If you still love Etymotic ER4, this is the thread for you...
May 12, 2013 at 3:29 PM Post #1,321 of 19,249
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Personally, I never found ER4S to be harsh to my ears, even though I am sensitive to the presence region too. I actually found ER4P harsher sounding in the highs. Make sure you get are getting a deep, tight seal - the Etys absolutely need it to produce proper sound. Also, make sure that you are using either the triple flanges, or other tips of similar length, like the long foams. With shorter tips, even if you insert the IEMs deep, the seal may still not be sufficient from my experience. Although it depends on your ear canal size and shape I suppose. If you have small ear canals, then short tips may work fine for you, but if you find the sound harsh, it is more likely than not that you are not getting the proper seal. Other possible causes of harsh sound include issues with the source or amp, excessive volume levels and bad recording quality.


I'm getting a good and deep fit with the triple flanges. It isolates very well and I get plenty of bass.
 
I'm hearing peaky upper mids and lower treble in comparison to my LFF Paradox headphones which are my neutral reference headphones. I created my EQ based on the Paradox sound and the adjustments are pretty much what you see in the ER4P vs ER4S graph (5db drop at 2.5Khz and 7db drop at 8khz).
 
May 12, 2013 at 3:36 PM Post #1,322 of 19,249
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I'm getting a good and deep fit with the triple flanges. It isolates very well and I get plenty of bass.
 
I'm hearing peaky upper mids and lower treble in comparison to my LFF Paradox headphones which are my neutral reference headphones. I created my EQ based on the Paradox sound and the adjustments are pretty much what you see in the ER4P vs ER4S graph (5db drop at 2.5Khz and 7db drop at 8khz).

 
The thing is - ER4S was meant to sound almost flat when inserted properly. You should not hear excessive peaks with them if you are getting a good fit, unless it's the recordings, the volume is too high, something is wrong with your source, or you have unusually high sensitivity at those frequency regions. I know, that my hearing has a normal 5-7 db boost in the presence region, but maybe you have more than that. Or perhaps, it could just be your listening habits - you got too used to headphones that don't have the proper emphasis on the presence region. Are you sure that your Paradox has a neutral response at those frequencies?
 
May 12, 2013 at 3:53 PM Post #1,323 of 19,249
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The thing is - ER4S was meant to sound almost flat when inserted properly. You should not hear excessive peaks with them if you are getting a good fit, unless it's the recordings, the volume is too high, something is wrong with your source, or you have unusually high sensitivity at those frequency regions. I know, that my hearing has a normal 5-7 db boost in the presence region, but maybe you have more than that. Or perhaps, it could just be your listening habits - you got too used to headphones that don't have the proper emphasis on the presence region. Are you sure that your Paradox has a neutral response at those frequencies?

The Paradox is designed to sound completely neutral. The Paradox sound is what my ears are most used to.
 
My source is a Leckerton UHA-6s.MKii DAC/amp which shouldn't be altering the frequency response.
 
I can link some songs where I hear the most harshness for you to listen to if you want.
 
May 12, 2013 at 3:54 PM Post #1,324 of 19,249
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The Paradox is designed to sound completely neutral. The Paradox sound is what my ears are most used to.
 
My source is a Leckerton UHA-6s.MKii DAC/amp which shouldn't be altering the frequency response.
 
I can link some songs where I hear the most harshness for you to listen to if you want.

 
Based on this graph, the Paradox is a bit heavy on the lower mids and a a bit recessed in the presence region actually. That, plus the soft, Ortho sound make them very different from the Etys in character. The armatures in the Etys are much more aggressive sounding by nature with a much sharper attack  (possibly too sharp), so going from the smooth, soft, somewhat mid-centric Ortho sound to the brutally honest, flat ER4S is what probably gives you the impression that ER4S is too harsh. Try listening solely to ER4S for a few days and then switch back to the Paradox.
 
