio cans normally are---and have easily replaceable parts. I had Headphile replace virtually all of the original steel cabling inside the HD-25 with his own mellow silver cable for tighter bass, more up front mids (to fix the previously laid back mids), and sweeter highs. The HD-25's are popular for on-location monitoring even with that steel cable. I would think my dramatically improved modified version with the silver cable would be even better.

In any regard, I would love a reference IEM for all around usage, especially when I prefer to go ultra portable. I have a modest IEM that gets virtually no usage now---the bass is simply too weak for my taste. No review can trump what your own ears report, so if you are not in an ultra rush, look for possible head-fi meets or take advantage of sound stores in cities you visit of whatever reason.

Thank you Jap again.

I listened to hd-25 many years ago and I thought it was very good but uncomfortable for me. hd800 is very comfortable like nothing but it isn't portable, I'm sure you know it. Your modified hd-25 sounds really really very good.

I'm very sorry I can't go to head-fi meets and sound stores where I live have very little headphones or iems of good quality. I will wait more impressions.

I am surprised because Cymbacavum review is not very good. It's good but not really. Maybe Layla has driver problem, one or 2 or 3 drivers not working very good? I'm nervous many many drivers in a small shell and crossover too.

 

[x RELIC x]

Thank you for a long reply Jap.

I have Sennheiser hd800, Etymotic er-4s, Final Audio fi-ba-ss, Fitear Parterre and f111, Shure se846 and Atrio m5. Atrio has a lot of bass and I don't like it very much. Parterre has good bass and soundstage. se846 has good bass with a lot impact but I get tired quickly. I prefer HD800, er-4s, fi-ba-ss and f111. er-4s isn't comfortable but it has beautiful sound when fit is very good. I bought fi-ba-ss and f111 because they are more comfortable than er-4s but I prefer Etymotic sound.

I want to have one very good headphone and one or 2 very good iems only. If I like Layla I can sell my other iems. I don't want custom iem because I'm afraid fit will not be good and then it's very expensive and a lot of problems. It's sad because I cannot try iems where I live so I have to read a lot online.

Layla and Angie are universal iems and Layla is very expensive. Maybe Angie is very good but I want the best. I don't want to think I am near excellent, I want really excellent excellent.

The review of Cymbacavum is from a experienced person I think. Other people with experience here say different things. I know sometimes people talk very good things and not true really but I see opinions from people with a lot of experience.

I'm not sure about that review. I just read it and I think that what he considers a recessed midrange is the result of an extended treble. My opinion is the Layla has been reported to have better extention than the Angie so next to the mids it may be slightly overwhelming. I became sceptical when the reviewer claimed they can hear a difference between 30Hz and even lower sub bass, so they may be exaggerating the recessed mids. Perhaps the reviewer just has different tastes, or much, much better ears than most. My Angie mids feel dead flat, not recessed or forward.

The Angie are not bass heavy and certainly no where near the bass impact of the SE846. I find the bass on the Angie to be very well rendered and balanced with the rest of the frequencies. My feeling is if you like the HD800 you'll like the Layla/Angie. What I gather is the Angie is like a Layla wth slightly less extention and slightly less bass impact when the dials are turned all the way up, at least that's how I justify not spending the extra cash! With the dial all the way down it certainly feels flat, flat, flat, but a bit boring for my tastes.

You also may want to check out the 1964 ears A12. They are getting great reviews and the new technology in them is very interesting.

 

[Jap]

Thank you Jap again.

I listened to hd-25 many years ago and I thought it was very good but uncomfortable for me. hd800 is very comfortable like nothing but it isn't portable, I'm sure you know it. Your modified hd-25 sounds really really very good.

I'm very sorry I can't go to head-fi meets and sound stores where I live have very little headphones or iems of good quality. I will wait more impressions.

I am surprised because Cymbacavum review is not very good. It's good but not really. Maybe Layla has driver problem, one or 2 or 3 drivers not working very good? I'm nervous many many drivers in a small shell and crossover too.

Don't get too hung up on a single review or two! After all, other people have their own individual tastes. There have been note-worthy reviewers who have provided outstanding reviews on either the Angie or Layla on this very thread. There have also been some negative reviews here and there on the Layla. With me being a detail freak, that iOS one of my primary concerns, along with good balance throughout the entire frequency range from subsonic lows to super sweet highs. Some place greater emphasis on soundstage than I. I have experienced the tight soundstage of Grados to the more expansive soundstages high end open phones. As long as the imaging is distinct enough where I can clearly place where the various instruments are, I'm happy enough.
 
I have listened to headphones and come away thinking all those who reviewed them previously where stark raving mad. I have also heard phones that were virtually perfectly in sync with previous reviews. Nevertheless, there is no better confirmation than one's own ears.
 
It would be nice if JHA would sponsor a loan program where their Siren Series UIEM's can be auditioned at home by Head-fiers. That is the ultimately ideal audition environment!!!

 

[angelom]

Nobody knows what "flat" means because it isn't a defined and there is no standard. There are many different target curves for frequency response but JH probably uses their own. Reference monitors will not allow you to hear it like it was in the studio. Music is mastered on speakers not headphones and no studio has such expensive headphones to test on anyway because they really don't need them. Will it sound as intended? No because there is no standard. What you should ask yourself is if you like the sound.

