[Quadman]

  @Quadman
 
Thanks so much for that information. I'm a little releived to hear that. 
I will currently be using the balanced outputs with the JBL LSR305s, do you think the 6.6v output voltage cause any problems? Also, does it output higher voltages on the RCA outputs as well? Because I am planning to add a headphone amp on the RCAs at some point and dont want to fry the amp/loud pops on the headphones lol .. 
And since you mention it outputs higher voltage, I'm assuming you need to keep the volume lower than at full volume right? So, at what point in the 100 step volume does the X20 actually starts affecting the bitstream? 
 
And, although this does not add any value to this thread, but I'll ask it anyway, any thoughts about the NFB-28, which is the one I'm considering as well. Any comments on the Audio-gd's descrete/complex looking designs with 1x9018 vs Gustard's surface mount board + 2x9018 design. (Leaving aside the obvious difference that the NFB-28 comes with a headphone amp)

Ric measured 3.3 V on the RCA outs so make sure the headphone amp has the "headroom".  I believe each 6 dB change in volume half's or doubles the voltage (depending which way you go), so -6 dB would be 1.65V on RCA and 3.3V on Balanced, -12 would be half those numbers again.  I generally play my gustard in the -11 to 0 range and I can tell no difference in SQ between those numbers.  Not really sure when an audible effect would occur but it would probably be lower than -20 dB.  As far as SQ this dac is way above its price point.
 
I know nothing of the NFB-28 but one the first thread here Marty does a mini review of 4 Dacs. http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?20090-DACs-Galore-and-Expectation-Bias
I'd say the Gustard Holds its own.
 
@Wynnytsky  I use dexoit as my cleaner/contact enhancer have been pleased with it.  Ric keeps talking about Quantum Chips and the improvement they make on this Dac, I still am unable to pull the trigger on buying some, maybe to much voodoo.

 

[Triplefun]

I have a X20 coming and would like to use the Is2 input, would Gustard U12 work better matched up with the X20 with DSD. Will be using a mac mini and jriver.

I believe the x20 sounds its best with all input upsampled to DSD, the higher the better. I think this is a characteristic of the es9018. Note the es9018 up samples everything internally also to DSD!

 

[Wynnytsky]

  I believe the x20 sounds its best with all input upsampled to DSD, the higher the better. I think this is a characteristic of the es9018. Note the es9018 up samples everything internally also to DSD!

 
I second that the X20 (or perhaps the 9018) is at it's best doing DSD (even converted mp3s).  I wouldn't be surprised if some of the design decisions that made DSD playback better, also made PCM less listenable.  Perhaps the best chip for low-sample rate PCM are the those vintage R2R chips, where more interpolation/smoothing (guess work?) is required.
 
Quadman said he's dropping the vol as low as -11dB.  I've always assumed that dropping source volume could only rob you of information, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.  At -4dB and below the gustard is sounding more conventional, but some recordings might become more listenable (especially at high volumes).  When I get bored or I just want more insight into a high res or old recording that's lacking dynamics, then I'll move up the scale.  And even though an upping of volume on the x20 is matched by dropping the volume on my integrated amp (ie: so same final volume) the final result is indeed different.  I'm always getting more dynamics and separation when the X20 is closer to 0dB.  It's like a variable hifi version of the loudness button that was on all receivers in the 90s.  Perhaps digital attenuation on DSD dacs will become as essential as a balance knob on a preamp or integrated.

 

[MINORISUKE]

  .....
Note the es9018 up samples everything internally also to DSD!

I have never heard of this.  Can you show me the official source?

 

[sr2002]

Thats good information guys. I'm quite happy I across these threads! 
 
Can you guys please point me to some good places I could get some DSD music? Or even flac?
Are all of the services paid? Some of the albums on HD tracks actually cost more than buying the actual audio cd on Amazon so is it better to just CDs and rip them? 
 
Are Spotify and Tidal any good? 
Please send me links through PM if necessary if there are any good resources to download or stream music. 
 
Since, you guys say that the voltage on the RCA and the XLR are larger than most other standard DACs, is it possible to directly hook up headphones like the ATH-M50x (which i currently own) directly to the RCA and control it through the internal volume. I understand the high impedance headphones will probably not work this way but what about the entry level ones like the ones I have? (Please feel free to suggest some good low impedance headphones) 

 

[Turn&cough]

Hi,
 
I've been hearing about the X20 for some time now but it somehow slipped under my radar and have just began reading up on it a bit more. In fact all the rave reviews and reasonable price have now got me considering it as my next DAC.
After owning two 9018 based DACs (kept one, sold the other) I had decided that the next time around I'd be looking for something different.
The one I sold was the also well received Yulong DA8. I was just not that impressed with it. It had detail, lot's of bass and on ''OK'' headphone output but I found it lacked musicality and at times was cold and unbearably unforgiving. Not my cup of tea.
 
