[Zanth]

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Originally Posted by IEATTEFLON /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have yet to see full regulation and safety labels on any headphone amplifier whether from a DIY or other.

E.A.R./Yoshino.

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I would appreciate it if you gave me a list of headphone amp manufacturers that you think is legit and operates fully within the law in being UL certified with an actual business license/tax etc etc.

E.A.R./Yoshino

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I would also appreciate a pointer to any patents that these legitimate amp makers hold since you think that DIY'ers for sale rip off their designs for profit. Ripping off original ideas with copyrights and patents is a serious crime. The only legit company with a team of engineers I can think of is Headroom. Grado obviously didn't patent their amplifier since it is a very common NJM4556 headphone amplification circuit commonly found in 80-90's Sony equipment and similar.

Maybe not a team but certainly one of the world's most gifted engineers: E.A.R./Yoshino.

 

[leitztozeiss]

Just want to clarify some statements in this thread . . .

First, manufacturers submit products to UL for testing and safety certification on a voluntary basis. Use of UL is not required by law.

Second, a manufacture protects its novel/nonobvious circuit designs with a patent - not a copyright. It's not a crime to infringe a patent - just potentially expensive. Infringement of a patent presents the potential for civil action against the infringer by the patent holder.

Third, it is very common to obtain patents on improvements of existing designs. It is possible for a company, such as Grado, to improve a well known design and obtain a patent on that improvement if its found to be "novel" and "nonobvious" by the patent office.

 

[rickcr42]

Quote:

First, manufacturers submit products to UL for testing and safety certification on a voluntary basis. Use of UL is not required by law.

no but it DOES give the consumer a certain comfort level that he/she knows they can go to sleep at night without first checking to see if the smoke alarm batteries are fresh.as for "Law" RoHs is LAW so if you want to skirt it you ship plain brown wrapper or take your chances with financial ruin if a small operator working on small profit margins

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Second, a manufacture protects its novel/nonobvious circuit designs with a patent - not a copyright. It's not a crime to infringe a patent - just potentially expensive. Infringement of a patent presents the potential for civil action against the infringer by the patent holder.

yes it IS illegal to infringe on a patent for PROFIT and why there is that rpotection in law ! The fact that outlaw nations/sellers refuse to recognise established rules of fair commerce does not make it right and the only reason it works is the consumer who wants a free ride,usually a consumer that more than others can afford the full retail price since this is not exactly a hobby of the poor no matter what the chatter in the forums.Poor folks think about food and shelter with music an afterthought.Folks without worry about surviving turn their attention to "hobbies" and are in a position to say "well the amp for $200 is a better bargain than the $400 one....."

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Third, it is very common to obtain patents on improvements of existing designs. It is possible for a company, such as Grado, to improve a well known design and obtain a patent on that improvement if its found to be "novel" and "nonobvious" by the patent office.

not entirely sure where all this "patent" stuff comes from but no matter,there is still such a thing as fair play and those who always cut corners to get what they want because they aLWAYS get what they want no matter who gets hurt and to be honest ?

don't have zip on the respect scale for those types they being too close for comfort to all the snake oil salesman down the centuries who at least back in the day would take an a*s whipping as they were chased out of town and told to never come back.not that it mattered much there always being another town of suckers just up ahead

again,just my own minority view personal opinion,no affiliation,no animals harmed in the filming of,yadda yadda yadda..................

rickmongo out................

 

[OpusRob]

OK, so where does a newbie go to get a nice battery operated amp for his 'pod, super fi's, and especially his sr -225's, when you take the RA-1 off the table, assuming I have about $400 to spend tops?

 

[Zanth]

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Originally Posted by OpusRob /img/forum/go_quote.gif OK, so where does a newbie go to get a nice battery operated amp for his 'pod, super fi's, and especially his sr -225's, when you take the RA-1 off the table, assuming I have about $400 to spend tops?

Headamp
Headroom
Meier Audio
Ray Samuels Audio


Among others.

 

[leitztozeiss]

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Originally Posted by rickcr42 /img/forum/go_quote.gif no but it DOES give the consumer a certain comfort level that he/she knows they can go to sleep at night without first checking to see if the smoke alarm batteries are fresh.