The problem with the Layla is that it is $1300 more expensive than the Angie and nobody has any idea what the frequency response is because nobody has measured it. The impressions I've read between the Angie and Laylla is that there is marginal difference and some prefer the Angie. There are also others out there like the 1964ears A12 and Noble Audio K10 which are also well liked.

Don't take what people say about soundstage too seriously. It isn't going to sound 3D and it isn't going to sound like speakers or give an out of head sound with music that isn't binaural. It isn't going to like a full-sized open headphone because your ear canals are blocked and the high noise isolation which gives a different listening experience.

I would recommend against spending so much money on CIEMs and would instead recommend buying the Universal versions used or buying a used full sized headphones like the Sennheiser HD800. You'll get an idea of what high end headphones are like and you can sell the headphones again at the same price you bought them used.

Thank you Dreyka.

Yes, flat is not easy definition in audio. I read some articles and sometimes I am confused with a lot of information.

Layla is $1400 more expensive than Angie not $1300! (sorry for correction) It's almost 150% more expensive! This is why I ask many questions and worry about review at Cymbacavum.

Maybe you read my posts quickly or my English is not very good because I said I have hd800 and I don't want custom iems, I want only universal iem. Maybe your idea is good about buy used iems but 2 experiences in the past with good sellers on eBay was not good so I'm nervous to do it here or other place. Warranty is important for me specially for complicated iem with 12 drivers. I will think about it. But Layla is not selling used now so I don't worry. K10 and A12 I don't know. I read a lot about K10 but I'm not sure I will like it. I like flat, reference and neutral even if definition is not easy.

 

[angelom]

I'm not sure about that review. I just read it and I think that what he considers a recessed midrange is the result of an extended treble. My opinion is the Layla has been reported to have better extention than the Angie so next to the mids it may be slightly overwhelming. I became sceptical when the reviewer claimed they can hear a difference between 30Hz and even lower sub bass, so they may be exaggerating the recessed mids. Perhaps the reviewer just has different tastes, or much, much better ears than most. My Angie mids feel dead flat, not recessed or forward.

The Angie are not bass heavy and certainly no where near the bass impact of the SE846. I find the bass on the Angie to be very well rendered and balanced with the rest of the frequencies. My feeling is if you like the HD800 you'll like the Layla/Angie. What I gather is the Angie is like a Layla wth slightly less extention and slightly less bass impact when the dials are turned all the way up, at least that's how I justify not spending the extra cash! With the dial all the way down it certainly feels flat, flat, flat, but a bit boring for my tastes.

You also may want to check out the 1964 ears A12. They are getting great reviews and the new technology in them is very interesting.

Thank you x RELIC x.

I read you posts about Angie and you make me interesting in Angie very much. But I don't want to buy Angie and after Layla, or the opposite buy Layla and after Angie!

Yes, I think sometimes I will like Angie more because I don't want bass monster or I I have always Layla bass completely low in dial. Maybe Angie is great option finally? I read some information about A12 and is very expensive too, more more expensive than Angie.

Is curious if Angie in future finally is more flat, reference or neutral than Layla with good extension and not have recessed mids. In that situation my ears and wallet will be very happy.

 

[shotgunshane]

I'm not sure about that review. I just read it and I think that what he considers a recessed midrange is the result of an extended treble. My opinion is the Layla has been reported to have better extention than the Angie so next to the mids it may be slightly overwhelming. I became sceptical when the reviewer claimed they can hear a difference between 30Hz and even lower sub bass, so they may be exaggerating the recessed mids. Perhaps the reviewer just has different tastes, or much, much better ears than most. My Angie mids feel dead flat, not recessed or forward.

The Angie are not bass heavy and certainly no where near the bass impact of the SE846. I find the bass on the Angie to be very well rendered and balanced with the rest of the frequencies. My feeling is if you like the HD800 you'll like the Layla/Angie. What I gather is the Angie is like a Layla wth slightly less extention and slightly less bass impact when the dials are turned all the way up, at least that's how I justify not spending the extra cash! With the dial all the way down it certainly feels flat, flat, flat, but a bit boring for my tastes.

You also may want to check out the 1964 ears A12. They are getting great reviews and the new technology in them is very interesting.

 
The differences in sub bass were tested using a tone generator.  Anyone can try this and hear for themselves.  It doesn't take special ears; patience maybe but that's about it. I used the tone generator here to see how close to the UERM bass the Layla was getting.  With music, they sounded awfully close with perhaps a hair more rumble down low from the Layla. Keep in mind this is with the Layla very near it's least bass setting.
 
Yes, the Layla can dial in +3db's more bass at 60z than the Angie. I didn't find the Layla's bass maxed out to be particularly noteworthy, so you are most likely not missing much with the Angie. 
 
I didn't find the Layla treble to be particularly any more extended than my UERM.  Both have very good extension.  The UERM is known to have a slightly laid back midrange. In direct A/B, I found Layla vocals to be slightly behind the UERM. I did however find the Layla treble to be very pleasing and very much aligned with my neutral leaning preferences.

