High End DAC Recommendations
Oct 27, 2015 at 4:56 AM Post #46 of 118
The CH-P C1 is a really nice piece of equipment. In my home setup I use a dCS Paganini. I recently bought a Classe Omega Preamp and while it goes against my logical explanation (adding a preamp when your DAC has an onboard preamp) it does a better job combined then when using the Paganini amp-direct.
 
I think it is really important to audition the DAC in your own system. I've heard dCS quite a lot before and sometimes it just sounded cold and not very moving...
 
Oct 27, 2015 at 8:09 AM Post #47 of 118
@ karlgerman,

You say the C1 is too expensive for you, well that place in the UK who brought the C1 to my place for that audition sells one for £18,500, but in order to use a computer with that DAC a USB board is needed which costs from the same place £1,500, so together the two obviously come to £20,000.
I've seen an Esoteric D-02 in the UK also priced at £20,000, so I'm not sure what extra's you're referring to that's going to make the C1 too expensive for you, unless CH-Precision gear in Germany is a lot more expensive than in the UK.
 
Oct 27, 2015 at 9:51 AM Post #48 of 118
  What are these various other 5K DACs?  Names would really help.


You might wanna take a look at exasound e20MkIII or e22 ... OK too cheap but maybe you can ask if they take your 5k's
wink.gif
. External psu upgrade and power cable will help to spent more.
 
OK kidding aside. You will pay for the sound and not for some impressive, big and heavy, fancy case work.
I love the sound and wouldn't change anything even if I won the lottery.
 
Oct 27, 2015 at 10:34 AM Post #49 of 118
Speaking of high end DACs...
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/252144120059?rmvSB=true
 
I don't think that's the first one from that seller either, he may have multiple.  Too bad it lacks balanced output, which is weird since I've seen other pictures of the Timbre TT-1 with balanced XLR outputs so I guess there are at least two models.  That was originally an > $3k DAC and many still say it's one of the best ever made.
 
Oct 27, 2015 at 10:36 AM Post #50 of 118
Hi David1961
 
I was reading on the website of the German distributor and the ch-precision site.
If you add Clock synchronization board, USB audio input board,Ethernet audio streaming board and
X1 external power supply
just for a quick overview on a top configuration it´s about 48.000 €
 
thats what i had to pay for a D-02 + G-01 Rubidium Clock (still sound as a ESOTERIC and not as a r2r)
£20,000 should be around 27.000€ (list pricing)
 
As i like the D-02 i would like to have the C1 als a add on------and that will kill my wallet right now
rolleyes.gif

 
Selling older ESOTERIC gear means loosing a lot of money
 
But pricing seems the same in our country´s
 
Oct 27, 2015 at 10:37 AM Post #51 of 118
 
You might wanna take a look at exasound e20MkIII or e22 ... OK too cheap but maybe you can ask if they take your 5k's
wink.gif
. External psu upgrade and power cable will help to spent more.
 
OK kidding aside. You will pay for the sound and not for some impressive, big and heavy, fancy case work.
I love the sound and wouldn't change anything even if I won the lottery.

 
No, I'm not looking for a DAC.  It was a response to the below statement.  I just wanted astrostar59 to list some of those various other 5K DACs (names) so we can have a better reference of the type of DS DACs he's referring to.
 
For instance: If you say the exasound e20MKIII is one of the best DAC's you've heard up to 5K and it's a DS DAC.  But others say it's a DS DAC so it must not be good.  At least we have the name of a DAC that could be up for discussion.
 
 
  Hi Karlgerman
I think there is a reason why the C1 sounds very different. Bear with me, as you know I have an Audio Note DAC 4.1 kit with upgrade bits, but the sound of all my previous DACs which were DS was very similar to each other, some were better than others.
I would guess the better ones just had a better power supply. But an underlying treble coldness and harshness (subtle but there) bugged the hell out of me. I had Meridian, Musical Fidelity and various other DACs up to £5K. All were raved about in the press, all were gone in 6 months.
 

