[David1961]

Ok, then keep it on for 24 hours and tell me what happened then!

Why would I want to do that ?

 

[karlgerman]

It is all about stabilizing the clock. The Esoteric gets a lot smoother after it reaches the level.
Was talking to developers (my mosfed amp) for example and they told me it make no sense for the amp but different for DAC´s.
I did it then and was surprised about the change in sound. The D-02 does not need so much energy in "standby"
Give him a try!
 
I bought the Remote for my DAC ( for 27.000€ it´s not included) that i´m able to switch filter´s... during playback.
 
4 times upsample is smoother to DSP convert or NOS but everything else had less effect than warming up the DAC. The whole casing gets handwarm after some + hours. 

 

[David1961]

@ karlgerman,
 
I will try leaving my K-01 on for 24 hours, but even from cold the C1 sounded better than the K-01 has in all the time I've used it, so while the K-01 might sound smoother after that 24 hours, I still don't offer it any hope in sounding as good as the C1.
 
If you remember, I was thinking towards my next audio piece [ other than a KGSSHV Carbon ]  being a D-02, simply because I'm not using CD's that often now, [  which is why I auditioned the C1  ] and I was planning to sell the K-01 and get a D-02, but then I said I'd be keeping the K-01 and not bother with a D-02, but after hearing the C1 I've decided I'm selling the K-01 after all, in order to help get that C1 sooner.
 
In the four years I've had the K-01 I've been very happy with it, so I'm sure you are very happy with your D-02, but you should at least try and get to audition a C1 with your headphone/amp.
 
P.S. There may be better sounding DAC's available, but the C1 gives me the three things I'm wanting from any audio piece, which is why the C1 will be my next.

 

[karlgerman]

I understand, you want something different in sounding. I would not go for a d-02 to replace the k-01 in your situation.
At the time i had to made my choice i tried the k-01 first but i always knew that i will use a MAC as source and stopp buying CD/SACD....
 
So it was easier to switch at the beginning of my Highlevel DAC career.
I know there is a hype about the r2r DAC´s right now. And i know the sweet sounding of this technology but there is more than just a chipset concept.
With the C1 you will be on the save side. Never heard the C1 but similar as a Esoteric, the build quality is really outstanding.
 
I might get a chance to compare some r2r DAC to the D-02. Friends of mine check stuff for build up a HighEnd equipment.
 
To my surprise they send back the Totaldac in favour of the Metrum Pavane as best DAC on the system. So i was a little bit disappointed not to had the chance of comparison at my home system.
Last news is that they ordered a new one, the no. 1 DAC from Totaldac to give it another try. Maybe this time i will get the change...
 
The German distributor of the C1 is not to far away from my home -- i might check that next year.
 
UPDATE: Uhhh, i checked some pricing details--- this is like woo audio stuff 

  some extras available --- so all in all about 50.000 euros for me -- to much to handle for my kind--
think have to stay on cheaper things

 

[David1961]

I understand, you want something different in sounding.

Not just different but better, which after hearing the C1 I found it was/is, the way I like to hear SQ that is.
I've also said before that the build quality of an Esoteric K-01 would take some bettering, well to me the CH-Precision C1 has/is.

 

[David1961]

@ karlgerman,
 
I've just finished listening to my 009 / BHSE which was for around two hours, after the K-01 had been on for 24 hours, and while the SQ may have sounded smoother, I didn't find it to be obvious, therefore my thought is still at getting [ eventually ] a CH-P C1, and selling the K-01.

 

[nepherte]

So, while there are less expensive R-2R DAC's available that might sound as good, I'm not interested in them simply because I can't see them being built to the same quality as the C1, and two of those mentioned by astrostar59 ( TolalDAC & MSB ) I don't like the look of.

 
I completely understand that looks are a factor when buying expensive gear. A bit of a shame though. I would have been very interested in your take on the Totaldac and how it performs against the other dacs you have auditioned

 

[karlgerman]

@ David1961
 
Thanks for the feedback,
 
To bad, but it was worth a try at low cost.

My D-02 may react different. I tested this several times and i´m absolutely sure that there is more smoothness in sounding.
 
As i know this will be the result of a more stabile clock performance. Should be the same or better with a external G-02 or better G-01.
I had the G-02 two years ago for testing and did not heard a big benefit so i send it back.
 