You can try ER4P, but I think that it is noticeably inferior in sound quality to the ER4S and actually sounds more forward and harsher in the treble. Do try them though - I know that many people do prefer the sound of ER4P. Also, try the HF series if you can - they are even tamer in response that the ER4P and don't have the harshness of the ER4P either. They also have a more modern, more ergonomic design and can be worn over the ear quite easily, allowing you to lose the annoying cable noise. Differences in sound quality between the ER4 and HF series are quite small and not really worth the price difference, although the ER4 does sound a bit more natural in the mids, slightly more extended at both ends, and a little more dynamic than the HF series.
 
May 12, 2013 at 5:06 PM Post #1,325 of 19,249
That 2.5kHz hump is often a bit much for me, I'd have to admit. I EQ it down by 4dB, which sounds great.
 
Also, I don't know if it's the monitors or my ear sensitivity, but the treble on the right piece sounds louder than on the left by about 2-3dB, which makes things sound a bit off towards the right (if I'm really paying attention to it). At 8kHz, the right piece is louder by at least 8dB, which is huge. Thankfully, foobar2k has a plugin equalizer that has a stereo mode, allowing me to balance everything out.
 
May 12, 2013 at 6:00 PM Post #1,326 of 19,249
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That 2.5kHz hump is often a bit much for me, I'd have to admit. I EQ it down by 4dB, which sounds great.
 
Also, I don't know if it's the monitors or my ear sensitivity, but the treble on the right piece sounds louder than on the left by about 2-3dB, which makes things sound a bit off towards the right (if I'm really paying attention to it). At 8kHz, the right piece is louder by at least 8dB, which is huge. Thankfully, foobar2k has a plugin equalizer that has a stereo mode, allowing me to balance everything out.

 
I think that may be pressure build-up. I often experience that with sealed iems in my left ear, forcing me to resort to foam tips. I use the yellow foams from the Atrio MG7 tip set, or the shure olives. I squish the foams first before inserting. That way, I'm not pushing air into my ear canal.
 
May 12, 2013 at 7:08 PM Post #1,327 of 19,249
Everyone has a different HRTF so the ER4S won't sound right for everyone, especially in that 2.5kHz region.
 
May 12, 2013 at 7:46 PM Post #1,328 of 19,249
There's a few things that I've found over time if it helps.
 
Seal isn't everything.  It is absolutely critical, but there are other factors just as critical, at least in my experience.  For instance, I need to pull my lobe up, open my jaw a bit and rotate the tips as I insert them as though I'm screwing them into my ears.  I need to do this in a very exaggerated way so that the rotating prevents ANY buildup of positive OR negative ear pressure.  If I just push them in I get pressure pushing into the ear.  If I pull on my lobe and open my jaw, sometimes the tip will go in, but air will get pulled into the flanges and when I let go it creates a slight vacuum effect with pressure sucking my ear a bit.  In either of these cases, I might hear bass, but the overall frequency curve is off and things sound hollow or harsh.
 
By rotating them a lot while inserting them the air pressure stays equalized and the sound is correct.  However, they also need to be very deep.  Etymotic said they usually sound better as you get deeper.  This is very true in my case.  Even with the triple flanges fully inserted to the depth most people have photos of, I don't get the full low end response.  When I push them in very deeply, to the point that the cord is against my ear, the bass response is more and flat with the treble.  In fact, it compares almost equally with my pfe112 which should have 6db or so more low bass.  This is why I think a lot of measurements and people think they lack bass. They aren't bassy, but they are very neutral bass, when and only when you have them very deep and "properly" sealed.
 
Beyond that, they definitely will sound harsh to some people that are used to bassy or mid heavy phones.  Ironically, a lot of supposedly "high end" earphones are very lacking in real high treble and are bassier and more mid centric than a true neutral response.  So for a lot of people the er4s will sound very treble centric.  However, when you achieve the proper sound they are very flat.  So, I suggest everyone listen to them for a while without comparing anything and start at low volumes and move up as you are comfortable.  They are so revealing you don't need them as loud as other phones sometimes get played.
 
