[philodox]

Quote:

Originally Posted by yorkie Electrically speaking the difference between the two materials is negligible. There is no explanation why the dynamics of the sound would change, because that implies some sort of interference at specific frequencies.

I urge you to read over the Detroit meet impressions. Every person that heard my home rig with silver cables [Headphile XRS] noticed a drastic improvement when changing to copper cables [DiMarzio]. This is not to say that copper is better than silver, but the two definately sound different.

 

[shimage]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS My bad. I wasn't asking if you had suggested other people try aftermarket power cords. I was asking if you had tried any, the point being that neither one of us will be able to persuade the other if you haven't heard, because the issue is all about what we hear.

Sorry about the misunderstanding. To be completely honest, when I suggest to people that they try it out it's almost tongue-in-cheek, since powercords have to be one of the most tedious things to swap (and as such, it's one of the toughest things to do a comparison with). Please understand that, as far as I'm concerned, A/Bing powercords is sort of like A/Bing foil hats, only a billion times more cumbersome and tedious, so even if someone handed me a pair of cords I might not be inclined to do the test.

EDIT: as for the cable debate, I found this to be an interesting read ...
http://www.verber.com/mark/cables.html

 

[Artie]

This may be a bad analogy, but I tend to think of an audio amplifier as an ultra high-tech transistor. The power cord is the collector, the speaker wire the emitter, and the input source the base. It would seem to me that if any one of those connections is important, all three would be important.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shimage Sorry about the misunderstanding. To be completely honest, when I suggest to people that they try it out it's almost tongue-in-cheek, since powercords have to be one of the most tedious things to swap (and as such, it's one of the toughest things to do a comparison with). Please understand that, as far as I'm concerned, A/Bing powercords is sort of like A/Bing foil hats, only a billion times more cumbersome and tedious, so even if someone handed me a pair of cords I might not be inclined to do the test.

They can indeed be a pain to swap out. For that reason, I rarely, if ever, A/B them. I only AAAAAAAAAA/BBBBBBBBBB them, where each A or B represents approximately an hour's worth of time listening to music on my system with which I am intimately familiar.

In any event, if I understand you correctly, it seems like you're saying you have not tried aftermarket powercords. This is not really surprising, as I would venture to say that virtually every single naysayer in these "cable debates" has never tried the product under discussion. It's rather interesting that we rarely hear from someone who says: "My system consists of a, b and c, and I have tried at least a half a dozen different aftermarket power cords (or interconnects, etc.) and I couldn't hear any difference between any of them." On the other hand, we often hear from people who were complete skeptics, but then were convinced by actual experience. (But then again we have to account for the powerful placebo effect, which is so mind-numbing that no one can resist it, not even those strong proponents of scientific theory whose expectations going into the experiment were completely contrary to the alleged placebo effect.)

 

[kontai69]

Here is a good A/B/X blind test done on power cables...
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...s-12-2004.html
Make of it as you will.

 

[PhilS]

I've always loved the Secrets article's quotation of John Atkinson's comments:

"But when you have taken part in a number of these blind tests and experienced how two amplifiers you know from personal experience to sound extremely different can still fail to be identified under blind conditions, then perhaps an alternative hypothesis is called for: that the very procedure of a blind listening test can conceal small but real subjective differences. Having taken part in quite a number of such blind tests, I have become convinced of the truth in this hypothesis. Over 10 years ago, for example, I failed to distinguish a Quad 405 from a Naim NAP250 or a TVA tube amplifier in such a blind test organized by Martin Colloms. Convinced by these results of the validity in the Consumer Reports philosophy, I consequently sold my exotic and expensive Lecson power amplifier with which I had been very happy and bought a much cheaper Quad 405—the biggest mistake of my audiophile career!"

That paragraph really sums it up for me.

 

[shimage]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS [...](But then again we have to account for the powerful placebo effect, which is so mind-numbing that no one can resist it, not even those strong proponents of scientific theory whose expectations going into the experiment were completely contrary to the alleged placebo effect.) [...]

First of all, if I don't trust myself to be free from placebo, what makes you think that I'd trust you? or any of your friends, for that matter, regardless of how numerous they may be. You seem to have some sort of denial with respect to placebo. As if it couldn't possibly happen to you, or something. It happens to everyone, well meaning or not, and the only way to remove it is to use a blind test. I will treat your claims the same way I treat all other claims. I will consider your "data", your "methods", and your "analysis". Your data is fine, your methods ludicrous and your analysis absurd. If you had better measurements, I would take your information at face value. Such as it is, this conversation is over. I just noticed that I've been using a bad bad word that's not allowed in this forum for good reason.