I didn´t know that 1.) the effect is more obvious on Loudspeakers  2.) G-01 is much better in precision  3.) the clock need some real warm up time.
 
Since i realized how important a better DAC is on a Loudspeaker system i changed my setup and combined all equipment, Loudspeaker and Stax in one rack.
 
Therefore i replaced my Lyngdorf LS Amp/DAC to a better AMP and the D-02 and here the better sounding of a heated DAC is easily to realize.
 
But the CH-P C1 is a class of it´s own and with all it´s extras a big step forward to best sound.
To expensive for me, i try to get my hands on some TOTALDAC, PAVANE, ROCKNA Wavedream...... r2r DAC.
 
or a Esoteric G-01 clock for 24.000€ 

 

 

[David1961]

 

So, while there are less expensive R-2R DAC's available that might sound as good, I'm not interested in them simply because I can't see them being built to the same quality as the C1, and two of those mentioned by astrostar59 ( TotalDAC & MSB ) I don't like the look of.

 
I completely understand that looks are a factor when buying expensive gear. A bit of a shame though. I would have been very interested in your take on the Totaldac and how it performs against the other dacs you have auditioned

I don't think the TotalDAC and MSB's look bad, to me just not as good as the CH-P C1, I also think both the TotalDAC and MSB's wouldn't look good with the rest of my gear on my audio rack, whereas the CH-P C1 would and does, for my liking that is.
When I do eventually get a C1, it'll be going on the same shelf where my K-01 is.

 

[nepherte]

I hope you didnt take my comment as negative criticism. It was more meant as a sentiment of missing out on your opinion about the sound quality of said DACs. I do factor in looks as well

 

[David1961]

I hope you didnt take my comment as negative criticism. It was more meant as a sentiment of missing out on your opinion about the sound quality of said DACs. I do factor in looks as well

No I didn't, but there are quite a lot on head-fi that don't agree with me that looks are important.
Also while I don't plan on auditioning a TotalDAC or MSB's, I do plan on trying an Audio Note DAC5S with my 009 / BHSE, even though I won't be getting one.

 

[astrostar59]

  @ David1961
 
Thanks for the feedback,
 
To bad, but it was worth a try at low cost.

My D-02 may react different. I tested this several times and i´m absolutely sure that there is more smoothness in sounding.
 
As i know this will be the result of a more stabile clock performance. Should be the same or better with a external G-02 or better G-01.
I had the G-02 two years ago for testing and did not heard a big benefit so i send it back.
 
I didn´t know that 1.) the effect is more obvious on Loudspeakers  2.) G-01 is much better in precision  3.) the clock need some real warm up time.
 
Since i realized how important a better DAC is on a Loudspeaker system i changed my setup and combined all equipment, Loudspeaker and Stax in one rack.
 
Therefore i replaced my Lyngdorf LS Amp/DAC to a better AMP and the D-02 and here the better sounding of a heated DAC is easily to realize.
 
But the CH-P C1 is a class of it´s own and with all it´s extras a big step forward to best sound.
To expensive for me, i try to get my hands on some TOTALDAC, PAVANE, ROCKNA Wavedream...... r2r DAC.
 
or a Esoteric G-01 clock for 24.000€ 

 

Hi Karlgerman
I think there is a reason why the C1 sounds very different. Bear with me, as you know I have an Audio Note DAC 4.1 kit with upgrade bits, but the sound of all my previous DACs which were DS was very similar to each other, some were better than others.
I would guess the better ones just had a better power supply. But an underlying treble coldness and harshness (subtle but there) bugged the hell out of me. I had Meridian, Musical Fidelity and various other DACs up to £5K. All were raved about in the press, all were gone in 6 months.
 
The whole way an R-2R extracts the data on Redbook is fundamentally different from a Delta-Sigma. In an ideal world, they should sound the same, but I know that is not the case fro what I have heard. Things do sound different, even digitally 'perfect' processors.
 
For example, an R-2R converts the digital stream direct to voltage, and the better ones use transformers to make the bridge between those domains. Doing this they can REMOVE the hideous digital filter that DS DACs were strangled with back in 1990. So we can in 'theory' call an R-2R DAC bit prefect, no messing, no upsampling, no oversampling, no apozing flittering, just a simple and effective bit to voltage convertor with 2.5v line out (or balanced 5.2v).
 