1) My comments about UL certification were in response to IEATTEFLON's statement, "operates fully within the law in being UL certified". UL certification has nothing to do with operating a business within the law. Your response addressing the purpose of UL and the comfort UL provides to consumers is non sequitur.

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Originally Posted by rickcr42 /img/forum/go_quote.gif As for "Law" RoHs is LAW . . ..

2) Um, no. Wrong. What does RoHs have to do with UL certification? ROHS (Restriction of Hazardous Substances Directive) was adopted in February 2003 by the European Union, but is not a law; it is a directive that seeks to restrict the use of six specific hazardous materials in the manufacture of various types of electronic and electrical equipment.

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Originally Posted by rickcr42 /img/forum/go_quote.gif yes it IS illegal to infringe on a patent for PROFIT and why there is that rpotection in law ! . . .

2) Um, no. Wrong again. I said patent infringement is not a crime. I did not say it is not illegal, i.e. against a law. An "illegal" act can be criminal and/or civil. "Criminal" means you can go to jail. "Civil" means you might have to pay $$. Patent infringement is a civil tort, which means you may have to pay $$ to the patent holder. And, if your infringement was wilful, you may have to pay $$$$$$ to the patent holder.

I'm not trying to fight anyone here . . . just trying to clean up the use of certain legal terms in this thread.

 

[leitztozeiss]

 

[rickcr42]

OK.i can dig it,we would rather play word games to dust up the landscape so the true nature of what is and is not fair play and fair trade can be lost in the shuffle because we both know wjen you lose the onlookers you win the battle by default.

RoHs.

you want to call it a "directive" fine.Tell anyone who gets caught pushing non compliant consumer electronics products in those countries that enforce the directive they don't have to pay any fines because "just an optional guideline bubba,we don't really mean anything by it,sorry if we inconvenienced/confused ya"

Patents

Only a crook,a dishnest person lets someone else do all the work while they profit and that is "Rick's Law" plain and simple.Any badd deed can be justified in certain quarters and have a small segment think thse justifications pefectly fine.....if they have something to gain by their being fine............

Me personally ? old school.I don't need a piece of paper or a skilled lawyer to tell me when a thing is right or wrong only what I can and can not get away with and i'm a firm beleiver in there being no such thing as a part time cheater or a part time thief only big thiefs and little ones with the little wishing they had a bigger cut of the take

 

[gmckay]

Can we get back to the issue brought forth from the OP? You know...value for money???

 

[leitztozeiss]

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Originally Posted by rickcr42 /img/forum/go_quote.gif OK.i can dig it,we would rather play word games to dust up the landscape so the true nature of what is and is not fair play and fair trade can be lost in the shuffle because we both know wjen you lose the onlookers you win the battle by default. RoHs. you want to call it a "directive" fine.Tell anyone who gets caught pushing non compliant consumer electronics products in those countries that enforce the directive they don't have to pay any fines because "just an optional guideline bubba,we don't really mean anything by it,sorry if we inconvenienced/confused ya" Patents Only a crook,a dishnest person lets someone else do all the work while they profit and that is "Rick's Law" plain and simple.Any badd deed can be justified in certain quarters and have a small segment think thse justifications pefectly fine.....if they have something to gain by their being fine............ Me personally ? old school.I don't need a piece of paper or a skilled lawyer to tell me when a thing is right or wrong only what I can and can not get away with and i'm a firm beleiver in there being no such thing as a part time cheater or a part time thief only big thiefs and little ones with the little wishing they had a bigger cut of the take

Rickcr42 - I hear you man . . . I really do. Aside from the loose use of legal terms, I generally agree with whatever it is you said.

 

[leitztozeiss]

Btw, I did not mean to further derail this thread. Steering back to topic . . .

IMO, what it should come down to is sound quality and what one is willing to pay for sound quality. The inquiry, I think, is threefold. Does the RA1 make a difference in what one hears from his source through his headphones? If there is a difference, is it an improvement? And, if the difference is an improvement, is it worth the price paid? For me, the answer to these is no.

Nonetheless, I recognize that there are many happy RA1 owners with no regrets in paying for the improvement in sound that they hear, or the look and feel of the wood and how it matches their RS1/RS2/GS1000 headphones.

