[hifimanrookie]

Quote:

 
Not with the HE-6, which was why originally a lot of people used it with. Then it somehow bled into use with HE-500's.

with the he6 u NEED at least 5watts (8 watts is better i read) and enough current to drive them...as they are very hard to drive...
 
but as far i know thats the only headphone who needs it except for the staxes ofcourse..they need a dedicated amp also)...
 
and no..again..i repeat...a speaker amp is not obligatory...
 
a speaker amp is a more budget friendly solution though.and thats perfect....as getting a 5-8w strong high quality headphone amp is very expensive.....if u dont want to spend at least 1000-1500usd (or more) on an amp..then the easiest way to drive a he6 would be a budget speakeramp...
 
 
but still...it makes me wonder why u buy such an uber expensive headphone in the first place and then drive it with an amp not costing more 1/5? of the worth to drive it..and why does this not happen among stax owners?..they are more open to spend good money on a quality amp to drive their special headphones..
 
why dont people act like that on he500/he6 headphones?..ever wondered about that?...does it have to do with budget?..is is because ALL staxes are expensive..and elite kind of thingie? and so attract other kind of buyers? are the hifiman models more attractive to the more budget minded consumer (not all ofcourse..for me it was my first step into the higher end headfi)? and so they invest less in the rest of their rigs? questions..questions..questions...

 
..buy hey....thats me thinking outloud....

 

[elwappo99]

Quote:

Quote:

I've read somewhere that you doesn't necessarily need much power to drive these these headphones, just an amp which can deliver the current quickly. Maybe all this speaker amp to drive a ortho talk is overstated?

 
Not with the HE-6, which was why originally a lot of people used it with. Then it somehow bled into use with HE-500's.

 
The reason it bled over was that the performance on the high end speaker amps excel passed headphone amplifiers. Headphone units are such a rare and niche market there isn't a whole heck of a lot of competition. The speaker amp market is pretty heavily saturated and you can get a lot more bang / buck over there. 

 

[Zoom25]

Quote:

 
The reason it bled over was that the performance on the high end speaker amps excel passed headphone amplifiers. Headphone units are such a rare and niche market there isn't a whole heck of a lot of competition. The speaker amp market is pretty heavily saturated and you can get a lot more bang / buck over there. 

 
Exactly. High end quality speaker amps any day for me. I'm talking about $2k here at the least. Recently got to try the HE-500's with some McIntosh, it was a treat. Even the PM8004 is better than the Emotiva. Emotiva is just a casual amp. Plus it doubles back greatly for speakers. This is for the Hifiman's so far, which I've noticed to get better with power. Now the Audeze's are more trickier in finding a good amp.

 

[hifimanrookie]

Quote:

 
The reason it bled over was that the performance on the high end speaker amps excel passed headphone amplifiers. Headphone units are such a rare and niche market there isn't a whole heck of a lot of competition. The speaker amp market is pretty heavily saturated and you can get a lot more bang / buck over there. 

high end speaker amps? ur talking about 2000usd plus amps right? as buying such an amp to just drive a headphone is a bit overkill i guess.. i just searched the net for headphone amps..to see if the market is a rare as u say it is..with my first google check i found this:
 
http://pricespy.co.nz/category.php?k=602
 
thats at least 100 headphone amps!..in just one search..as far i know some premium usb dac brands do also have a headphone amp of some sort in their assortment..and yes ..most of them can be expensive...as its a nice market...speaker amps are sold many more times then a headphone amp...but u cant just say the performance of the higher end speaker amps surpass the premium headphone amps...i happen to have an amp on order that originally is based on a speaker amp the NSL....(and not costing 19.500 usd as the NSL)..for the rest its much the same....so as i wanted to say with this.....i believe many (better) headphone amps are based on speaker amps..sort of....but only modified for headphones...so thats probably harder to produce..am not a technician...so if someone can explain difference between a headphone amp and a speaker amp.other then the connectors and power.pls do..as i cant find any..

 
but i also have to agree...i once listened to a vintage mcintosh,a krell and a luxman amp also..they sounded absolutely wonderful....but those amps need good speakers to sound on their best..not some headphone..no matter how expensive the headphones are!!

 

[davidsh]

@Hifimanrookie Argh, many questions... Stax first: They need a special amplfier, and there aren't that many to chooe from. Simple as that, if you want power and enough of it, you gotta pay for it. Proper Stat amps are expensive.. Also, there is the fact that Stax in general has charged more for the amp than the headphone throughout history. That is when you buy a typical Stax system and don't go for the cheapest one available... So there are more expensive amps on the market compared to the actual headspeakers, I guess.
 
You seem to talk about how you can always hear the differences on high quality files. Must say I am sceptical. You should try for yourself and see how hard differentiating something as simple as 128 kbit/s ogg or aac can be.
 
Anywayz, speaker amps are made to deliver a hell of a lot of current compared to many headphone amps. Most speakers have an impedance around 2-8 ohms, and you need amps that can deliver enough current into those bastards. They are even way more insensitive than headphones. Else, I guess the difference between speaker and headphone amps are minor...
 