 
Oct 27, 2015 at 11:05 AM Post #52 of 118
 
You might wanna take a look at exasound e20MkIII or e22 ... OK too cheap but maybe you can ask if they take your 5k's
wink.gif
. External psu upgrade and power cable will help to spent more.
 
OK kidding aside. You will pay for the sound and not for some impressive, big and heavy, fancy case work.
I love the sound and wouldn't change anything even if I won the lottery.

 
I think OP is looking for a R2R dac, and not one based on ESS Technology’s original premium ES9018S Classic SABRE32 Reference integrated circuit.
 
Oct 27, 2015 at 11:23 AM Post #53 of 118
... apart from I was not replying to the OP (who btw hasn't participated at all since starting this thread), I also don't care too much for the type of chip or principle of design. I find it kind of funny actually that price and partisan brotherhood of R2R vs other types of circuits takes over enjoyment of listening to music. Just my poor $0.02
wink.gif
 
 
Oct 27, 2015 at 11:59 AM Post #54 of 118
  Hi David1961
 
I was reading on the website of the German distributor and the ch-precision site.
If you add Clock synchronization board, USB audio input board,Ethernet audio streaming board and
X1 external power supply
just for a quick overview on a top configuration it´s about 48.000 €
 
thats what i had to pay for a D-02 + G-01 Rubidium Clock (still sound as a ESOTERIC and not as a r2r)
£20,000 should be around 27.000€ (list pricing)
 
As i like the D-02 i would like to have the C1 als a add on------and that will kill my wallet right now
rolleyes.gif

 
Selling older ESOTERIC gear means loosing a lot of money
 
But pricing seems the same in our country´s


Hi Karl,
 
Yes adding what you've mentioned will take the price to around that you've written, and will more than likely improve on the SQ, but I found the 009/BHSE did/do sound extremely good even with just a C1 and the USB board, using a computer as well.
 
Also, when buying the likes of an Esoteric then selling, there's going to be a loss, but that's the same with most things.
When I do decide to sell the K-01, I'll be lucky if I get half of what I paid for it, but I'm using a music server most of the time now, and not using CD's that often, which is why I'm looking towards getting a DAC only.
 
Oct 27, 2015 at 3:21 PM Post #55 of 118
For Prepoman and others, please bear with me it is a long tim e ago.
 
First DAC was a Sharp huge aluminium box that was 8K at the time and I gout it for 2K second hand. It had 2 x burr brown chips
and was I believe 2 or 4 oversampling. It actually sounded quite good, but still digital sounding.
 
Second was a Pioneer PD91 which was a bit better, again burr brown chips, 8 x oversampling good power supply, nice bass but still 'hifi' sounding.
 
Third a Meridian can't remember the number, but the square module,r chassis, Sounded much clearer and transparent but was too technical, and I grew bored of it.
 
Forth was a Pink Triangle Decapo with battery supply pack and 2 x chip modules. On 20 bit it was pretty good, better than the previous ones. John Westlake who designed it went
onto Cambridge audio and the DAC Magic plus other good designs. 
 
Fifth was the Naim CDX, 4K and also nice, more analogue soub ding, good bass, quite warm, nearly right. Still that treble quality didn't quite do it for me. I sold it after 12 months and moved on.
 
Sixth was a Musical Fidelity Tri-Vista I thin k it was called on demo for 2 months. I already had the A370 Power amp so I liked the brand. It was still not right for me.
 
A period of demos, visits to hifi shops, Arcam, more Meridian gear, heard an AMR in a mates system, sounded nice, but generally getting bored of looking. I had a basic Audio Note 1.1 kit during this period which was nice, very cheap but punched well above it's price point. I heard some Lampizator DACs last at a hifi show, and they seemed good. As far as I know some are R-2R and some DS. It is hard to really know the actual sound in a show of course. I really only trust a home demo or at the very least a personal session in a demo room with my own music (known tracks).
This to me is crucial, they can mess with your head (ears) at shows with unknown source material.
 
