[skhan007]

I'm a musician and I have a modest home recording set up for guitars, drums, keys, etc. For years, I've been using a first gen Apogee Duet for recording, but also as a DAC for listening to ALAC files on my MacBook. The Apogee is limited to 96kHz/24 bit and I'm pretty convinced I want to buy a new/modern DAC and then a headphone amp, most likely. I had some HD800 headphones, but stepped away from the hobby for a while and sold them. I may buy another set or perhaps HD600, which I also liked a lot. Currently I have some OK sounding Sony MDR headphones.

I was thinking about what to get in a new DAC and someone recommended me the RME ADI-2, which after reading up, looks incredible. The Master Switch made it the number one pick, in fact. While I don't own any music in 768 kHz, DSD, etc., maybe someday I might? In other words, with an awesome DAC like this, would a newbie like myself even scratch the surface if I'm just streaming Tidal or ALAC files on my computer? I really like the EQ features on this unit and the built-in headphone amp, which might satisfy until I'm able to make a decision on a tube headphone amp in the future.

Curious if overbuying a DAC is a thing (clearly it must be, as I'm seeing some priced in the thousands) and if newbie like me should be looking at certain decision variables when narrowing down the choices. Any guidance is most appreciated.

 

[Roseval]

768 kHz

Nobody has
But modern USB receivers can easily stomach this rate.
Hence almost any modern DAC can do this.

The case for the ADI-2 is its stunning low distortion.
Add a lot of DSP options like EQ, etc and you have an excellent pre-amp/headphone amp at a decent price point.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...version-2-dac-and-headphone-amp-review.13379/
If you still want to record
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...yface-pro-fs-portable-interface-review.12313/

But I must admit, if one steps down a little, even modestly priced pro-interfaces perform pretty good.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/motu-m4-audio-interface-review.15757/

 

[HiFiHawaii808]

I'm a musician and I have a modest home recording set up for guitars, drums, keys, etc. For years, I've been using a first gen Apogee Duet for recording, but also as a DAC for listening to ALAC files on my MacBook. The Apogee is limited to 96kHz/24 bit and I'm pretty convinced I want to buy a new/modern DAC and then a headphone amp, most likely. I had some HD800 headphones, but stepped away from the hobby for a while and sold them. I may buy another set or perhaps HD600, which I also liked a lot. Currently I have some OK sounding Sony MDR headphones.

I was thinking about what to get in a new DAC and someone recommended me the RME ADI-2, which after reading up, looks incredible. The Master Switch made it the number one pick, in fact. While I don't own any music in 768 kHz, DSD, etc., maybe someday I might? In other words, with an awesome DAC like this, would a newbie like myself even scratch the surface if I'm just streaming Tidal or ALAC files on my computer? I really like the EQ features on this unit and the built-in headphone amp, which might satisfy until I'm able to make a decision on a tube headphone amp in the future.

Curious if overbuying a DAC is a thing (clearly it must be, as I'm seeing some priced in the thousands) and if newbie like me should be looking at certain decision variables when narrowing down the choices. Any guidance is most appreciated.

Not at all. Go for it. You'll love the sound with the headphones you want to pair with them especially since the RME ADI-2 has parametric EQ. Both the HD800S and HD600 respond well to EQ.

 

[silent-circuit]

Yeah, the only other DAC on my radar at/around the price point of the D90 was the ADI-2.

 

[go_vtec]

If you are strictly looking to upgrade the DAC (not ADC) and trying to buy a pair of headphones, I would suggest to figure out what headphones you will be buying first.

A DAC and its features can be very much depend on your use case and some DACs offer more bang for the bucks, than others. RME ADI-2 DAC is a very interesting product that allow you to equalize on the fly and use it as DAC/crossfeed/amp for most of headphones. If you buy a hard to drive headphones, then the headphone amp could be benefit from adding an amp later.

