[MrMateoHead]

 
There is one thing the HE400 does well that frankly I've never heard another can do as well - bass slam. The HD650 is a legendary all-rounder known for a warm tilt, whereas the HE400 is a quirky one-trick pony. But my, what a world-class trick.

A 'one trick pony'? Not when you know how to apply a little EQ, add a little sorb, and use a decent amp. What is its 'one trick' anyway? These things can sound amazing with Jazz, Rock, Hip Hop etc. Their bass performance is second to none, the midrange is great, and the treble "spike" is easily tamed + is not relevant 98% of the time.
 
I have owned a lot of Senn's and frankly i don't think they compare except perhaps in the midrange - the treble is rolled off, as is the bass (on most of them anyway). Very good, very comfortable, but just lacking transparency and speed compared to the planars. I love my Senns, but just, no. I'd recommend them mainly for their all-day comfort.
 
Less resolving overall but a better sound signature (and airy treble) are the PSB M4U1's. Good bass extension but not as much punch as the HE-400s. The NAD HP50s are probably similarly good as well. But the fit is a little on the snug side, and even my tiny ears press up against the driver grills, which I think causes fatigue after 2-4 hours of listening after a long break. Quality is also in question, to a point - I received 2 bad pairs before I got a good one.
 
Frankly, I'd probably lean toward some OPPO PM3s if I wanted something different - planar drivers, sealed, not open, and other than perhaps too "polite" in the treble, probably have the blissful balance of the PSB's with the transparency of the HE-400s. Not to mention they look comfy. That's a winning combination IMO. Not sure why they don't get mentioned more often since they are some of the more affordable planars out there.

 

[MrMateoHead]

  Hi folks,

After a lot of reading, I decided to buy some HE400S. Can't wait to get my hands on them. These will be my first pair of higher end headphones, upgrading from Grado's SR60 which served me well for 5+ years. 
 
I need some advice on amps. I have the following at my disposal, how would they perform?

- Macbook pro, no amp
- Macbook pro + FiiO E5
- FiiO X3
- Focusrite Scarlett 2i2
 
Do I really need something else? I'm going above budget to get the headphones so I'd prefer not buying anything else if these will give me acceptable results. 
Thanks a lot for your input!

 
The thing about the 400S is that it needs slightly more power than the 400's did to hit 90 dB, (34 mW vs. 33 mW).
 
Of the amps you listed the E5 would probably have enough power (around 50-100 mWs or so on tap). The X3 would probably be better, with a claimed half-watt or quarter-watt at low impedance.
 
The HifiMans are definitely in that class of headphones that I would say benefit from a dedicated amp. Without question it tightened up the sound and provided better bass. Other cans, like the PSB M4U1's that I mentioned, don't really need an amp but still like a nice clean input signal. Interestingly, they sound about as good out of my tablet as they do off my O2+ODAC.
 
Mainly I would recommend you seek out an amp with solid low-impedance drive. I use the O2 by JDS Labs, which does about a half-watt and drives the HE-400s hard and to volumes louder than I can stand. Unless you need to be 100% portable (The O2 is technically portable, but still bulky), the O2 is a solid choice. But it is, in stock configuration, probably too powerful for any highly efficient cans you might have unless you set it up for unity gain.

 

[thefitz]

 
A 'one trick pony'? Not when you know how to apply a little EQ, add a little sorb, and use a decent amp. What is its 'one trick' anyway? These things can sound amazing with Jazz, Rock, Hip Hop etc. Their bass performance is second to none, the midrange is great, and the treble "spike" is easily tamed + is not relevant 98% of the time.

The bass slam is the one trick, and in that regard I think it is world class. Really. I have entire albums I don't even bother listening to on anything other than the HE-400. The minor 1kHz spike, bizarre 2-6kHz scoop, crinkly treble, and uninspiring THD measurements are notable drawbacks. But the bass slam makes it all irrelevant.
 
