[lctong]

  Regardless, I think the point about hearing several HPs during the same setting is really helpful. That's where meets and audio events are so helpful. Or if you're lucky maybe high end retail. I've found a place where I was able to listen to the LCD-2 and X and also the Grado PS 1,000. That's a lot better than dropping $1700 or whatever for each HP individually. Actually going in with your source, and listening to both as long as you want with the same amplification.
 
If you are going from memory, you have to factor in amplification and source components. So, maybe I loved the LCD2 two years ago. Now I sit down and hear it again and compare it with an LCD-X and a HE 560. It doesn't sound as good as I remember even though I swear my auditory memory is fantastic. That happened to me recently at the store I mentioned.
 
Why? Well, the earlier Audeze didn't have the fazor technology. Even if I listen to something else, HP manufacturers can make changes as they try to refine their lines as  time goes on. Was the amplification idifferent? Can I really remember what the source from two years ago. Maybe it was hi res. Now I may be streaming from a music service or listening to mp3 files on a laptop. What was the digital stage/conversion? Has my ability to hear, my discrimination improved? Just too many variables.

 
All good points. It does seem likely that cycling through different gear setups is a pretty noisy way of reaching some kind of maximum. Yet at the limit I suspect it's demonstrable that with infinitely many trials you will end up at the same maximum (assuming that preferences are constant-hah). On the other side it's not possible to repeat trials with absolute control - trying two headphones back to back is likely to accentuate differences so that only those aspects of the feature space are remembered. Other aspects of the context may also color your shift your preferences for bright/dark etc and therefore your impressions. You also have to worry about mental fatigue, and the list kind of just goes on.
 
It may also be worth considering that there is, I think, a significant bonus for novelty.

 

[Music Alchemist]

Auditory memory (or memory in general) is kind of like driving skills. Everyone thinks they have good ones....

 
Since I've never been in a wreck, and even avoided potential wrecks caused by others, I'm going to say that I know I have good driving skills.
 

Man, when it comes to auditory memory I sure don't. Broad brushstrokes stuff sure, but the minutiae is tough, especially between high quality DACs. I recall comparing my PWDII and my Vega - even the few seconds to switch between them made the going tough.

My general memory is good, but not great like it was in later adolescence through to early/mid twenties. Back then I had what I would term a semi-photographic recall. Stuff I studied for exams I could actually read from an image of the page in my mind. I wish I still had that mind.

 
If you can't remember the differences, then they weren't major. It isn't much more complicated than that.

 

[NZtechfreak]

If you can't remember the differences, then they weren't major. It isn't much more complicated than that.

True and untrue, I think. Sometimes you can hear a difference quite clearly, but it takes a while to zero in on exactly what quality of the sound accounts for the difference. It's not a big difference, in absolute terms, but it's the sort of thing that can sway you one way or the other when you're considering long term enjoyment of one piece of gear versus another.

More importantly though: who is buying the HE-6 next?

 

[money4me247]

More importantly though: who is buying the HE-6 next?

...even more importantly: who is buying the HE-1000 next? =P

 

[Music Alchemist]

  ...even more importantly: who is buying the HE-1000 next? =P

 
Me.

 
(I can't say anything more than that it might be in my possession early next month.)

 

[markm1]

Back from the D.C. Headfi meet. Always a lot of cool new gear whenever I go to one of those things.
 
The new headphone I wanted to check out was ENIGM Acoustics' Dharma D1000. Mark Sossa of Well Pleased AV in Alexandria VA brought the Dharma prototype with the  Athena A1 Headphone amplifier. The Athena is made by the same company & pairs really nicely with the Dharama but they aren't made specifically for each other. They do work well though. It's a singled ended triode vacuum tube hybrid amp and for metal, I generally prefer solid state as-not absolutely-but as a rule-for the clarity and detail I find that a lot of tube designs blur a bit for my tastes. So, I want to hear the Dhama again on a solid state set up-preferably mine

 That said, I thought it sounded really good across genres. It's a hybrid electrostatic design. But, I'd like it with a touch less warmth which I believe was the Athena's contribution. I have little experience with electrostatic HPs or speakers. The sound is Unique. Full and lush (maybe) in the say some planars can be (read Audeze) but with a great , detailed sound. Their literature says

 they have the ability to  resolve inner detail, to reproduce music with immediacy, transparency and fouls.