For a pure DAC, it is not as flexible as some more generic ones that offer MQA support to play master quality from Tidal or able to accommodate on the fly (automatic) playback format/frequency switching like D90S. It is pretty good for what it does as all in one amp, but some may argue it is not as "musical" as some multibit or R2R DACs at 30-50% more price tag. A Pro model will let you also record, but you will need to weigh in the benefits of such extra features at even higher price tag. It is overkill for most MDR headphones unless you really want to equalize on the fly. Honestly, I am using RME to provide an option to equalize on the fly for multiple headphones to justify my use case, but if you get a good pair of headphones and you don't need to eq. it, it may not be cost efficient investment as an end game DAC.

YMMV, DACs are important, but they are not as important as headphones or amp (only for those hard to drive headphones). For most of folks, it will be hard to hear the real differences between good to decent DACs without having a very good pair of headphones and possibly an amp (if DAC/amp cannot provide sufficient power to drive it). HD600 or HD650 is wonderful pair of headphones and HD800 is even more versatile and capable headphones. As far as RME's headphone amp section, I think it can drive all of them with reasonably decent results as an amp.

IMHO, if you are keen on getting only HD600, then I don't think you really will benefit from spending over a $1K on RME DAC. However, If you are buying to "future proof" your DAC and have more $ to spare for even better headphones/amp, I think it could make an interesting investment.

 

[HiFiHawaii808]

Yeah, the only other DAC on my radar at/around the price point of the D90 was the ADI-2.

Both good choices.

Here is a video that does a very nice job at comparing the pros and cons of both. The ADI-2 is very feature rich and includes and amp of its own. I am thinking about buying it for the parametric EQ. Currently, I have a Bifrost 2 and I love it.

 

[Redcarmoose]

I'm a musician and I have a modest home recording set up for guitars, drums, keys, etc. For years, I've been using a first gen Apogee Duet for recording, but also as a DAC for listening to ALAC files on my MacBook. The Apogee is limited to 96kHz/24 bit and I'm pretty convinced I want to buy a new/modern DAC and then a headphone amp, most likely. I had some HD800 headphones, but stepped away from the hobby for a while and sold them. I may buy another set or perhaps HD600, which I also liked a lot. Currently I have some OK sounding Sony MDR headphones.

I was thinking about what to get in a new DAC and someone recommended me the RME ADI-2, which after reading up, looks incredible. The Master Switch made it the number one pick, in fact. While I don't own any music in 768 kHz, DSD, etc., maybe someday I might? In other words, with an awesome DAC like this, would a newbie like myself even scratch the surface if I'm just streaming Tidal or ALAC files on my computer? I really like the EQ features on this unit and the built-in headphone amp, which might satisfy until I'm able to make a decision on a tube headphone amp in the future.

Curious if overbuying a DAC is a thing (clearly it must be, as I'm seeing some priced in the thousands) and if newbie like me should be looking at certain decision variables when narrowing down the choices. Any guidance is most appreciated.

You should simply concentrate on finding a DAC you believe is musical. My first DAC was a 2011 DACMagic Plus. And while it sounds nice it was always slightly too thin sounding to my ears. Not a big deal as I still enjoyed it. Seven years later I ended-up buying a bunch of equipment and tried to find more warmth. Still even now I never listen to big DSD files. I have one needle drop at 5.6 MHz.

It should be just a question of concentrating on the sound you like. And that in itself can be slightly or more than slightly confusing. I remember in the early days of DACs there was this one audiophile friend and he had an amazing system. He was used to his old DAC but the same company made a newer DAC that was just brighter. It was less musical but had more detail. To him it was the most confusing thing ever. He wasn’t sure if he should keep his old DAC or buy this new one.

Mostly if you forget about features this all comes down to emotion. The DAC that makes you feel the most connected emotionally to your music should be the one you go with.