I'm sorry, and I don't care if I take heat for this - I think the pure amount of modding required for this can is insane and is indicative of the fundamental issues it has. The grille mods in particular make my jaw drop at how intense they get. These aren't "untapped potential mods" like Fostex builds - these are "fix the huge fundamental problems" mods. If mods like these are required, the headphone has serious problems.
 
But, again - the bass slam makes it all irrelevant.

 

[MrMateoHead]

  The bass slam is the one trick, and in that regard I think it is world class. Really. I have entire albums I don't even bother listening to on anything other than the HE-400. The minor 1kHz spike, bizarre 2-6kHz scoop, crinkly treble, and uninspiring THD measurements are notable drawbacks. But the bass slam makes it all irrelevant.
 
I'm sorry, and I don't care if I take heat for this - I think the pure amount of modding required for this can is insane and is indicative of the fundamental issues it has. The grille mods in particular make my jaw drop at how intense they get. These aren't "untapped potential mods" like Fostex builds - these are "fix the huge fundamental problems" mods. If mods like these are required, the headphone has serious problems.
 
But, again - the bass slam makes it all irrelevant.

 
Nah no worries mate I'm not "arguing" with you, just disagreeing with you in a few areas. I don't want to over- or under-hype the issues to the uninitiated around here.
 
For one thing most people that ever bought these and reviewed them hear said they were generally "underwhelmed" by the performance. It takes a solid couple weeks of listening for your brain to adjust to these, but once it does, man, dat bass! I am one of those people - I did not at first love these. But they definitely grew on me.
 
To be fair, the HE-400 are not perfect and particularly for $400 originally, it isn't clear they would be my current "value winner". They have always had the too-long, stiff, cheap cord, comfort issues, and a sound-signature that can sound lean and harsh (at first). But given that the cost of planars only seems to be going up, I've found that it is totally worth it to take the advice of others and do basic, easy, reversible mods. Tons of headphones out there have problems and for most it probably isn't worth trying to fix them or it would be too hard to do so. But Hifiman re-issued their own HE-1000, and so clearly there is something to these types of mods that are worth doing. More importantly, they suggest that the drivers are not the ONLY thing impacting sound quality in meaningful (if hard/impossible to measure) ways.
 
I wouldn't touch my other cans since to take them apart would probably be to break them. But the 'grill mods' are ridiculously easy. So is adding self-stick sorbathane patches. EQ'ing doesn't require anything but some knowledge of EQ and something like Foobar.
 
Here are the basics:
 
1) Buy the $10 velour pads (OR, Jergpad your pleathers - remove the foam ring, cut some pleather off the back of the pads).
2) Cut 9-11 kHz by a few db. Shelf the bass from about 150 hz back by 1-3 dB. Consider a boost to 3.5 kHz of 2-4 dB. Reduce global gain to reduce chance of clipping.
3) Buy Sorbathane, remove grills, stick on sorbathane. Re-install grills. Drink a beer.
4) Get a decent amp.
5) Skip the grill mod because cosmetically, sure, but audibly, no. I did not hear better SQ with my grills removed.
6) Listen to the CD version instead of the Mp3.
 
The fundamental issue of these cans is, and was, I think, a lack of damping which different pads and some modding largely addresses. It is not at all clear that the THD (distortion) is related, because I haven't measured mine post sorbathane and can't anyway. The sorb mod cleared up congestion in the midrange significantly, as did switching to velours or using modded pleathers. Chances are, the THD would look better. To me, when the mods are easy to do, it should be done. In my home theater setup, I'd move speakers around, run auto-EQ, play with crossovers, and buy new windows if it improved the sound. What's the difference? Headphones are just 'speakers in a room' too, so if you have a good speaker and a bad room, change the room. That is pads, enclosure mods that change damping characteristics, EQ, whatever.
 
The HE-400 are in part, proof that you shouldn't judge a speaker too harshly on measurements. They may not be a benchmark reference can for Harmon International, but I still enjoy them despite having measurably better phones in my collection.
 