 
I liked the Dharma. Full disclosure-I've done a lot of business with Mark this year and we've been come audio pals of sorts. One of his specialties in audio is putting together audiophile Audio and AV sound at a price point that average people can afford.
 
I met him at Capital Audio Fest last year in Silver Spring and he's helped me put together a speaker system. He had a system at CAF last year that I liked that was about a 4-6K system vs. the crazy 50K to over six digit sound systems you often see at the these kinds of events. Basically he's a dealer for a number of interesting products and has been able to give me some really good deals which has enabled me to put together a killer little hifi set up in a computer room which is now my listening room-basically a little 10x12 spare bedroom we use as our computer room. Now that I've got my system I'm thinking of upgrading my Grados and I knew he was also a dealer of Enigma Acoustics.
 
All that said-that I'm probably a little biased-I was pretty excited to find he was bringing the Dharma prototype-it's coming out in May I believe (will retail for about $1200) and he said the sound and aesthetics are about 90% there. I was impressed. Also spent more time with the 560 and did get a chance to listen to the HE 600. Comparing these w/ the LCD-2 which had been my high end can crush, I'm now hedging toward the neutrality of the 560 for metal. I'd like to listen to the 600 again as well. The guy that had the 600 only had pop/electronic music.
 
I'm going to save up over the summer-and do some more listening in late August at the Capital Audio Fest. Last year they had an awesome HP room. So, I do need to listen to these cans one more time.
 
I've got a Nuprime DAC-10H as part of my rig which functions as an external DAC, preamp for my stereo and HP amp. The HP amp piece of the DAC-10h-can pretty much drive everything. I'll hopefully bring my DAC-10 H to CAF in August and finally pull the trigger.
 
But biases aside, I'm seduced by the Dharama for sure.
 
Mark also had a pretty cool piece of gear called the Celsus sound Companion. Now, I don't need one for my set up, but it absolutely had the cool factor. See below. It's a portable DAC/AMP that has wireless WIFI connectivity along with  the usual USB options. I don't think there's much else out there like that. You can stream audio from a cell phone for instance or your PC. Mark used it as the DAC that he fed into his Athena amp and the Dharma. It worked out well because everyone just used their own cell phones to stream whatever they wanted to listen to. Pretty cool. For someone just getting into the hobby, you could literally use the Celus as a source if streaming was your main MO, add cans and bingo.
 
http://headphone.guru/the-celsus-sound-companion-one-a-companion-for-everyone/

 

[NZtechfreak]

  ...even more importantly: who is buying the HE-1000 next? =P

 
I might be one of those picking it up, but we'll have to see how finances pan out over the next wee while.

 

[markm1]

Postscript-in addition to the Dharma I'm going to have to give the 560 another serious hard look as a major player-it's real competition as I see it is the X-nearly twice the cost.

 

[heart banger-97]

True and untrue, I think. Sometimes you can hear a difference quite clearly, but it takes a while to zero in on exactly what quality of the sound accounts for the difference. It's not a big difference, in absolute terms, but it's the sort of thing that can sway you one way or the other when you're considering long term enjoyment of one piece of gear versus another.

More importantly though: who is buying the HE-6 next?

Have you had a chance to hear he560 and he6 side by side? I'm curious about your thoughts on their differences in presentation . which one is more laid back. Which one is more energetic. And so on
I think they are pretty pretty close in sound quality.

 

[NZtechfreak]

Have you had a chance to hear he560 and he6 side by side? I'm curious about your thoughts on their differences in presentation . which one is more laid back. Which one is more energetic. And so on
I think they are pretty pretty close in sound quality.

 
I have heard them both back to back, yes. Sonically the 6 is the better headphone, but the 560 is very good also. I would not characterise either as laid back, although well-driven the 6 is the more visceral and dynamic based on my admittedly fairly brief time with the 560. The 6 also has better bass than the 560, more textured, better slam. In general I would characterise the 560 as sounding slightly lean compared to the 6. Depending on your preference in sonic presentations and genres etc, that might actually be a positive, but for the genre we're discussing here I think not.
 
For weight and comfort and comparative ease to drive of course the 560 easily has it over the 6. We're metal fans though, so bowing and scraping before the alter of comfort ill befits us.