My question is: Have any of you owned or compared both the DA8 and the X20 and how are they different (or the same)? In other words I don't want to go down that road again.
 
Thanks

 

[hyperdanny]

I KNEW it had to happen...the one thing that always left me worried about my X-20 was (construction quality wise) the incredibly unwieldy on/off knob...every time I'd use it I had to apply so much force that I would think "one day this thing is gonna snap"..well yesterday it finally happened..turning it off the damn thing broke: it didn't quite "snap", it sort of "slid away".
Fact is that now the knob in unhinged (thankfully, on the "on" position) and to turn it off I have to unplug it.
Kinda suckey.

 

[Quadman]

   
I second that the X20 (or perhaps the 9018) is at it's best doing DSD (even converted mp3s).  I wouldn't be surprised if some of the design decisions that made DSD playback better, also made PCM less listenable.  Perhaps the best chip for low-sample rate PCM are the those vintage R2R chips, where more interpolation/smoothing (guess work?) is required.
 
Quadman said he's dropping the vol as low as -11dB.  I've always assumed that dropping source volume could only rob you of information, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.  At -4dB and below the gustard is sounding more conventional, but some recordings might become more listenable (especially at high volumes).  When I get bored or I just want more insight into a high res or old recording that's lacking dynamics, then I'll move up the scale.  And even though an upping of volume on the x20 is matched by dropping the volume on my integrated amp (ie: so same final volume) the final result is indeed different.  I'm always getting more dynamics and separation when the X20 is closer to 0dB.  It's like a variable hifi version of the loudness button that was on all receivers in the 90s.  Perhaps digital attenuation on DSD dacs will become as essential as a balance knob on a preamp or integrated.

I agree that the X20 sounds simply wonderful up sampling to DSD.  I use a buffered preamp, it has no remote volume control so I use the gustard as my volume control.  As you know CD's/streams vary in volume from album to album. Since my SE tube amp is limited to 18 watts/chnl I use a fast acting LED meter to monitor my amps output.  I vary the x20's volume to keep the power output about the same, hence the SPL's are apprx the same.  With the amp hitting 9 watt peaks I can tell no sonic difference between the X20 at -1 or -2 db to -11 db.  Stage size is the same, images do not get larger or smaller, dynamics are the same and that palpable presence also seems the same, my involvement in the music is unchanged at those volumes as well.  Luckily my speakers are about 91 db efficient, and my tube amp only has to drive the midrange and tweeter also the impedance and phase curves are very amp friendly.  Since the X20 volume is in the digital domain and the chip is 32 bit you would have to turn it down a lot to affect it's resolution.  If I am not mistaken, and I may well be, each 6db of volume attenuation is supposed to reduce resolution by 1 bit, since the dac is 32 bit you have 8 bits before you reduce to 24 bit resolution, 6X8= -48db on the volume control. So mathematically at least -12db should have almost zero effect on the sound.

 

[Quadman]

  I KNEW it had to happen...the one thing that always left me worried about my X-20 was (construction quality wise) the incredibly unwieldy on/off knob...every time I'd use it I had to apply so much force that I would think "one day this thing is gonna snap"..well yesterday it finally happened..turning it off the damn thing broke: it didn't quite "snap", it sort of "slid away".
Fact is that now the knob in unhinged (thankfully, on the "on" position) and to turn it off I have to unplug it.
Kinda suckey.

Thats no big deal, I deliberately disconnected the on/off switch in the mod process described further back in this thread.  I too have to unplug to turn my unit off, but I leave it on all the time so no big deal.  Are you handy?  can you solder?  you might just want to remove those plugs and solder the ac wires directly to the IEC inlet (tweakaudio.com) for a better explanation.  Also while in there twist those AC wires too, you will be surprised how much better it sounds, then add an audiophile fuse and smile

 

[Wynnytsky]

  I KNEW it had to happen...the one thing that always left me worried about my X-20 was (construction quality wise) the incredibly unwieldy on/off knob...every time I'd use it I had to apply so much force that I would think "one day this thing is gonna snap"..well yesterday it finally happened..turning it off the damn thing broke: it didn't quite "snap", it sort of "slid away".
Fact is that now the knob in unhinged (thankfully, on the "on" position) and to turn it off I have to unplug it.
Kinda suckey.

 
I'm at work, but isn't there a lock nut of some sort in that hole that probably just needs tightening?

