[ShangriLa]

I'm looking to add mic-in and headphone-out capability to my computer desktop 2-channel system. After some research, audio interface seems to serve my needs.

Its mic-in part should have very good audio quality, but what about its headphone-amp and DAC part, how do they compare to similarly priced DAC/headphone amp?

I know for audio interface, I'm paying for a lot of things I dont need. But for under $200, I can get a pretty decent one and the more expensive ones seems to only add more input/output. I have no way of knowing whether the DAC and headphone amp are actually better.

From what I have researched, I should be able to skip the AI DAC and use my current DAC in my main computer listening system. But I hope it should be a solid upgrade to my laptop internal DAC when I'm in the office. Schiit Modi 3 level at the very least for a sub-$200 audio interface (Focusrite scarlett/Motu M2)?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I'm looking to add mic-in and headphone-out capability to my computer desktop 2-channel system. After some research, audio interface seems to serve my needs.

Its mic-in part should have very good audio quality, but what about its headphone-amp and DAC part, how do they compare to similarly priced DAC/headphone amp?

I wouldn't worry about the DAC but the headphone amp stages tend to have high output impedance, and the cheaper ones don't have a lot of voltage either so they're not as good for driving high impedance headphones with if you want to crank it up a bit for some tracks.

I know for audio interface, I'm paying for a lot of things I dont need. But for under $200, I can get a pretty decent one and the more expensive ones seems to only add more input/output. I have no way of knowing whether the DAC and headphone amp are actually better.

Depends on which more expensive ones you're referring to. If it's for example the same series then yeah all you're getting is doubling or tripling the inputs and/or outputs.

If you get a really good one from a series that just happens to not have a cheaper, leaner variant, you might get one with more power. But at best you'd have around a 10ohm output impedance and by "more power" I mean "probably barely enough for a 32ohm, 93dB/1mW headphone or 300ohm, 96dB/1mW headphone at a price where you could have purchased a Meier or Violectric, or a good Schiit for less.

If you don't need a mic input to allow you to use a mic that doesn't cut out the lower frequencies and makes you sound weird then don't use the interface.

If you do and want a better amp circuit on the headphone output you can always use a cheap interface with a higher sensitivity mic as the input device then have a good DAC-HPamp as your output device.

From what I have researched, I should be able to skip the AI DAC and use my current DAC in my main computer listening system. But I hope it should be a solid upgrade to my laptop internal DAC when I'm in the office. Schiit Modi 3 level at the very least for a sub-$200 audio interface (Focusrite scarlett/Motu M2)?

The Modi3 has no internal headphone amp circuit and requires a separate amp to drive a headphone.

 

[PurpleAngel]

Schiit Fulla 3

 

[ShangriLa]

I wouldn't worry about the DAC but the headphone amp stages tend to have high output impedance, and the cheaper ones don't have a lot of voltage either so they're not as good for driving high impedance headphones with if you want to crank it up a bit for some tracks.




Depends on which more expensive ones you're referring to. If it's for example the same series then yeah all you're getting is doubling or tripling the inputs and/or outputs.

If you get a really good one from a series that just happens to not have a cheaper, leaner variant, you might get one with more power. But at best you'd have around a 10ohm output impedance and by "more power" I mean "probably barely enough for a 32ohm, 93dB/1mW headphone or 300ohm, 96dB/1mW headphone at a price where you could have purchased a Meier or Violectric, or a good Schiit for less.

If you don't need a mic input to allow you to use a mic that doesn't cut out the lower frequencies and makes you sound weird then don't use the interface.

If you do and want a better amp circuit on the headphone output you can always use a cheap interface with a higher sensitivity mic as the input device then have a good DAC-HPamp as your output device.




The Modi3 has no internal headphone amp circuit and requires a separate amp to drive a headphone.

Thanks. According to this video the Motu M2 has the best headphone amp as a budget AI. Just not sure how good it is compared to 'normal' headphone amps.

So you talked about audio interface's (in)ability to drive headphones, which seems to be an important aspect of evaluating an amp. But if the interface can provide sufficient power, how good is its sound quality. In other words, how good of a headphone it can serve before bottlenecking the overall sound quality? A 200-dollar headphone? I'm not much of a headphone person though do have a semi-serious desktop stereo (5k) for my computer so just curious.

Yeah the Schiit Modi is a DAC only. I was referring to its DAC quality compared to interfaces.

Another solution is to get a USB mic so that I dont have to have a DAC with mic-in.