 

[markm1]

Have you had a chance to hear he560 and he6 side by side? I'm curious about your thoughts on their differences in presentation . which one is more laid back. Which one is more energetic. And so on
I think they are pretty pretty close in sound quality.

I personally think they are close enough to  question the $300 price difference.......I think the 560 is the better value.

 

[NZtechfreak]

I personally think they are close enough to  question the $300 price difference.......I think the 560 is the better value.

He didn't ask about value for money, I note.

You can pick up a second hand HE-6 for about $900 pretty much all the time here on Head-Fi. It's a stellar proposition at that price point.

On technical merits I think they're not world's apart, but then no high-end TOTL can is world's apart or better value than the HE-560. If metal is the particular consideration however, I think the difference between them is more pronounced.

 

[henkie196]

Happy to help with this request. On spotify, there is actually a few different versions so I tried them all out. The "Whispers In The Dark" from Comatose was recorded/mastered a bit differently from "Whispers In The Dark" from Comatose Comes Alive. (The Comatose version had softer volumes at the same settings, bass less prominent, and the imaging was a bit different on all the headphones I used; will be referring to them as C version vs CCA version). C version had the singer placed farther back from you in the beginning but moved forward later on, while CCA had the singer was much closer throughout the whole performance. First 10 seconds, there was an additional background scratchy riff on CCA underneath the cheering, pretty cool. (CCA also had this effect at a different time though). On CCA 2:40 - On LCD-X cheering mob sounds like a single blurry cheer that shifts in position (mostly L-sided moving towards center) and then more intense bass drop. HE-560 you hear more individual voices in the mob, with less blur. I think the they were using a moving mic to make this effect or they added computer effects to this. The Acoustic version was a bit boring for me. Did not really enjoy it, so didn't really analyze it. The drums at ~1:15 in Comatose was behind the singer to the center right, while on Comes Alive the drums were prominently to your left. Guitars at ~2:37 in similar R-sided position. I actually enjoyed the Come Alive version more, but I figured most people will just have the normal version, so analyzed that. Turned out writing way too much I think.
 

Spoiler: Whispers in the Dark from Comatose (detailed impressions):