I still have my old 2011 DACMagic Plus and it’s totally great still in many ways, so much so that I would maybe still be happy if it was all I had. My other gear is the Sony TA desktop and two Walkmans. While many think of getting a separate amp and not a DAC/amp combo, I use the TA and am pretty happy. Though keep in mind the power you may think you would want in the future. Meaning as example; the TA is actually not that powerful of a headphone amp. It powers the Sony MDR-Z1R, Z7 fine..and of course it powers IEMs.

Still if I wasn’t all done buying full-size headphones the power output may limit me? Meaning the TA does not come close to having enough power to drive the AKG k701 correctly. For that single headphone obviously someone could buy some high power headphone amp and still use the TA as a line out DAC.

But the most important thing for me was a more vinyl or tape sound in a DAC. Most of the tone most likely comes from the line out amp section of the DAC but every DAC sounds a little different.

DACs are actually completely like guitars. There are bright fast ones with no bottom end. There are slightly dull mahogany DACs. There are clear and balanced warm DACs, and thin and cold analytical DACs that seem to cut. Some DACs have a reverb body......some have fast decay. Some have that magic in musicality that helps you get involved whatever mood your in.

 

[m-i-c-k-e-y]

If we are talking about a RME RME ADI-2 as DAC/Amp, I think you need to invest on a separate headphone amp. Since its amp section is underpowered. And will not drive your HD800/HD600 well.

As a musician and home recording engineer, what are you after? Something that will complement your hobby? Or just for listening pleasure? Because it will affect what type of DAC/Amp you're gonna buy. A sytem that has fidelity and transparency? Or those types that "enhances" you're listening pleasure?

If its me, I will save a little and invest on RME ADI-2 Pro FS R. A bit overboard but its has a very good ADC for my home recording and a balanced headamp as well. And will not go for HD600 but for Focal Clear (a nice upgrade).

 

[skhan007]

If you are strictly looking to upgrade the DAC (not ADC) and trying to buy a pair of headphones, I would suggest to figure out what headphones you will be buying first.

A DAC and its features can be very much depend on your use case and some DACs offer more bang for the bucks, than others. RME ADI-2 DAC is a very interesting product that allow you to equalize on the fly and use it as DAC/crossfeed/amp for most of headphones. If you buy a hard to drive headphones, then the headphone amp could be benefit from adding an amp later.

For a pure DAC, it is not as flexible as some more generic ones that offer MQA support to play master quality from Tidal or able to accommodate on the fly (automatic) playback format/frequency switching like D90S. It is pretty good for what it does as all in one amp, but some may argue it is not as "musical" as some multibit or R2R DACs at 30-50% more price tag. A Pro model will let you also record, but you will need to weigh in the benefits of such extra features at even higher price tag. It is overkill for most MDR headphones unless you really want to equalize on the fly. Honestly, I am using RME to provide an option to equalize on the fly for multiple headphones to justify my use case, but if you get a good pair of headphones and you don't need to eq. it, it may not be cost efficient investment as an end game DAC.

YMMV, DACs are important, but they are not as important as headphones or amp (only for those hard to drive headphones). For most of folks, it will be hard to hear the real differences between good to decent DACs without having a very good pair of headphones and possibly an amp (if DAC/amp cannot provide sufficient power to drive it). HD600 or HD650 is wonderful pair of headphones and HD800 is even more versatile and capable headphones. As far as RME's headphone amp section, I think it can drive all of them with reasonably decent results as an amp.

IMHO, if you are keen on getting only HD600, then I don't think you really will benefit from spending over a $1K on RME DAC. However, If you are buying to "future proof" your DAC and have more $ to spare for even better headphones/amp, I think it could make an interesting investment.

Good thought- I'll check the RME ADI-2 thread and see what headphones people think pair well. The HD600 is 300 Ohms, I believe, so I'll look at the manual to see if that's an appropriate match. I am indeed thinking I'll evolve with my set up, so future-proof is a good way to consider what I'm planning. For example. I don't even own any music files above 44.1 kHz/16 bit right now and will either need to sign up for hi-res streaming services or start purchasing my favorite albums in hi-res. I want to utilize all the ADI-2 has to offer, if I purchase. It's probably a separate thread, but I'm interested to learn where people are getting their hi-res music.