 
General question: How does output impedance of an amp affect fullsize speakers?

 

[koiloco]

Quote:

The problem is not quantity. It's quality: HE-400s bass seems cleaner and more texturized. I have no problem with HE-500s bass quantity at all.
 
 

Now that you mention, I remember someone saying that. Guess I'm not alone on this.

Yes, I was talking about bass quality improvement when running the HE500 of speaker amps.
I believe that the recommended pwr for HE500 from hifiman is a minimum 1watt into 38Ohms.  I've read this in multiple threads here and on other forums.  I guess, if your amp come close to that or have more then you are already set and don't really have to entertain the idea of speaker amps.  For myself, I am watching couple vintage Sansui, pioneer amps on ebay and locally.
 
@hifimanrookie, I know you really love your 337 by now. 

No need for you to compare it with anything else, really.  I just that hope your new coming amp will turn out well for you and you will be honest enough to share your experience/impression even in the case it doesn't turn out to be what you had hoped for.  I personally have known many people who won't admit that their purchases were bad in many other hobbies/circles in which I've involved over the years.  Also IMO, not always because of $$$$ as a constrain but the desire to experience different equipments and the "process", people like myself tend to start from the bottom and enjoy the upward journey to learn and appreciate the entire spectrum.  Some might start at the top and look down on the rest without really knowing that they might have missed something in between.  I choose not to do so.  Last but not least, there's nothing wrong with buying a $700 headphones and run it off a $50 - 100 amp if you are happy with what you are hearing.  This hobby is by far one of the most subjective hobbies I've encountered. 

 

[khaine1711]

Quote:

 
General question: How does output impedance of an amp affect fullsize speakers?

It depends on the speaker, and the amp.
 
Generally speaking, don't use speakers with a lower impedance than the speaker tap (i.e. no 4 ohm speaker on 8 ohm tap). Doing the opposite is called light loading - you might or might not like the effect.

 

[elwappo99]

Quote:

Quote:

 
The reason it bled over was that the performance on the high end speaker amps excel passed headphone amplifiers. Headphone units are such a rare and niche market there isn't a whole heck of a lot of competition. The speaker amp market is pretty heavily saturated and you can get a lot more bang / buck over there. 

high end speaker amps? ur talking about 2000usd plus amps right? as buying such an amp to just drive a headphone is a bit overkill i guess.. i just searched the net for headphone amps..to see if the market is a rare as u say it is..with my first google check i found this:
 
http://pricespy.co.nz/category.php?k=602
 
thats at least 100 headphone amps!..in just one search..as far i know some premium usb dac brands do also have a headphone amp of some sort in their assortment..and yes ..most of them can be expensive...as its a nice market...speaker amps are sold many more times then a headphone amp...but u cant just say the performance of the higher end speaker amps surpass the premium headphone amps...i happen to have an amp on order that originally is based on a speaker amp the NSL....(and not costing 19.500 usd as the NSL)..for the rest its much the same....so as i wanted to say with this.....i believe many (better) headphone amps are based on speaker amps..sort of....but only modified for headphones...so thats probably harder to produce..am not a technician...so if someone can explain difference between a headphone amp and a speaker amp.other then the connectors and power.pls do..as i cant find any..

 
but i also have to agree...i once listened to a vintage mcintosh,a krell and a luxman amp also..they sounded absolutely wonderful....but those amps need good speakers to sound on their best..not some headphone..no matter how expensive the headphones are!!

 
It seems like you're out to make a point more than learn and figure things out. 
 
The speaker amplifier market has been around for arguably 40 years now. Dedicated headphone amplifiers? Certainly not there. The audiophile market is not in headphones. The largest portion of it rests in speakers and speaker amplifiers. This is a fact. I'm not talking about main steam Harman and Denon speaker amplifiers. I'm talking about botique manufacturers that are fighting for competition. These units are tried, tested and perfected. 
 
Also, testing the HE-500 with an Onkyo receiver is a pretty bad test. Why test a mid range headphone amplifier with a bottom end speaker amplifier? 

 

[Zoom25]

Quote:

 
It seems like you're out to make a point more than learn and figure things out. 
 
The speaker amplifier market has been around for arguably 40 years now. Dedicated headphone amplifiers? Certainly not there. The audiophile market is not in headphones. The largest portion of it rests in speakers and speaker amplifiers. This is a fact. I'm not talking about main steam Harman and Denon speaker amplifiers. I'm talking about botique manufacturers that are fighting for competition. These units are tried, tested and perfected. 
 
Also, testing the HE-500 with an Onkyo receiver is a pretty bad test. Why test a mid range headphone amplifier with a bottom end speaker amplifier? 

+1

 

[Okamoto]

I don't want to start a discussion here, but it was Tyll who said he doesn't buy the thought that HE-6 needs atleast 5W to be driven properly. Many people may not care about his opinions, but I do. He has enough experience in the "game" and I tend to trust him.