At start, the piano notes had more underlying weight on the LCD-X, seemed in the foreground. More blurred effect on the LCD-X with a richer tone. The HE-560 had more spacing between the notes, shorter decay times, and the piano sounded like it was coming from perhaps a pit under the stage with notes moving from L-side to R-side. Piano sounded a bit recessed at first in comparison I guess, but then I realized this intro part is actually supposed to be much softer than the rest of the track.
0:15, there was a cool effect with a scratchy distortion riff at the R side shifting slowly behind you with a repeated note moving in a horizontal circle on the L side. On the HE-560 your attention focuses on the moving note on the left side, while the LCD-X the scratchy noise on the R was very textured (may have been grainer) so kinda split your focus between the two effects, really cool. The HE-560 sort of presented the scratchy noise on the R as distinct notes with static in between (sounded more like an instrument, the maraca perhaps?) while the LCD-X presented it as an electronic distortion-type effect as if it was a coherent scratchiness with texture moving a beat (thought it was just an electronic effect).
0:20: the drop hit harder here on the LCD-X (impact-wise), more weight to the bass notes. cymbal clashes vaguely on the R/R-back. HE-560 is more precise with the percussion instrument placement, feels like you can point to exactly where the note is coming from with the distance away, but less weight to each note. The change in dynamics volume was more dramatic in the HE-560 as the intro was not as emphasized prior, but less impact from bass notes.
0:30: a metallic distortion to the singer's voice more prominent on the LCD-X, On the HE-560, you don't actually get that metallic distortion, but you can hear a squeaky background effect on the L channel that the LCD-X picks up quite differently. The LCD-X picks up up as a more constant buzzing sound with some squeaks
0:55: nice changing bass weight that matches the singer's change in pitch on the LCD-X. Enveloping weighty bass notes with a subtle right sided emphasis on the LCD-X. HE-560, you can a distinctive tight bass definitely coming from the right. Bass overall is much faster and tighter on the HE-560, but not as prominently emphasized. Weight is still there, but not as weighty due to the more foreground emphasis of the voice and the guitars.
1:00: cymbals (lol I forgot what I was going to write here) there are actually cymbals prior to that, but I don't think I noticed them as cymbals on the LCD-X until 1:10. ah, I was going to write that the cymbals weren't as distinct and cripsy, but still had sparkle on the LCD-X. The HE-560 I picked up cymbals much earlier and can image them better.
1:15: Singer's voice lost the metallic-vibe by now, replaced with a low rough growly texture. Very organic presentation of the voice on the LCD-X. Metallic edge to his voice comes back at 1:26. HE-560 never really presented that metallic edge to the voice. Voice sounds less rough, don't get that blended textured distortion feel as much on the HE-560. Still get the very textured growly voice when the singer does that.
1:15 still: cymbals to L side, less prominent on the LCD-X, does not sound as much as distinctive cymbals (actually sounded more like an effect), so when it transitions into the electronic buzz at 1:20, don't notice the transition as much with the X. Sounded almost like an electronic effect the whole time. On the HE-560, you hear more distinctive cymbals on the L at 1:15, which transitions with an electronic whine at 1:25 into the buzzing beats. Throughout that section the LCD-X had more prominent enveloping percussion with solid weight with cymbals sounding all somewhere right sided except for a subtle shift of three cymbal notes to the L (harder to notice on the LCD-X), while the HE-560 you could pick up the precise percussion location behind your right ear, not as much underlying weight until 2:00 there is a bit more sub-bass extension.
Prior to the 2:08 solo guitar riff, the guitars do not really seem to image as well on the LCD-X, more an enveloping presentation where the guitar sound is simply everywhere and surrounding you. On the HE-560 the guitar seems located right by the singer's voice. Not has enveloping a sound. Voice slightly more prominent than the guitar usually when the bass in the background. The LCD-X had all three of those elements pretty emphasized and about equal level with the bass being most prominent followed by the guitar.
2:08 - guitar riff. very engaging on both. the way the HE-560 presents all the instruments, the guitar riff stands out more prominently among the bass (focused my attention onto the guitar solo), Can hear the distinctive cymbals note to the L at 2:23, and the 2:34 transition you can hear the two guitars L and R with the percussion notes that end in a cymbal clash clearly center stage with cymbals on the right. At 2:43 when he is singing, you can actually pick up two overlapping cymbals that blur together on your R and L side behind you, then prominently R sided cymbal clashes at 3:02 that few alternates to the L on the HE-560. On the LCD-X strangely, it sounds like cymbals were primarily behind you or L-sided through that whole performance, can image a few of the specific cymbal clashes more precisely but also get the sense that they are located behind you on the LCD-X. Very sparkly cymbals on the LCD-X, but more distinctively crispy cymbals on the HE-560. R Drumroll on 2:27 more emphasized on the LCD-X. On the LCD-X, the bass is as strong as the guitar riff (feeling the beat more on while I heard it presented this way).
2:59 - more weight to the bass notes with the LCD-X v HE-560. Cymbal imaging not as precise on the LCD-X, sounds like they are just behind you.
3:10 - imaging of the shifting percussion more precise and notes were faster on the HE-560 v LCD-X. LCD-X had more weight to each percussion note, but did not sound as fast. The amount of emphasis on the L-sided guitar on the LCD-X actually matched the emphasis of final percussion closer.

 

Spoiler: Summary for ppl who saw the detailed impressions & thought TLDR hahah

I actually didn't like the regular Comtatose version as much at first hahah. Felt a bit too bass light with my HE-560s. Was actually acceptably balanced (imo) on the LCD-X with its slight bass emphasis. The singer's presence seems more recessed in comparison to the Comes Alive version though. The Come Alive version was well-balanced with a lot of weight to the bass on the HE-560 as well, so I feel that the Comes Alive Version works well on both headphones. I may slightly prefer the presentation of the LCD-X on the normal Comatose album just due to the extra weighty bass and enveloping feel. The HE-560 picked up a lot more imaging cues and distinguished between the subtleties a lot better, but I feel like with metal you just want to rock out with the beat rather than catch all the tiny details of the different sounds. I think a bit extra warmth and richness on the LCD-X with a weighty bass emphasis that makes it very enjoyable to listen to in comparison to the balanced presentation of the sounds on the HE-560 which can be extremely resolving on all the little details and razor precise with the imaging. The details and imaging can still be noticed on the LCD-X, but get of get lost in the more enveloping sound. This in my mind would be what people talk about when they compare an organic presentation (LCD-X) vs clinical presentation (HE-560).