EDIT: Forgive me for continuing the discussion just a bit more. I hate it when I lie too. I will grant you this little tidbit that ought to be bulletproof. Suppose that the differences you hear are in your imagination (pretend, for just a moment). Suppose that, no matter what you try to tell yourself, though, you cannot make those differences go away. The placebo is something that can only be lifted by a blind test (pretend that they actually work, for a moment). Now, recall that the whole point of the stereo is to bring us enjoyment. If a bigger, heftier cable makes you enjoy music better, and this increase in enjoyment is worth what you paid for it, then I would say that your purchase is a perfectly reasonable decision. If it sounds good, it is good, as they say. Now, you buy what you like, and I will buy what I like. We will decide what we like in whatever manner we choose. And we BOTH will be HAPPY about it. And, furthermore, I will not bother you all with my nonsense in this forum any longer.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shimage Your data is fine, your methods ludicrous and your analysis absurd. . . . . Such as it is, this conversation is over.

Nice way to end it. I won't respond to your points, since apparently you intend to insult me and then run for the hills.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shimage EDIT: Forgive me for continuing the discussion just a bit more. I hate it when I lie too. I will grant you this little tidbit that ought to be bulletproof. Suppose that the differences you hear are in your imagination (pretend, for just a moment). Suppose that, no matter what you try to tell yourself, though, you cannot make those differences go away. The placebo is something that can only be lifted by a blind test (pretend that they actually work, for a moment). Now, recall that the whole point of the stereo is to bring us enjoyment. If a bigger, heftier cable makes you enjoy music better, and this increase in enjoyment is worth what you paid for it, then I would say that your purchase is a perfectly reasonable decision. If it sounds good, it is good, as they say.

You still haven't offered an explanation of how the placebo effect causes someone who believes aftermarket cables are bunk to hear differences? I have never received an explanation or even a plausible theory for this in any thread in which I have posited this question. You guys keep saying over and over "placebo," "placebo," "placebo," as if the very repetition of the word gives your argument some validity. I understand if one expects a power cord is going to improve things, that one might be duped. I understand that if I am told the medicine is going to cure me (and it's just a sugar pill), I might be duped. But if I'm told it's just a sugar pill and I firmly believe that it will not, but it does anyway, are you going to say it's all a placebo effect?

 

[braillediver]

How does the Placebo effect work for me if I intellectually can’t accept there is a difference in sound caused by a better power cord but I can hear it.

I can’t technically explain the difference but I can hear it.

I can’t measure the difference but I can hear it.

I don’t want there to be a difference since I don’t want to spend the money on a high-end power cord but I can hear it.

So with all of these negatives why does it appear my amp sounds deeper, clearer and fuller with a better power cord? I’m not talking dramatically but noticeably on familiar recordings using the same gear I’ve used for 6 months?


An obvious statement is- Not all systems are up to the level of performance necessary to let the listener differentiate the subtle differences between something like a power cord.


Mitch

 

[recstar24]

Quote:

Originally Posted by braillediver An obvious statement is- Not all systems are up to the level of performance necessary to let the listener differentiate the subtle differences between something like a power cord. Mitch

You nailed it on the head right there - if your system doesn't have the resolving power to even let those differences shine through, well of course you arent going to hear anything, good for you, you don't have to waste money on cables, on my rig it definitely is audible and it helps that extra percentage as well.

Also, audible changes are much more apparent on speakers than on headphones in my experience. With a crappy power cord, i can hear the soundscape of my speakers incredibly limited, i can narrow it down to a specific feet of range that im hearing the sound emanating from, pop in the other power cord and i can hear how the stage widens left to right and especially the depth beyond the speakers really starts to develop.

On heaphones, its not as apparent, but its definitely still there, for me my 650's are great at being able to distinguish some of those more subtle differences, hence why i stayed with my VH Audio Flavor 1 and why i recommend it so heavily

 

[Kram Sacul]

I was going to scream placebo alert but now I'm convinced. Power cables don't make anything sound better, they just have the power to screw it up.

 

[morphie]

I think an upgrade in power cord will bring: lower ground noise FULL STOP.

It is absolutly irrational to think upgrading your power cord will make any sonic changes, or soundstage changes for that matter. All a better power cord is imho able to do is give cleaner power to the unit, and thus make the buzzing caused by vibrations (which are due to a bad way of transporting the current, dont ask me to explain this is all supositions hehehe) lower. Considering that with "most" units, ground noise is so low that you probably will have a very hard time hearing it, it is unlikely that the sound properly speaking will benefit from an upgrade of power cords.

But hell, what do I know

It's the most plausible theory imho tho.

 

[morphie]

Since we're on the subject I wouldnt mind blowing a couple of hundred bucks for a couple of good power cords. My problem is I'm french and we have different sockets for such plugs. Anyone know a HQ power cord maker who could make me a couple of french socketed power cords for a reasonable price?

Thanks in advance

 

[braillediver]

Mitch