You should simply concentrate on finding a DAC you believe is musical. My first DAC was a 2011 DACMagic Plus. And while it sounds nice it was always slightly too thin sounding to my ears. Not a big deal as I still enjoyed it. Seven years later I ended-up buying a bunch of equipment and tried to find more warmth. Still even now I never listen to big DSD files. I have one needle drop at 5.6 MHz.

It should be just a question of concentrating on the sound you like. And that in itself can be slightly or more than slightly confusing. I remember in the early days of DACs there was this one audiophile friend and he had an amazing system. He was used to his old DAC but the same company made a newer DAC that was just brighter. It was less musical but had more detail. To him it was the most confusing thing ever. He wasn’t sure if he should keep his old DAC or buy this new one.

Mostly if you forget about features this all comes down to emotion. The DAC that makes you feel the most connected emotionally to your music should be the one you go with.

I still have my old 2011 DACMagic Plus and it’s totally great still in many ways, so much so that I would maybe still be happy if it was all I had. My other gear is the Sony TA desktop and two Walkmans. While many think of getting a separate amp and not a DAC/amp combo, I use the TA and am pretty happy. Though keep in mind the power you may think you would want in the future. Meaning as example; the TA is actually not that powerful of a headphone amp. It powers the Sony MDR-Z1R, Z7 fine..and of course it powers IEMs.

Still if I wasn’t all done buying full-size headphones the power output may limit me? Meaning the TA does not come close to having enough power to drive the AKG k701 correctly. For that single headphone obviously someone could buy some high power headphone amp and still use the TA as a line out DAC.

But the most important thing for me was a more vinyl or tape sound in a DAC. Most of the tone most likely comes from the line out amp section of the DAC but every DAC sounds a little different.

DACs are actually completely like guitars. There are bright fast ones with no bottom end. There are slightly dull mahogany DACs. There are clear and balanced warm DACs, and thin and cold analytical DACs that seem to cut. Some DACs have a reverb body......some have fast decay. Some have that magic in musicality that helps you get involved whatever mood your in.

Fully agree!! As a lifelong musician, feel and inspiration are everything. Some guitars just deliver and are euphoric to play; especially through a proper tube amp! I have more guitars and amps than I can count right now, for this reason. I believe I'll follow suit in the hi-fi category as well. Thus, I may end up buying a new ADI-2 (against the better judgement of my wallet) from a dealer that has a good return policy. However, I'm quite certain from everything I'm reading and hearing that I'd be happy with it.

If we are talking about a RME RME ADI-2 as DAC/Amp, I think you need to invest on a separate headphone amp. Since its amp section is underpowered. And will not drive your HD800/HD600 well.

As a musician and home recording engineer, what are you after? Something that will complement your hobby? Or just for listening pleasure? Because it will affect what type of DAC/Amp you're gonna buy. A sytem that has fidelity and transparency? Or those types that "enhances" you're listening pleasure?

If its me, I will save a little and invest on RME ADI-2 Pro FS R. A bit overboard but its has a very good ADC for my home recording and a balanced headamp as well. And will not go for HD600 but for Focal Clear (a nice upgrade).

Thank you for the feedback. I thought the ADI-2 had an "extreme power" setting for high impedance headphones, but maybe I misunderstood. If the HD600/800 are not a match, then I'll find headphones that would be. My intended use: This would be as a hobby and not part of the home studio rig. Just for listening pleasure and likely that enhances (hence my fascination with loudness/eq etc. on this unit). Thanks for the suggestion on Focal Clear. More than I want to spend, but not that much more, so definitely a contender (maybe I'll buy used).