 
Overall, was a very enjoyable experience doing quite a few extensive back-and-forth direct comparisons of the entire song and specific portions of the tracks. Metal actually makes headphones sound quite a bit more different than some of the other genres. Really can gauge some of their relative strengths and weakness on a track like this (imo). track timings might be a bit off, kinda jotted down rough reference points after I heard the effects sometimes.
 
Hope this was interesting to read at least & sorry for the verbose nature of the comparison.

Many thanks for the detailed review. I did indeed mean the song from Comatose. If the the Comatose Comes Alive version is even louder, I'm impressed that they managed to do that without clipping, as most songs from Skillet are already a tad louder than most of the other music I have.
 
The cymbal detail is exactly what I'm looking for when evaluating audio gear, as I've noticed (when auditing speakers) that there's actually some (quite a few) speakers that just don't present these cymbals at all. From the sound of it, I'd prefer the detail of the HE-560 over that of the LCD-X. Other things to look are the fast bass drum, which will sound like a train passing by if the headphones are not fast enough / have loose bass. Though in the LCD-X and HE-560 class I wouldn't expect loose bass, of course.
 
Quote:

  But where's the extreme metal? I do listen to a lot of it, but I leave it at home. I don't find it affective comparing gear. and, honestly, most of it isn't recorded very well.
 
If time is limited and I'm mostly interested in metal-I'll just bring Tool and listen to it over and over with different gear. The most important thing I've learned -for me-is you should bring something-anything really- that you like and you know really really well....like the back of your hand so to speak.

I agree with this. I like Hatebreed and Sabaton, for instance, but for auditing they're not good differentiators. It occurred to me that if I'd only used these songs when I was looking for new speakers, I wouldn't have spent nearly as much on them, because there wouldn't be any point in it.
 
For auditing, I have a couple of songs that I like to use for different aspects.

1. Skillet - Whispers in the Dark (Comatose); treble detail and bass control
2. Yuki Kajiura - Canta per Me (Noir soundtrack); female vocals
3. Harold Faltermeyer Feat. Ambermoon - Play the Game (Two Worlds soundtrack); again female vocals, but this time for the emotion in the second refrain
4. Bach - Toccata and Fugue (Dr. Chesky); bass extension when the organ goes deep.

And usually some more songs, just to get a more overall impression. I've had it that some classical music sounded fine, but when I switched to a more modern song, suddenly the sound was all hollow.

 

[heart banger-97]

  I personally think they are close enough to  question the $300 price difference.......I think the 560 is the better value.

 
 

He didn't ask about value for money, I note.

You can pick up a second hand HE-6 for about $900 pretty much all the time here on Head-Fi. It's a stellar proposition at that price point.

On technical merits I think they're not world's apart, but then no high-end TOTL can is world's apart or better value than the HE-560. If metal is the particular consideration however, I think the difference between them is more pronounced.

Thanks,
I'm not looking for their technical differences. I believe that it's marginal. I'm more interested in the way that they present music and their sound signature and how they differ in those areas.

 

[markm1]

He didn't ask about value for money, I note.

You can pick up a second hand HE-6 for about $900 pretty much all the time here on Head-Fi. It's a stellar proposition at that price point.

On technical merits I think they're not world's apart, but then no high-end TOTL can is world's apart or better value than the HE-560. If metal is the particular consideration however, I think the difference between them is more pronounced.

That's totally fair. With some of the future HE-6 market potentially going to the 1000, this may be a great time go get a HE-6 particularly if they discontinue the 600.
 
Also, going to the meet reminds me how the Headfi demographic tends to be very young and/or engineer/IT personality types

.  There's definitely the geek factor. I'm a lot less detailed oriented -more of a big picture/broad bush, liberal arts, right brain guy.
 
And, I'd like one ring to rule them all so to speak across genres with maybe 30% non metal listening. Way off topic, but for jazz I think the 560 would be really good.
 
 I'm sure the HE-6 is fantastic. I just find the overall presentation of the 560 to be very compelling, detailed and neutral. I listened to a couple of "bass" tracks-FKA twiggs which is not metal. I thought the 560 presented it competently but didn't give the same weight as the Audeze line or Dharma. I would guess the HE-600 would have more bass impact. But that would be more of an issue (for my listening) to pop/electronic and hip hop which is a very miniscule portion of my listening.