 

[rickcr42]

also back to topic :

Mike AKA Pink Floyd had apparently missed all the previous hoopla over the RA-1 but in a nutshell was a fairly highly regarded amp until some knuclhead with too much time on his hands and obviously enough disposable loot to destroy a $450 headphone amp reverse enginneered it and forever answered the "I wonder what is in there" question.

that the Op amp was one no one else had discovered previously thus never considered as a viable engine to drive Grado cans meant little once it was also discovered this "mystery chip" could be had for less than a buck retail in small quatities.no longer was the question if or if not the amp had good sonics but was more "how can they sell an amp for that much with a $.39 chip inside !?!?"

Did not matter that SOMEONE had to actually weed through many op amps to find THE ONE then once in hand try and optimise the circuit.Did no longer matter that here was an amp that provided more than enough current to properly drive Grado Headphones withut the additonal complexity of a two stage opamp/buffer headphone amp or paralleled opamps,did not matter that the DC offset was no problemo even with a simple "dual nines" power source.Nope.all that mattered is the chip did not cost $20 per so the amp went form cult status to the crap pile in a dash.

Funny thing here is the amp was ripped apart in the forums yet everyone was more than eager to gobble up clones,clones no more than a rip off of anothers work yet because they could now identify every single part inside and remake a version of the original valid amps while the legit amps wer looked at as somehow evil by nature of someone actually trying to make a legitimate profit for an amp no more or no less than as advertised.

OK Cool.Folks want to cut out the honest dealers and go to cloners fine.They have to live with the choice not me though IF ME being blatantly ripped off would play a lot less nice with others than Grado Labs has all things considered

anyway the question "does the amp improve upon the signal from the source ?"

Could be rabbit,could be.If you are using the headphones the amp was designed to drive,headphones bearing the same company name at the MINIMUM you can be assured the sunergy will be a good one but is it needed ?

Depends on what you are aiming to achive.If it is just getting the cans to play with enough volume to enjoy music then no.NO amp is needed.Period.Grado cans can be driven straight out of any headphone jack on any device i have ever plugged them into with the only difference being not in volume but extension and power and if you want Grados to sing as they can then you need to have a source of power that has a high current reserve relative to that reqquired by any other headphones known to me.This heavy current demand also means an very low output impedance and by low I am talkin' in the 2-10 ohm range if you want the best possible sonics so if the question above is asked in the context of getting the absolute best sonic quality from a can that demands certain parameters not needed by other manufacturer designs then yes.The Grado is an amp that you would have to spend considerabley more to better being more part of a "system" than it is a stand alone universal headphone amp and like it or not NO AMP can be made that will be the ideal for both high impedance,voltage hungry,low efficiency cans AND low impedance,current hungry,high efficiency cans without going to great lengths to in effect have to entirely different amp profiles under the hood.Just the way it is no matter how much we wish it were not that way

No best just good combinations

 

[leitztozeiss]

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Originally Posted by rickcr42 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Did not matter that SOMEONE had to actually weed through many op amps to find THE ONE then once in hand try and optimise the circuit. Did no longer matter that here was an amp that provided more than enough current to properly drive Grado Headphones withut the additonal complexity of a two stage opamp/buffer headphone amp or paralleled opamps,did not matter that the DC offset was no problemo even with a simple "dual nines" power source.Nope.all that mattered is the chip did not cost $20 per so the amp went form cult status to the crap pile in a dash.

Well said - I agree.

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Originally Posted by rickcr42 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Depends on what you are aiming to achive.If it is just getting the cans to play with enough volume to enjoy music then no.NO amp is needed.Period.Grado cans can be driven straight out of any headphone jack on any device i have ever plugged them into with the only difference being not in volume but extension and power and if you want Grados to sing as they can then you need to have a source of power that has a high current reserve relative to that reqquired by any other headphones known to me.This heavy current demand also means an very low output impedance and by low I am talkin' in the 2-10 ohm range if you want the best possible sonics so if the question above is asked in the context of getting the absolute best sonic quality from a can that demands certain parameters not needed by other manufacturer designs then yes.The Grado is an amp that you would have to spend considerabley more to better being more part of a "system" than it is a stand alone universal headphone amp and like it or not NO AMP can be made that will be the ideal for both high impedance,voltage hungry,low efficiency cans AND low impedance,current hungry,high efficiency cans without going to great lengths to in effect have to entirely different amp profiles under the hood.Just the way it is no matter how much we wish it were not that way No best just good combinations

Good points . . . I agree.