Certainly I wouldn't call what was once considered the best value in headphones "fundamentally flawed". There is room for improvement in many products. IF you did only ONE thing I would say to switch to the velour pads - I just never liked the stock pleather sound. OK OK and EQ down that treble spike by a few dB. That kept me very happy for 2 years.

 

[thefitz]

Very nice. I modded mine with MrSpeakers Doggie Treats which help the splashiness considerably.
 
Let me be clear - I have some great cans but always have a spot for the HE-400 because the bass slam is just awesome. I totally recommend this headphone.

 

[ilmothedude]

Without doubt it's not best engineering of headphones if performance can be enhanced so much with mods as with HE400. But as DIY person, I find it really rewarding experience when you tweak sound of the phones with these mods, and observe if mods make difference or not. And result is really outstanding, simply great. I'm really enjoying HE400 with sorb, grill mod and SRH1440 velour pads. And there might still be room for improvement, modding is great fun.

 

[richard51]

imagine the he 6 +sorbothane mod ?..

 
After all the he- 6 has the same metal cups than the he-400....

 

[Fearless1]

imagine the he 6 +sorbothane mod ?..:atsmile:

After all the he- 6 has the same metal cups than the he-400....

The 6 benifits from the Bluetac mod much more then adding sorbothane. The most important thing you need with the 6 is a quality speaker amp and pad swap and you have one of the best headphones ever made(sound wise).

 

[richard51]

The 6 benifits from the Bluetac mod much more then adding sorbothane. The most important thing you need with the 6 is a quality speaker amp and pad swap and you have one of the best headphones ever made(sound wise).

are you certain that you have try your he-6 with duro 70 sorbothane? this duro is  in my experiment the best for audio...i am curious to know... thanks 

 

[Fearless1]

are you certain that you have try your he-6 with duro 70 sorbothane? this duro is  in my experiment the best for audio...i am curious to know... thanks 

Sorbothane adds mass to the cup and eliminates resonance, the duro 70 is irrelevant as long as the damping coefficient is achieved. That being said, of course I tried it, I cant leave anything alone:The blue-tac mod is essentially the same principle but the driver is also sealed in place

 

[MrMateoHead]

Sorbothane adds mass to the cup and eliminates resonance, the duro 70 is irrelevant as long as the damping coefficient is achieved. That being said, of course I tried it, I cant leave anything alone:The blue-tac mod is essentially the same principle but the driver is also sealed in place

Do you have any idea what the trade off / coefficient would be switching from 40 duro to 70 duro, or whatever other duro?
 
With the 40 duro, 1/8" I found that doing around 50% of the cups sounded best. I had some on the driver plastic waffle grill as well and took it off. Overtime, I though it was sounding a little "dead".
 
I also stuck some on the bottom of my BluRay player, which is annoyingly loud and sitting on a bookcase with no real rubber feet of its own. That stuff sticks like glue to the player AND the bookcase. It didn't shut the drive up, but it definitely changed the noise to something more akin to a "whir" instead of a "rattle".
 
If the 70 duro was audibly better, I wonder if it was only in part because more got used. 70 duro 1/4" would seem to be approximately twice as much sorb as I am using, at the softer rating.

 

[Fearless1]

Do you have any idea what the trade off / coefficient would be switching from 40 duro to 70 duro, or whatever other duro?

With the 40 duro, 1/8" I found that doing around 50% of the cups sounded best. I had some on the driver plastic waffle grill as well and took it off. Overtime, I though it was sounding a little "dead".

I also stuck some on the bottom of my BluRay player, which is annoyingly loud and sitting on a bookcase with no real rubber feet of its own. That stuff sticks like glue to the player AND the bookcase. It didn't shut the drive up, but it definitely changed the noise to something more akin to a "whir" instead of a "rattle".

If the 70 duro was audibly better, I wonder if it was only in part because more got used. 70 duro 1/4" would seem to be approximately twice as much sorb as I am using, at the softer rating.