I greatly appreciate all of your feedback!! I'm reading the manual now, which is what I always do before any gear purchases. This piece of gear reminds me of my Lexicon PCM81, which is a very complicated piece of studio rack gear. Lots of menus and parameters to learn.

 

[silent-circuit]

A standard ADI-2 (there may be other models I'm not aware of?) headphone amp section is kind of trash. Get an ADI-2 and a tube amp.

 

[skhan007]

A standard ADI-2 (there may be other models I'm not aware of?) headphone amp section is kind of trash. Get an ADI-2 and a tube amp.

Understood- the one that was recommended was the ADI-2 DAC FS:

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ADI2DACFS--rme-adi-2-dac-fs-2-channel-da-converter

I’m definitely considering a tube headphone amp as well.

 

[surfgeorge]

Curious if overbuying a DAC is a thing (clearly it must be, as I'm seeing some priced in the thousands) and if newbie like me should be looking at certain decision variables when narrowing down the choices. Any guidance is most appreciated.

Investment in a good DAC/Amp is absolutely worth it IME, and the RME ADI-2 Pro seems to be an excellent choice.
For years I have been using a $500 CHORD Mojo with my $100..250 IEMs and headphones and now I use the $2200 Hugo 2 with my $1000 IEMs and Headphones.
the DAC makes a really big difference in the detail, separation, soundstage and musicality.

Go for the bets you can afford then you will get the best out of your headphones and be prepared for future upgrades.

 

[castleofargh]

DACs are tools of high fidelity using very standardized inputs and outputs. Even bad ones will do better than the very best headphones for basically any measurable variable. So while I see no reason to discourage getting good DACs, because good is good. I personally wouldn't consider a new DAC for sound change unless I felt like I had reached a dead end with almost everything else.

 

[surfgeorge]

DACs are tools of high fidelity using very standardized inputs and outputs. Even bad ones will do better than the very best headphones for basically any measurable variable. So while I see no reason to discourage getting good DACs, because good is good. I personally wouldn't consider a new DAC for sound change unless I felt like I had reached a dead end with almost everything else.

Good that you are adding your perspective.

IMO there are 2 disctinctly different schools of thought, and the more wide spread seems to rank the influence of the different elements of the chain on SQ roughly like:
1. headphones by a big margin
2. amplifier
3. DAC (little influence)

Then there are others (typically with higher end gear) who consider different elements roughly equally important.
20-30 years ago I fell squarely into the first category, today, with much more experience, it has almost changed to the opposite.
I used to play the piano and listen to a lot of life acoustic and classic concerts, and I am sensitive to correct timbre and timing, attack, decay, overtones etc.
And I found that I quickly lose interest in listening to music with DACs that don't get these things right.

I have the theory that the role of the DAC becomes more important the more you listen to recordings with little to no sound processing, the more your hearing is trained with actual live music, in shor, the more sensitive you are to the accurate reconstruction of the signal.

If you are listening to heavily processed recordings or even computer generated music I believe the DAC will have less influence.
The same applies to listening to LQ recordings, lossy files, and to some extent also "untrained" hearing.

In short - for some the DAC will play a minor role in the system, for others it will play a big role.
Maybe these thoughts help with your decision.

 

[castleofargh]

I used to play the piano and listen to a lot of life acoustic and classic concerts, and I am sensitive to correct timbre and timing, attack, decay, overtones etc.

I don't expect a DAC to do much about those. FR, timing, or the various consequences of not getting them right, will tend to be measured a few magnitudes below what will be found out of any transducer. And any 2 transducers will show variation way bigger than those found between 2 DACs for almost all if not all variables. So even disregarding what's audible and what isn't, I would still have no reason to see the choice of a DAC as being on the same level as picking a new headphone.

TBH, being unable to tell complete BS statement about the sound of a DAC, apart from a genuine testimony online, really doesn't help my almost congenital skepticism on the subject.