This is simplifying the circuit, but you get my drift. Then if such an R-2R DAC has a brilliant power supply and brilliant pre-amplkifier section, maybe with tubes, possibly solid state, you have there a fantastic sounding digital source, as good as a top flight turntable in fact. Yes we have had al the DS bull over the years, dynamic range, lower than 00.1% distortion bla boa, but then why does it sound wrong? Because the guys who made the measuring equipment never listened to the DACs, only measured then. 
 
As an aside, did you know the first DS chip were developed based on these measurements, nobody at the chip manufactures was listening to the sound, it is crazy.... It was all basically driven by cheapness and a hammer method of reducing the 'rougher' waveform in 16 bit R-2R conversion. 
 
In even the best DS DACs they are loaded up with oversampling circuits and complexity. They offer tons of facilities, but this all gets in the way of what it is supposed to be doing i.e bit perfect digital to analogue conversion. Yes, the Esoteric gear is at the top of the DS tree, I am sure. And there are others. In fact there are many that have gone down the DS complexity path to cover DSD and other high res formats. It is a mess.
 
To me, find a great and well built R-2R DAC, with simple circuits, and you are going to be closer to the master tape IMO. It is a pity the TotalDAC has a cheap looking case. I could live with it, but I dig why others can't. 
 
The MSB Analogue is nice, might be overpriced?> Certainly the MSB IV is IMO, even if it is very good (detailed?).
 
Lampizator, many sound inconsistent and build quality? Dunno, only what I have read in the forums.
 
AMR MK2 looks nice and is well built.
 
Audio Note DAC 5 Special was the best in the world a few years back (according to some), but the absence of USB or NAS support my be a negative at that price.
 
If I had the cash, I might get the C1. My worry may be I couldn't 'fine tune' the sound with tube rolling, but if it sounds as good as David said, I might not be bothered anyway.
Also, the Goldmund boys and CH Precision is a new company, and it is BIG money. We all want them to be here in 5 years, but in audio many disappear as we know.
 
Which brings me full circle. What would I buy? I would probably demo the TotalDAC tube version, or the D1 Dual if I was very happy with the sound as is.
It is purported to be a giant killer, costs less than 10K and the guy who makes it is a fanatic.
 
But for now, I will stick with my less exotic Audio Note 4.1 kit. I will have the new divi board in 2 weeks, the upgraded PS with Kassai caps, and the new Dueland cast caps. See how that sounds.
I am also investing in a mains regenerator by PS Audio called the P10, as my mains in Spain is dirty I reckon, and midday my system goes off a bit.
 
Karlgerman, at the level you are at with that Esoteric, I wonder what jump there is. The C1 may be better, a TotalDAC may be as well. But regardless, the sound you are getting is probably so damb good, I wouldn't beat yourself up over it....
 
Crazy hobby, but all good IMO.

 

[preproman]

What are these various other 5K DACs?  Names would really help.

 

[karlgerman]

@ astrostar59
 
Yes, even when i´m very happy with my 35bit D/A Box i know that i have to test some of the r2r DAC on my system. 
I heard a lot of DAC´s on HiFi shows but only with the own system is the ultimate experience.
 
Be careful with Powerconditioner. I have a Furman  Reference 16E, the top conditioner they offer and the company is well known in recording studios, as a good reputation in my opinion.
 
But soundwise dont expect to much. This heavy thing did not change or optimize anything in sound.
Only reason i keep it is to prevent my MartinLogans to some overvoltage, but this one could realize with less expensive things.

 

[David1961]

But the CH-P C1 is a class of it´s own and with all it´s extras a big step forward to best sound.
To expensive for me, i try to get my hands on some TOTALDAC, PAVANE, ROCKNA Wavedream...... r2r DAC.

The C1 for me is also very expensive, and will take sometime saving, and the likes of the TotalDAC and others you mentioned probably sound extremely good, and also cheaper than the C1, but I would sooner get something I really wanted but in doing so would mean I'd have to save for a longer time, as opposed to something else I wasn't that bothered about yet being able to get it sooner.