[aaron313]

Don't forget randerson3024, Elephas, Sleestack... P03/D03

 

[aaron313]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreadhead /img/forum/go_quote.gif I will never understand this logic that your source must cost 5 grand to live up to balanced amps. I have a DAC1 and there is nothing mid-end about it except the price. Every review I've read by professionals complains of too much detail and no warmth/too digital (no filtering). These are not things that would give the amp less to work with but just things that are a matter of preference. So I'm not sure what supposed problems it's going cause unless we're talking "microsonics" and other stuff I put no weight in at all. The fact is that the DAC1 is about the price point of the DAC and ADC that they use at a lot of mastering studios so I'm a little confused that if the recording engineer uses it it can't be good enough for the rest of us. I honestly think beyond this point it's down to preference on the output stage and filtering (digital or analog).

Hmm, it's funny you mention reviews. I have read plenty that start off with "Droooool....." and the like. I plan on upgrading my DAC, because it's silly, IMO, to have a $1k DAC feeding a $4.5k amp and $2.4k headphones. Yes, I will be able to live with it, and it will still be highly enjoyable, but to think that my setup is living up to its potential would be idiocy on my part. If you are happy with your DAC1, then so be it. But there is a reason why the mantra is "source first." I have experienced that the source sets the tone, and the amp fleshes things out nicely. I want things to start off well, and that might cost $5k+.

 

[pageman99]

And I'll add that the more I learn and the more I listen the more I've come to believe that source is the single most important component in the chain.

Back on topic. I've said it before, but I'll restate that in my system I will say that balanced is a 20% improvement over single ended for the Senn 650's. Other hp's will have to wait for my beta to return home from its current odyssey. (it's been away more than it's been at home) 8-(

Do I have graphs and charts? Nope. Can I scientifically back up this statement? Nope.

Nonetheless 20% is the number my ears tell me. Hope this helps folks out there trying to decide whether/how to spend their hard earned money.

 

[cafe zeenuts]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pageman99 /img/forum/go_quote.gif And I'll add that the more I learn and the more I listen the more I've come to believe that source is the single most important component in the chain. Back on topic. I've said it before, but I'll restate that in my system I will say that balanced is a 20% improvement over single ended for the Senn 650's. Other hp's will have to wait for my beta to return home from its current odyssey. (it's been away more than it's been at home) 8-( Do I have graphs and charts? Nope. Can I scientifically back up this statement? Nope. Nonetheless 20% is the number my ears tell me. Hope this helps folks out there trying to decide whether/how to spend their hard earned money.

I agree with you man source should always come first. So many people here on head-fi spend big money on amps but they use $0 to $1000 range sources its crazy.

I'm going to go balanced soon but i this stage cant really decide which amp to buy.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron_Dreamer /img/forum/go_quote.gif The highest performance is only achievable via balanced drive, whether for headphones or speakers. However, it is not worth spending the money to have a balanced headphone amp, and recabling your headphones for balanced drive, unless you can afford to spend at least $3.5k+ on a digital source (I'm not familiar with analog gear enough to say where that point comes in there). Reason being, that you will gain a higher level of sound quality, IMO, with a high-end source and single-ended amp, than you will a mid-level source (i.e. Benchmark DAC1, Rega Saturn, etc.) and a balanced amp. Of course the ultimate setup is balanced high-end source plus balanced high end amp, but alas, the $$$$.

Strange thing is that some SE designs outperform balanced designs. Look at the high end level where loads of high end setups are not running balanced!

The main reason balanced is used is to lower the noise on long runs of cables, as in studio's is used. For 60cm or 1 meter IC, it is absolutely not necessary!

By the way, there are at least 4 so calles balanced designs, the only real balanced design is where the ground is at the transformer, this is the only true balanced version! All the others are just fake and won't gain anything. Semi balanced etc, it is called.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by greggf /img/forum/go_quote.gif dreadhead sez: "The fact is that the DAC1 is about the price point of the DAC and ADC that they use at a lot of mastering studios so I'm a little confused that if the recording engineer uses it it can't be good enough for the rest of us." That's what you'd like to believe, because if you believe it, you won't have to spend more money on a better source! I just read some liner notes to an SACD transfer of an RCA Living Stereo recording from the late 1950's, and they point out that they used, among other things, $20,000 Siltech cables. I somehow doubt that they used a Benchmark DAC1. Are the recording engineers who are remastering these historic recordings suffering from the "placebo effect"? Or would the Benchmark be too "mid-fi" (or, actually, low-fi) for their work? To state, as you do, that "a lot of recording studios" use things like the DAC1 is possibly true. (And by the way, please document that. Can you? Or are you merely gassing off?) But do you want shi**y recordings done with shi**y gear at shi**y mastering studios, and played back on shi**y mid-fi home equipment? Or would you like to aspire to something better than that? Get out your wallet. Sources matter. More than you want them to.

Source is most important, since that is your input. Crap in, is still crap out.

Although good amps make the music more bearable, good sources and good recordings make it so much better.