 

[ShangriLa]

Schiit Fulla 3

Yeah the other type of DAC that have mic-in and headphone-out is what they call 'gaming DAC', including some Schiit/Creative/Mayflower models. I wonder how good those are..

 

[PurpleAngel]

Yeah the other type of DAC that have mic-in and headphone-out is what they call 'gaming DAC', including some Schiit/Creative/Mayflower models. I wonder how good those are..

I bought one last month, for use when away from home, no regrets buying it.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Thanks. According to this video the Motu M2 has the best headphone amp as a budget AI. Just not sure how good it is compared to 'normal' headphone amps.

Hard to tell without hearing how much better it is than the other interfaces but I'd hedge my bets on the headphone amps generally being better than an interface. I mean, you're not paying for a mic preamp on those.

So you talked about audio interface's (in)ability to drive headphones, which seems to be an important aspect of evaluating an amp.

I'd prefer to use the term "handicap."

But if the interface can provide sufficient power, how good is its sound quality. In other words, how good of a headphone it can serve before bottlenecking the overall sound quality? A 200-dollar headphone? I'm not much of a headphone person though do have a semi-serious desktop stereo (5k) for my computer so just curious.

First off, the price of the headphone isn't what matters here. If somebody develops a very high sensitivity driver design where a very efficient magnet and voice coil system is unimpeded by a hard to move but very tough ie low distortion diaphragm gets 105dB/1mW and has a 32ohm impedance then it doesn't matter if he decides to sell that for $5,000, a Fiio M7 has enough headroom to drive that thing over a $200 headphone with 93dB/1mW senstivity. Think of this like how a Lotus costs more than Mustang but has less power, and yet when you take it to the track and have two drivers with equal skill, the Mustang's only real chance is to get ahead at the straight and then drive defensively...which is still a tall order against a lighter, more streamlined, better weight balanced car designed less for doing doughnuts and being amazing in a straight line and more for dancing around a track making more powerful cars look like a P38 getting outmaneuvered by a Zero (and it's not like the armour helps when the Zero has 20mm guns).

Second, as for power, that depends really on how high the headphone sensitivity is and how loud you'd want or need it to play. I can use a 117dB/1mW in-ear monitor and even a smartphone with 15mW is more than enough - the only thing that would really matter for smartphones is whether the signal is clean and has good channel separation, and has a low enough output impedance. If I put an HD600 on the same smartphone and only listen at roughly 60dB (note the figures are not literal xxdB as soon as you crank it up due to gain and media gain variances) then it won't sound any different compared to using the same HD600 on a Violectric V281. Now, if I crank it up to try to play at 70dB because the natural perception is that louder = better to a point, the problem there is that "point" isn't just "ears are bleeding," but also "system is distorting." The phone can start to distort by that point and sound worse whereas the headphone amp isn't even anywhere near piling on a lot of distortion yet giving you the full psychological benefit of louder = better as you hear everything with better clarity.

Think of it this way. Do you really need that Ferrari? Because if you're just getting groceries if you're not hitting the apex in corners or trying to go on a weekend and not spoil it by spending a lot of time driving behind some slow schmuck on a rural two lane road with lots of oncoming traffic you're not gonna notice much of a difference over a Camry in a meaningful way (I mean, you might feel better about yourself or enjoy the exhaust note, but then you have a smaller boot for the groceries and you're sitting really low).

 

[gimmeheadroom]

Ì have a Behringer UMC202HD which sells for about 70 euros (I think).

It is perfectly fine for Sennheiser HD 25s and probably a lot of other headphones. It's a DAC, it's an ADC, it's a headphone amp.

Will it drive HD 600s? Yes. Will it drive them well? No, not in my opinion.

So it really depends on your budget and headphones.

 

[ShangriLa]

Hard to tell without hearing how much better it is than the other interfaces but I'd hedge my bets on the headphone amps generally being better than an interface. I mean, you're not paying for a mic preamp on those.




I'd prefer to use the term "handicap."




First off, the price of the headphone isn't what matters here. If somebody develops a very high sensitivity driver design where a very efficient magnet and voice coil system is unimpeded by a hard to move but very tough ie low distortion diaphragm gets 105dB/1mW and has a 32ohm impedance then it doesn't matter if he decides to sell that for $5,000, a Fiio M7 has enough headroom to drive that thing over a $200 headphone with 93dB/1mW senstivity. Think of this like how a Lotus costs more than Mustang but has less power, and yet when you take it to the track and have two drivers with equal skill, the Mustang's only real chance is to get ahead at the straight and then drive defensively...which is still a tall order against a lighter, more streamlined, better weight balanced car designed less for doing doughnuts and being amazing in a straight line and more for dancing around a track making more powerful cars look like a P38 getting outmaneuvered by a Zero (and it's not like the armour helps when the Zero has 20mm guns).