As for the er4p.  From my listening experience they are basically an er4s with rolled of treble.  This might give the impression that the mid/treble is boosted, but I think it is more that the high treble is lacking.  They sounded identical otherwise to me.  This makes sense, because all the 75ohm adapter does is change the response curve to have a flat treble area instead of rolled off.  I still found the er4p to be superior to a lot of earphones, but I could never take them over the er4s personally.  I want studio monitor sound that is reference quality, and the er4s is exactly that for me. :)
 
Lastly, some people simply don't like studio reference "flat" sound.  There's nothing wrong with that.  It doesn't mean your earphone are bad or the etys are bad.  Some people like to have more bass or more treble or more mids or any combination of traits.  That's fine.  You may just want a different set.  But with any earphone, I'd give them a good amount of time.  Most earphone companies will tell you to break in the tips for a week, because even that affects the sounds.  As the silicon gets softer they mold easier to your ear shape.  Just some ideas...
 
May 12, 2013 at 8:16 PM Post #1,330 of 19,249
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Has anyone compared an ER4PT &75ohm adapter with ER4S? Do they sound identical..........NO Difference at all?
 
So in other words ER4PT + adapter = ER4S

 
Theoretically, they should be identical. However, some believe that the extra impedance adapter added to the P version causes extra distortion that audibly degrades sound quality. I am not sure if it's true or not, as I only have experience with the ER4P + adapter. I find that the adapter makes ER4P sound quite a bit better and I don't hear any distortion personally. I think it may also depend on the quality of the adapter. Make sure you get one with a gold plated plug, as it is apparently higher quality and more durable.
 
May 12, 2013 at 8:36 PM Post #1,331 of 19,249
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So making their product even more affordable is a bad thing? I don't understand your logic.
 
The ER4 has had the fairly priced $300 MSRP since forever. It would be bad "propaganda" if they took the ER4 internals, made the exterior pretty, threw marketing buzz-words around, paid head-fi to make a thread about them, and then rose the MSRP to a grand while trying to convince head-fiers it's worth the cost.
 
But that's not what they did. What they did was make the ER4 even more affordable, by cutting some features not all consumers needed. Pretty admirable actually.

 
ER4P was $199 forever.  So you are okay with them adding a certificate and charging $299?  It's a yes or no answer.
 
There is no such thing as "matching drivers."  It's marketing mumbo jumbo.  Drivers are already purchased to tight specifications with any differentiations undecernable to the ear.  What is the point?
 
May 12, 2013 at 8:46 PM Post #1,332 of 19,249
The HF series are indeed very close to ER4 in sound quality and definitely the better value. However, I do feel that ER4 has the upper hand in midrange realism, treble and bass extension, dynamics and clarity. The differences can be small at times, but at other times they are quite apparent. It depends on the source and music. I think ER4 just sounds more accurate overall, even the P version.
 
May 12, 2013 at 9:56 PM Post #1,333 of 19,249
ER4P was $199 forever.  So you are okay with them adding a certificate and charging $299?  It's a yes or no answer.

There is no such thing as "matching drivers."  It's marketing mumbo jumbo.  Drivers are already purchased to tight specifications with any differentiations undecernable to the ear.  What is the point?


It's not marketing, it's actually done [vsonic and westone is another example] and proven by 3rd parties. The point is to have a well calibrated iem as its used for reference. channel matching is discernible, the ear naturally favors the channel with more db, this allows to minimize this. Though performance wise it's by no means a huge leap, again it's for a reference, it's the reason the ER4 series is used as a reference for measurements
 
May 12, 2013 at 11:37 PM Post #1,335 of 19,249
I've never been able to hear a difference. Especially with a universal where a generic tip + ones ear anatomy would be far more prevalent as far as a channel imbalance.


Yes straight from Knowles these drivers or a twfk differ by more than 1db IME, etymotic brings it down to below 1. Not significant, but they're honest about what the difference is, unlike a manufacture with false claims
 

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