But what is a good source, some older cdp's are still up to notch and still sound better then most cheaper new cdp's. Most 24 bit cdp's use 20 bit internally, so there's not really that much gained.

All is relative, a good matched relative cheap system can sound much better then a badly matched high end system, high end parts alone don't make a good system. It only let you hear the mismatches easier!

Even if you have loads of money, common sense is still necesarry to come to the best setup.

Also, a maxed out good system can sound better then a standard high end system.

Loads of so called high end stuff still use cheap components inside!

 

[4N6]

Lot's of great stuff in this thread! My experience is that, all else being equal (namely the source (AR Ref CD7), amp (B-52), brand/type/length of headphone cable, and headphone) that going balanced with the HD650's did make a tangible, positive benefit. I switched from single-ended Equinox to balanced Equinox and when using the balanced, the bass was tighter, the soundstage became deeper, and there was more ambience/decay perceivable. No, the changes were not extraordinary, but still a definite improvement. I also agree that not all headphones will share the same amount of perceivable benefit, but at least from a theoretical standpoint, they should all improve to some extent due to better control of the drivers.

Also, I must agree that the source is of great importance. The amp and headphones can never make a cruddy signal better. All they can do in an ideal sense is pass on the cruddy signal with the least amount of alteration. So, if you want to hear what is REALLY on your CD's/LP's, investing in a good player is paramount. Remember "garbage in/garbage out" definitely applies to music reproduction.

Now for a question to those who are smarter than me about tube amps. When considering single-ended triodes (like the 300B), I am under the impression that one cannot build a "balanced" amp using these without a phase-splitter. Is this correct?

 

[Ricey20]

I think the biggest benefit of going balanced is the reduced noise too, at least it is for me. My room AC isn't the greatest and since I'm using my computer as a source on the same circuit it creates a lot of noise that I hear even with all my SE headphones. With my balanced Ed9s though I hear absolute blackness.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricey20 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think the biggest benefit of going balanced is the reduced noise too, at least it is for me. My room AC isn't the greatest and since I'm using my computer as a source on the same circuit it creates a lot of noise that I hear even with all my SE headphones. With my balanced Ed9s though I hear absolute blackness.

My setup is SE and the background is pitchblack. I also read reports where the SE sounded better then the balanced...it all depends..........

 

[Ricey20]

Yep all depends, when I was using my SE cans whenever my comp did something intensive i'd get static and gurgling noises lol

 

[Akabeth]

I don't know why but I'm quite convinced that my next move a few years down the road will be a beefy balanced tube amp.

 

[chesebert]

Aren't you doubling the circuit noise going with Balanced, not withstanding the eliminating of EMI/RFI interference induced by the cabling since the differences cancel each other out.

IMHO, the major benefits of balanced is the increased slew-rate and driving power.

 

[Uncle Erik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chesebert /img/forum/go_quote.gif Aren't you doubling the circuit noise going with Balanced, not withstanding the eliminating of EMI/RFI interference induced by the cabling since the differences cancel each other out. IMHO, the major benefits of balanced is the increased slew-rate and driving power.

That's pretty much how I see it, too. But I wanted to point out that you can get much the same performance by bridging two amps, or even having an active ground plane like in the M^3 or a 3 channel Beta22.

Don't much agree with the source first mantra, either. Since dollars (for whatever reason) figure heavily into whether a source is quality or not, I'll put out that my vinyl setup retails somewhere north of $12k. That, fed through the Zana and into the crap Sony headphones (used as a dummy load for amp building) sounds terrible. A RS-1 jacked into an iPod with lossy files sounds surprisingly good.

Even five figures of equipment won't make a bad transducer sound good.

The other side of the coin is the amp. A transducer does nothing without one. So if you have a good transducer, you need to power it fully. What good is a perfect signal fed into something that mangles it before getting to the transducer? You lose all the benefit of the source at that point.

The other fallacy is that there's a huge difference between sources. There is some, for sure, but even cheap CD players put out good numbers for distortion and other important specs. There was more variation 30 years ago with sources, but even a $50 CD player is pretty accurate today. The other side to this is the advance of digital technology. A $6k CD player from 6-7 years ago isn't worth much today and can probably be bested by a $1k player from 2008. That trend will continue.

 

[bizkid]

I wasnt impressed with any balanced headphone to date, the first time i heard for example the HD650 in balanced config was 2 years ago which didnt impress me back then. I came back to the Sennheiser one more time about a year ago to try it again but it didnt work out. While balanced operation improved on some attributes it also added coloration in a way i felt was off compared to their single ended operation.

An interesting story i read a few weeks ago: Bernie Grundman from B.G. Mastering always changes all his studio gear from balanced to single ended operation because to his ears the balanced operation introduces colorations to the signal. Completely different story than balancing headphones but anyway interesting.

 

[Audio-Omega]

So going from the balanced output of a cd player to the balanced input of an amp is not exactly balanced ? A dac in between would be ?