 

[koiloco]

Quote:

 
The reason it bled over was that the performance on the high end speaker amps excel passed headphone amplifiers. Headphone units are such a rare and niche market there isn't a whole heck of a lot of competition. The speaker amp market is pretty heavily saturated and you can get a lot more bang / buck over there. 

+100.
 
A good speaker amp in the $$$$ range will be way better as far as perfomance/price ratio when comparing to headphone amps.  Anyday, for the reason above.

 

[hifimanrookie]

Quote:

@Hifimanrookie Argh, many questions... Stax first: They need a special amplfier, and there aren't that many to chooe from. Simple as that, if you want power and enough of it, you gotta pay for it. Proper Stat amps are expensive.. Also, there is the fact that Stax in general has charged more for the amp than the headphone throughout history. That is when you buy a typical Stax system and don't go for the cheapest one available... So there are more expensive amps on the market compared to the actual headspeakers, I guess.
 
You seem to talk about how you can always hear the differences on high quality files. Must say I am sceptical. You should try for yourself and see how hard differentiating something as simple as 128 kbit/s ogg or aac can be.
 
Anywayz, speaker amps are made to deliver a hell of a lot of current compared to many headphone amps. Most speakers have an impedance around 2-8 ohms, and you need amps that can deliver enough current into those bastards. They are even way more insensitive than headphones. Else, I guess the difference between speaker and headphone amps are minor...
 
 
General question: How does output impedance of an amp affect fullsize speakers?

thanks for the explanations about stax and speaker amps davidsh...didnt know that about the staxes...good info!
 
yes..ofcourse i can hear a difference between a 128Kbits/s and a flac/wav of 1500Kbits/s  everyone can! i mean...on my amp i can!! i can guess if ur amp is not very good in detail and instrument placement and soundstage u wont hear a lot of difference..or not so easy to hear...
 
as i said...the more i improved my rig..the better the output became...being amp modding/balanced cables/powercables/anti vibrations thingies (tube amps are horrible with microphobics!), tube rolling or headphone modding...it got better and better..and so i could hear differences easier and easier...
 
now a 128-256 kbit/s sounds awfull..as if i am listening in a tunnel (narrow soundstaget and depth) compared to a <1000Kbit/s lossless flac or wav..(on my mstage i didnt hear a big difference between the two by the way..!) or directly from a cd from my OPPO...but once again..i dont use a pc as source! i use a very musical DAP as my source with a very high gain.
 
but its all to my ears ofcourse (or my brain

)..and they are very sensitive as i said before....loud volume is painful to my ears...as is extreme treble in music..it gives me headaches and ringing in my ears...but i can hear the smallest nuances in music...i see that as a challenge..everytime i do something to my rig (like the jerg grill mod the other day) i lay down on my comfy chair and start a many hours listening session to see if i can hear new (or changed) things in the music...and until now..i did with every change in my rig.....and i will keep on doing this until the sound will get worse or no change will be found...i think i am at the max for this rig now..with everything i changed or upgraded...next step would be selling my hm602 (or only use it portable as it is intended with a good portable smaller headphone) and my 337 and get a new better amp/dac instead and guess what i did just recently...

 

[khaine1711]

Quote:

I don't want to start a discussion here, but it was Tyll who said he doesn't buy the thought that HE-6 needs atleast 5W to be driven properly. Many people may not care about his opinions, but I do. He has enough experience in the "game" and I tend to trust him.

No, it does not need 5W. If you put 5W into the He6, your eardrum will be blown at the ~2W mark, let alone 5W.
 
What it does need, like any other high end cans, is quality power. Not as finicky as the 800, but still need quality power regardless

 

[Okamoto]

Quote:

No, it does not need 5W. If you put 5W into the He6, your ear will be deaf at the ~2W mark, let alone 5W.
 
What it does need, like any other high end cans, is quality power. Not as finicky as the 800, but still need quality power regardless

Well, but that's my point. I see a lot of people here saying all you need is power. "Buy x amp. It will pump 1kkkk W into your headphones. It will drive any ortho fine"

 

[hifimanrookie]

Quote:

Well, but that's my point. I see a lot of people here saying all you need is power. "Buy x amp. It will pump 1kkkk W into your headphones. It will drive any ortho fine"

khaine said the magic words,,,QUALITY POWER...I WILL SAY ANOTHER...TOTAL CONTROL. thats what they told me also always... but i believe those 5-8watts for the he6 (or 1-2watts for the he500)is not about pure power delivery only...its ALL about control when the music gets difficult to portrait..especially with lots of dynamics in it..like a live concert of a big orchestra..alll together...for that u need current to be ready at any moment...so allthough i agree u cant listen to 5 watts before getting deaf....as its to loud..the current that strong amp can deliver can indeed be nessesary to be able to let music with more dynamic impulses shine to their brightest..imho ofcourse