Second, as for power, that depends really on how high the headphone sensitivity is and how loud you'd want or need it to play. I can use a 117dB/1mW in-ear monitor and even a smartphone with 15mW is more than enough - the only thing that would really matter for smartphones is whether the signal is clean and has good channel separation, and has a low enough output impedance. If I put an HD600 on the same smartphone and only listen at roughly 60dB (note the figures are not literal xxdB as soon as you crank it up due to gain and media gain variances) then it won't sound any different compared to using the same HD600 on a Violectric V281. Now, if I crank it up to try to play at 70dB because the natural perception is that louder = better to a point, the problem there is that "point" isn't just "ears are bleeding," but also "system is distorting." The phone can start to distort by that point and sound worse whereas the headphone amp isn't even anywhere near piling on a lot of distortion yet giving you the full psychological benefit of louder = better as you hear everything with better clarity.

Think of it this way. Do you really need that Ferrari? Because if you're just getting groceries if you're not hitting the apex in corners or trying to go on a weekend and not spoil it by spending a lot of time driving behind some slow schmuck on a rural two lane road with lots of oncoming traffic you're not gonna notice much of a difference over a Camry in a meaningful way (I mean, you might feel better about yourself or enjoy the exhaust note, but then you have a smaller boot for the groceries and you're sitting really low).

Okay, so the main consideration is still whether the interface has enough power/headroom to drive the headphone. Whether the signal is clean and channel separation etc, which is my question, are less of a concern. Just wanted to get an idea what to expect. So in headphone listening, the factor that dictates the sound quality is the headphone then, as long as the amp has enough power to drive the headphone loud enough without distortion.

 

[ShangriLa]

According to this guy from 2:55 the M2 has pretty good headphone out and line out for studio monitors.

He also said around 50 sec that deciding factor of good recording/playback sound quality is the mic and headphone rather than the interface. The M2 is looking tempting.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Okay, so the main consideration is still whether the interface has enough power/headroom to drive the headphone. Whether the signal is clean and channel separation etc, which is my question, are less of a concern. Just wanted to get an idea what to expect. So in headphone listening, the factor that dictates the sound quality is the headphone then, as long as the amp has enough power to drive the headphone loud enough without distortion.

And the thing is how bad that distortion is.

Is it too bad? Most would be en route to hearing loss before they hear a significant difference. If it clips the headphone is just too low sensitivity for the interface.

I personally would use a headphone amp, and would recommend one, but there's no absolute guarantee that the sound is what people want to hear, and in some cases screwing with the sound sometimes results in what some people want rather than really clean power.

 

[ShangriLa]

And the thing is how bad that distortion is.

Is it too bad? Most would be en route to hearing loss before they hear a significant difference. If it clips the headphone is just too low sensitivity for the interface.

I personally would use a headphone amp, and would recommend one, but there's no absolute guarantee that the sound is what people want to hear, and in some cases screwing with the sound sometimes results in what some people want rather than really clean power.

Which amp(s) would you recommend that can serve well up to HD650 level of sound quality, and have reasonable power to drive most headphones? Again I'm mostly a speaker guy and just exploring headphone.

 

[ShangriLa]

from 2:16 better outputs with the M2 even than the Apollo Twin X per that guy.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Which amp(s) would you recommend that can serve well up to HD650 level of sound quality, and have reasonable power to drive most headphones? Again I'm mostly a speaker guy and just exploring headphone.

Most basic, there's the Schiit Magni. Maybe the Asgard3.

If you can save up a bit, there's the Meier Rock FF or go straight to the Jazz FF.

 

[ShangriLa]

Most basic, there's the Schiit Magni. Maybe the Asgard3.

If you can save up a bit, there's the Meier Rock FF or go straight to the Jazz FF.

Good stuff. I will take a look at these.

This guy felt the M2 headphone amp sounds worse than the 400-dollar Monoprice THX AAA 887 Amp, possibly because of lack of power. In the meantime, he praised the its DAC and happily replaced SMSL-SU8 with the M2. So that's a nice head-to-head comprison with dedicated amp/dac.