 

[tumburu]

I read the review and I find it balanced and honest.
 
I think we need more of this kind of reviews, where the reviewer tells you where the specific problems of the headphone are in rendering specific areas of the spectrum. How beautiful sounds the bass or how real the vocal, we have plenty of that.
 
I will be receiving Layla tomorrow and I'll let you know if I hear what was written there. TBH, I was expecting them to have a bump in the treble, I noticed almost every 'flagship' headphone has that, so, not a big surprise here (only hoping it's not too big/disturbing) but I am surprised about the dip in the mids, since the mid drivers were advertised of being almost perfectly flat. We'll see.

 

[Idsynchrono_24]

  I read the review and I find it balanced and honest.
 
I think we need more of this kind of reviews, where the reviewer tells you where the specific problems of the headphone are in rendering specific areas of the spectrum. How beautiful sounds the bass or how real the vocal, we have plenty of that.
 
I will be receiving Layla tomorrow and I'll let you know if I hear what was written there. TBH, I was expecting them to have a bump in the treble, I noticed almost every 'flagship' headphone has that, so, not a big surprise here (only hoping it's not too big/disturbing) but I am surprised about the dip in the mids, since the mid drivers were advertised of being almost perfectly flat. We'll see.

I totally agree. [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.7019607843137254)]I currently have an Angie myself and having talked with SGS about[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.7019607843137254)] the Siren IEMs a bit, I found myself agreeing with his overall take, so it would seem that the two IEMs are voiced quite similarly, at least where bass and treble are concerned.  [/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)] [/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.7019607843137254)]The bass is quite flat when attenuated, perhaps flatter than the UERM, but the treble is clearly augmented with a spike at 7 khz. This leads to a sensation of very enhanced detail, but by the same token, it can sound unnatural with certain recordings, and I think it flirts with sibilance as well (I'll have to test it again, but I did listen to a song last night where the vocals were[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.7019607843137254)] on the cusp of sibilance[/color])[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.7019607843137254)]. With that said, I do feel that the treble does possess great weight and timbre. I also trust SGS' take on sound staging. I've heard some great IEMs that possess quite the spacious and even open feeling stage, but in the end, they don't compare as favorably to an open headphone[/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)] [/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]I think if you enjoy phones like the 1Plus2, K3003, UERM or HD800, you'll likely enjoy the Angie. Just be aware that it is a huge phone and you may run into some fitment issues. I trust that both Siren phones are technically excellent, but they aren't exactly stomping former rivals to the curb or anything. I always take massively effusive impressions with a grain of salt since I attribute that to buyer's high. It's okay, we're all prone to it, but no phone is unassailable, or without flaw, as even well respected flagships such as the HD800/SR009 are not without their share of criticism. Give it some time and hopefully a more levelheaded consensus will take shape. [/color]

 

[Jap]

  I read the review and I find it balanced and honest.
 
I think we need more of this kind of reviews, where the reviewer tells you where the specific problems of the headphone are in rendering specific areas of the spectrum. How beautiful sounds the bass or how real the vocal, we have plenty of that.
 
I will be receiving Layla tomorrow and I'll let you know if I hear what was written there. TBH, I was expecting them to have a bump in the treble, I noticed almost every 'flagship' headphone has that, so, not a big surprise here (only hoping it's not too big/disturbing) but I am surprised about the dip in the mids, since the mid drivers were advertised of being almost perfectly flat. We'll see.

I certainly will be looking forward to your impressions, especially after the IEM's are well burnt in. 

 

[x RELIC x]

The differences in sub bass were tested using a tone generator.  Anyone can try this and hear for themselves.  It doesn't take special ears; patience maybe but that's about it. I used the tone generator here to see how close to the UERM bass the Layla was getting.  With music, they sounded awfully close with perhaps a hair more rumble down low from the Layla. Keep in mind this is with the Layla very near it's least bass setting.

Yes, the Layla can dial in +3db's more bass at 60z than the Angie. I didn't find the Layla's bass maxed out to be particularly noteworthy, so you are most likely not missing much with the Angie. 

I didn't find the Layla treble to be particularly any more extended than my UERM.  Both have very good extension.  The UERM is known to have a slightly laid back midrange. In direct A/B, I found Layla vocals to be slightly behind the UERM. I did however find the Layla treble to be very pleasing and very much aligned with my neutral leaning preferences.

Apologies for implying anything in my previous comment. I just beleive that anything lower than 30Hz is very hard to distinguish in music, not test tones. I may have also misread what was pointed to as recessed mids vs slightly recessed. I re-read the review again and have a different perspective on it now. Thanks for the clarification.

Yes I'm excited about my new Angies but that doesn't make my take on them any less relevant. If I was not happy about them I'd say so, new toy and all.

 

[shotgunshane]

Agreed on 30hz and most music. As long as 40hz is strong enough, that covers most music just fine. There are exceptions but mostly those are rare, at least in my personal library.

Anyway, I'm seriously considering the universal Angie. While I found the Layla a mixed bag, the Angie certainly seems the better value proposition, assuming performance is close.