Then I heard an Audio Note 4.1 and liked it a lot. It was hard to get a demo as I live in Spain, plus I was short of cash, so I bought the Audio Note DAC 3.1 kit. I put that together in 10 hours, worked perfect first time. On switch on, now we are talking, like my old turntable rig. At this time I had 2 x 300B Audio Note mono blocks and a 4K Audio Note pre-amp, so things were getting good now. I was very happy. A year later I upgraded the 3.1 to the 4.1 and it jumped up in SQ again. It had everything I liked  in DS but without that artificial treble, or coldness. I can't explain it better than that. I was never convinced any of those previous DACs were music, more hifi to me. It may be me, I am only saying what I hear and my connection to the music.
 
Recently I have been upgrading more bits in the 4.1 DAC with new Audio Note Kassai caps, Dueland coupling caps, and upgrading the digital board and regulation board. Plus I bought some I/V transformers from a DAC 5 (25K DAC) and they make a BIG difference. I firmly believe this thing is now between a DAC 4.1 and the Audio Note UK DAC 5 Special as regards sound level.
 
So, as requested, that is my little journey. There are some DS DACs in my demo period I can't remember the models. I basically tried most 5 - 10K DACs made by UK manufacturers and some Japanese makes. It does get difficult as with most DS DACs they began (to me) to sound the same. IMO to get above a certain level it needs to go R-2R or DS seriously well build / designed.
I do seem to prefer tubes as well. Not because I like a rosy glow / warm sound, I actually like big dynamics and tight bass as I listen to a lot of trance and rock. I found the mid-range to be more realistic in the tubed DACs amongst other positives.
 
I kind of wonder why everyone is so hung up on the story we have all been fed since the 90s about oversampling. It has no logic. There is no more detail to be gained by guessing or over-sampling. It is like an image in Photoshop, upsample it and it gets blurred, there is no more detail there. The whole idea of the up sampling / oversampling thing was to facilitate a cut off filter from 18K to 22K to remove artefacts. The trouble is that filter killed the music IMO. Filtering done in a transformer is much more effective IMO and outside the chip. I am not an expert, all this stuff is out there to read. The best thing is demo a nice R-2R DAC and hear for yourself.
 
The high res revolution never interested me enough to go for a SACHs player, or DSD. If IO can get a sound I am happy with on Red`Book, and buy any music for under £6 per CD why bother?
It my mind the more components crammed into a DAC to handle these extra formats, the more the sound of RedBook gets watered down, and the budget on that DAC as well. 
 
Basically I think R-2R has come back from there 90s but in a much more developed form, built for serious (niche) audiophiles and many by small manufacturers who are enthusiasts. The massive corporations pumping out main stream gear and who have a 'signature' DS DAC, maybe they are ok? I gave up trying to be honest. The sound David heard on that C1, I am sure (hope) it is available in more affordable designs, I think it is. To try and see about that, I am going to get a demo of an MSB Anaogue and a TotalDAC, maybe the AMR in the UK next year (if possible).
 
Right now, I am looking at improving my mains supply as the next possible bottleneck, maybe a PS Audio P10 regenerator. The mains in my place is really dirty I am convinced about that.
 
Hope this helps.
 
Oct 27, 2015 at 4:01 PM Post #56 of 118
I just remembered, many of those 'high end' DACs in the 90s were reboxed Philips mechs, some were even the whole thing in another outer case. Check out the Lampizator threads on his website. So many folk were RIPPED OFF.
 
I hate all that, we were suckers buying into it.
 
Oct 27, 2015 at 4:26 PM Post #57 of 118
So clearly there's a lack of knowledge with modern day D-S DACs.  There are really good D-S DACs at all price points - up to the 5K mark like eXasound (heard),  just under 10K =  Bricasti M1 (owned), and well above 10K = Graphon Kalliope (never heard).  To name a few, I'm sure there's more.
 
My point in all this is instead of criticizing the technology, criticize the specific DAC that you've heard.  It's less of a blanket statement and more of what you've actually listened to.
 