I actually tried both, I had to use more of the 40 then the 70 to achieve the same results. Other then that I noticed no difference.

I can only speculate that with a bigger driver and more heat generated (like that in full size speaker) the duro may make more of an impact.

I have glass shelving that most of my audio equipment sits on, I agree, it does an awesome job of holding equipment in place/adding vibration damping, and peels off with no residue!

 

[richard51]

  Do you have any idea what the trade off / coefficient would be switching from 40 duro to 70 duro, or whatever other duro?
 
With the 40 duro, 1/8" I found that doing around 50% of the cups sounded best. I had some on the driver plastic waffle grill as well and took it off. Overtime, I though it was sounding a little "dead".
 
I also stuck some on the bottom of my BluRay player, which is annoyingly loud and sitting on a bookcase with no real rubber feet of its own. That stuff sticks like glue to the player AND the bookcase. It didn't shut the drive up, but it definitely changed the noise to something more akin to a "whir" instead of a "rattle".
 
If the 70 duro was audibly better, I wonder if it was only in part because more got used. 70 duro 1/4" would seem to be approximately twice as much sorb as I am using, at the softer rating.

i dont know alas! why, but i use all of duro grade, and duro 70 in a headphone make an audible better job, and for all my piece of gear was spectacular, dac, amp, power conditioner, battery charger, and last but not least my speakers... The only thing to rtemember is that the sorb. duro 70 must be compressed to play his function optimally, not possible  with the headphones though, but with the rest of the gear, between 50 to sixty pound with duro 70 1/8 inches...It would have been more easy and simple to use a lower grade duro without a  heavy load  to compress it, but the results was not so amazing.... The results with 70 duro compressed  were so spectacular that my mind fear any  premature upgrade now...
 
I am no engineer, i think that the more dense duro absorb better the range of audio frequencies, but it is my ear experiment, not a laboratory one

 Sorry i want to answer to fearless post, but what i have to say is not specifics really...

 

[MrMateoHead]

Ah that's right we've been here before.
 
The Sorbathane info itself on acoustics is pretty nil (since I don't understand most of the specs). Whether it is 30 duro or 70 duro, it has a transmission loss rated 'greater than' 40 dB/cm @ 50 hz. That doesn't tells us a whole lot - since the transmission loss could be higher / lower at other frequencies (but it is probably higher on a curve). Perhaps Fearless1 had to use more of the 40 duro because its higher frequency damping isn't as effective. That may also be why I like the sound of less 40 duro - it retains some of the sonic character of the 'undamped' HE-400, to my ears.
 
If I can find a deal on the 70 duro I'll try it out, but for now I don't feel like spending $31 for the experiment.
 
Then there is the Dynamic Young Modulus, which seems to suggest that the softer duro is less stressed than the harder duro, by a factor of 3 or 4. Not that relevant, since in this application, there isn't enough energy or mass to threaten a tear or break.
 
In any case the "transmission loss" seems pretty interesting, as do the published impulse measures. Clearly, this stuff must be like dynamat for your headphones. It would be interesting to sheet most of a car with it and see how the NVH seems afterward. I had stuck some on my tweeter and in the 'sail' panel of my door and found it helped a tiny bit. Although I have my 5 inch mid mounted to 3/4 inch MDF, At some point if I get bored I will stick a couple-three 1 inch patches on the back of the driver to see what happens.
 
Certainly the stuff is pretty awesome for any vibrating devices you might own - I was toying with the idea of attaching it to the bottom of my computer case until I realized its pretty aggressive ability to adhere to whatever it rests upon.

 

[thefitz]

I took off my Focus pads and put back on the velour pads I originally used, and I think I'll keep them on. The Focus pads did help tame the spashiness somewhat, and added a rather noticeable amount of bass depth, but that depth slowed down the slam noticeably as well. I think for the purest HE-400 experience, you need the velour pads.