 
When I ordered my X20 in Aug 2015 I had to wait a month while they modified the design to allow for a beafier power switch.  Perhaps you got one of the originals?
I intend to have this DAC in the on position at all times and use my P3 reconditioner to power it on/off, but until then I'm also flipping that scary dial.

 

[hyperdanny]

 
 Are you handy?  can you solder?  

Unfortunately not. My father was that kind of audio guy, but he's gone, and I didn't learn.
Tks though.

 

[Quadman]

I'm at work, but isn't there a lock nut of some sort in that hole that probably just needs tightening?

 
When I ordered my X20 in Aug 2015 I had to wait a month while they modified the design to allow for a beafier power switch.  Perhaps you got one of the originals?
I intend to have this DAC in the on position at all times and use my P3 reconditioner to power it on/off, but until then I'm also flipping that scary dial.
 
 
 
Yes try tightening that little screw there with a small 1.5 or 2mm allen wrench (my guess), it could be it just came loose.  There is probably a flat side on the metal shaft that the knob is attached to, it would be best to tighten it to that flat side.  I got my dac in March and it looks like they even modded the board a bit more by putting the ac filtering on the inside of the board towards the front panel, the picture above it is towards the Tranny's.


 

 

[Wynnytsky]

 
I agree that the X20 sounds simply wonderful up sampling to DSD.  I use a buffered preamp, it has no remote volume control so I use the gustard as my volume control.  As you know CD's/streams vary in volume from album to album. Since my SE tube amp is limited to 18 watts/chnl I use a fast acting LED meter to monitor my amps output.  I vary the x20's volume to keep the power output about the same, hence the SPL's are apprx the same.  With the amp hitting 9 watt peaks I can tell no sonic difference between the X20 at -1 or -2 db to -11 db.  Stage size is the same, images do not get larger or smaller, dynamics are the same and that palpable presence also seems the same, my involvement in the music is unchanged at those volumes as well.  Luckily my speakers are about 91 db efficient, and my tube amp only has to drive the midrange and tweeter also the impedance and phase curves are very amp friendly.  Since the X20 volume is in the digital domain and the chip is 32 bit you would have to turn it down a lot to affect it's resolution.  If I am not mistaken, and I may well be, each 6db of volume attenuation is supposed to reduce resolution by 1 bit, since the dac is 32 bit you have 8 bits before you reduce to 24 bit resolution, 6X8= -48db on the volume control. So mathematically at least -12db should have almost zero effect on the sound.

for me @ 0dB the instrument peaks seem to be louder/higher, and that makes the background appear even quieter.  And I get this dumb grin that doesn't wipe off easy.  My path from PC to X20 looks like this:  Oyide => iFi iUSB 3.0 => iFi Gemini => iFi iPurifier 2 => Tanly => Mapleshade Vivilink 2
 
My PV-12 tube pre also lacks a remote, and that is what I'll have in front of 91dB Vapor Audio Stiff Breeze.  A Bryston B60R to push 105dB horns.  The X20 sourcing both chains, with those XLR adapters I guess.

 

[hyperdanny]

@Quadman and Wynnytsky
thanks for the suggestions..as I said I'm not a handy man, and actually the idea of opening a component kinda gives me the creeps, but I guess that sooner or later I'll have to get over it and try to fix it.
Luckily the X-20 is linked to the grid via an isolation transformer, so in the meantime I can just switch the tranny off.
(yes I know that many like to keep their stuff "on" all the time, but I could never do it, I have my good reasons to be a little paranoid about grid blackouts and/or surges..once I had a component fried).
It's all just annoying, I've been in a crappy mood all weekend.--and over here in Italy for Easter we get a long 3-day weekend.
 
PS for the records my X-20 was ordered Oct 2015 from Kidult ..I don't know if it could actually be some sort of first batch..

 

[Wynnytsky]

  (yes I know that many like to keep their stuff "on" all the time, but I could never do it, I have my good reasons to be a little paranoid about grid blackouts and/or surges..once I had a component fried)

 
This weekend the microwave+toaster conspired against my X20 and flipped a breaker.  Why there's a breaker feeding basement+1st+2nd floor is beyond me.  Living a couple blocks from my power station cannot save me from bad wiring.  So much to fix in this home, it's no wonder I'm still listening on home made computer speakers (2.5" fostex mini-horns).
 
If you want a good cheap conditioner that will ride you through brown outs, I recommend this one:
http://boise.craigslist.org/ele/5461787407.html (in silver)
http://grandforks.craigslist.org/ele/5491957091.html (in black)
The idea if to leave all your stuff in the on position and the conditioner is a fancy power strip that turns on your audio xmas tree, so you don't ware out the switches on your gear.