Oct 27, 2015 at 5:58 PM Post #58 of 118
  So clearly there's a lack of knowledge with modern day D-S DACs.  There are really good D-S DACs at all price points - up to the 5K mark like eXasound (heard),  just under 10K =  Bricasti M1 (owned), and well above 10K = Graphon Kalliope (never heard).  To name a few, I'm sure there's more.
 
My point in all this is instead of criticizing the technology, criticize the specific DAC that you've heard.  It's less of a blanket statement and more of what you've actually listened to.

Note I have spend a lot of time with David's K-01. 
 
Fair enough. I do say in my post all this based on what I have heard. Anyone can say this or that DAC that a person will not have heard. My point is, there is something going on with R-2R DACs, they to me sound different. I also said there are good DS DAC around. It is just I have not found a musical connection to any of them. Others may have a different result. Maybe if I heard the Bricasti M1 I may be convinced? In this hobby, it is about personal choices and how we perceive music, what to that person sounds 'correct' to them. I have tried to steer away from gear that sounds 'hifi' and head towards gear that sounds realistic (to my ears).
 
Thinking about this, why don't you demo a good R-2R DAC like a TotalDAC, and see if it works for you. Maybe you already have? If that case you are happy with your DS DACs and that is great.
But most folk who have heard one, and most pro reviewers notice there is something different going on. If that difference is closer to how you perceive actual music to sound then that is great. If not, stick with DS. It is a free world.... 
 
Oct 27, 2015 at 6:02 PM Post #59 of 118
Thinking about this, why don't you demo a good R-2R DAC like a TotalDAC, and see if it works for you. Maybe you already have? If that case you are happy with your DS DACs and that is great.

 
He did own a TotalDAC at some point :) Don't have anything else to add.
 
Oct 27, 2015 at 6:35 PM Post #60 of 118
  Note I have spend a lot of time with David's K-01. 
 
Fair enough. I do say in my post all this based on what I have heard. Anyone can say this or that DAC that a person will not have heard. My point is, there is something going on with R-2R DACs, they to me sound different. I also said there are good DS DAC around. It is just I have not found a musical connection to any of them. Others may have a different result. Maybe if I heard the Bricasti M1 I may be convinced? In this hobby, it is about personal choices and how we perceive music, what to that person sounds 'correct' to them. I have tried to steer away from gear that sounds 'hifi' and head towards gear that sounds realistic (to my ears).
 
Thinking about this, why don't you demo a good R-2R DAC like a TotalDAC, and see if it works for you. Maybe you already have? If that case you are happy with your DS DACs and that is great.
But most folk who have heard one, and most pro reviewers notice there is something different going on. If that difference is closer to how you perceive actual music to sound then that is great. If not, stick with DS. It is a free world.... 


astrostar,  I've said it before.  I owned the following:  
 
TotalDac D1-Dual
Bricasti M1 [ΣΔ at its' best]
Aqua La Scala MK2
Schiit Audio Yggdrasil
AMR DP-777 [Duelund VSF Black Cast Capacitors]
Audio-gd Master 7 w/ HDMI i2S
Audio-gd Master 7
PerfectWave DAC MKII
NAD m51 Direct Digital DAC
Schiit Audio Modi
Buffalo III (PB&J)
John Kenny Ciunas DAC
 
And heard for long periods of time the Lamipzator L4 G4 and a Audio Note Kit 4.1 built by DigitalPete.  Needless to say the Audio Note kit was one of my "least" favorite DACS.  Not resolving at all.
 
Yet the best DAC I've heard to date is the EMM Labs DAC2X - I think it's based on the 1 bit D-S technology but does not use a D-S off the shelf  chip.  It's made in house like the Metrum DACS are now.
 
So I've had all flavors and behind the DAC2X and the TotalDAC I place the Bricasti M1 in third place.  So my point is it's not the technology per se.  It's more the implementation of the DAC chip that's used.  The Graphon Kalliope is proof of that.  
 

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