 

[rickcr42]

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Can we get back to the issue brought forth from the OP? You know...value for money???

BTW-caught the FULL text in my email notification but will ignore it,thanks Zanther

I beleive "value for money" means many things and why I attempted to make what i beleived wer valid comparisons so to go off tangent again for a moment

Say some idiot robbed my wedding band then pawned it for $20.The pawn shop proprietor KNOWS he is likely buying hot goods but still,seeing a shot a nice tidy profit is willing to take a hit for the twenty spot and maybe even the legal fees if it should go to court since when you add up all thos twenties we begin to get to REAL MONEY territory and if the gravy train lasts say three or four years before the gestappo catches his butt he still will have made a nice tidy sum that even after court fees will be in the black.

Along comes a guy looking for a wedding band.He HAS enough loot to go to a proper jewelry store and purchase a ring from a reputable dealer,one that will back the product to the hilt satisfied customers being the cornerstone of his business,but man,he HATES parting with any more cash than is absolutley neccessary and like the former party buying hot goods is more the "roll the dice maybe i will get lucky while saving/making a buck" type than one who takes the high road.He is the guy that if he finds your wallet may or may not return it to you but you can be damn sure if he does it will be empty with him claiming he found it like that !

So we have a big thief,the guy who actually stole the goods,a middle theif,the guy who knowingly purchsed the goods for a damn good price,and a possible theif.This dude knows that for the price he paid something is not 100% on the up and up because he knows what the retail value of the ring is but being that he is not intersted in paying more will conveniently not think about just how he manged to save so much if the deal was an honest one.Called having a concience of convenience in these parts.......


So as things usually go the theif gets caught eventually,all theives do unless they stop theiving,and he having no code and no honor gives up the pawn shop guy to the police and he wanting no part of going down for the count is willing to give up all the "customers" who he had sold stolen goods.At this time the police proceed to go to each and every dwelloing and recover these goods so they can be returned to the proper owners with the end result that the original thief will get his "skid bid" slap on the wrist,the pawn shop proprietor will be inconvenienced a bit,not much due to him giving everyone up but a bit and STILL willl have all his profits,and the cistomer ?

Nothing for him at which time he will claim to be an innocent taken by crooks.an old story.

Is the Grado RA-1 a good value for the amount of cash outlay ?

It is my opinion having heard and built every conceivable type of headphone amp known to humans that used with Grado headphones you would be hard pressed to better it for the sdame amount of loot and could even do a lot worse for a whole lot more which for many is good enough.this assumes a proper amp from a proper manufacturer not something whipped on on the bench which if you think about it after all the parts gathering and the time spent on assembly then casing the sucker up in an attempt to make the amp presentable and if you consider time money as in your own time is valuable then you saved what in the end ?

I'm thinking not a lot if any



P.S.

OK,I lied.I won't entirely ignore the edited parts even though i probably should.sooooooooo.......


I Will match my 10K plus post count on "quality" of content,on the pure information to topic merits against any headfi five members with any of those five that come close likely being the ones i personally respect the mostr around this joint so even though I have been inactive for a spell and have been a tad low profile you can keep your cracks to yourself until you can match my record on both counts and that my freind is no easy task.I AM the rickmonster after all

 

[gmckay]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickcr42 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Is the Grado RA-1 a good value for the amount of cash outlay ? It is my opinion having heard and built every conceivable type of headphone amp known to humans that used with Grado headphones you would be hard pressed to better it for the sdame amount of loot and could even do a lot worse for a whole lot more which for many is good enough.this assumes a proper amp from a proper manufacturer not something whipped on on the bench which if you think about it after all the parts gathering and the time spent on assembly then casing the sucker up in an attempt to make the amp presentable and if you consider time money as in your own time is valuable then you saved what in the end ? I'm thinking not a lot if any

Well, I can appreciate your opinion on value of a RA-1 vs. the time and quality expended on a DIY kit, however, thats not necessarily the metric in which a serious consumer would choose to distiguish value for money.

I'll ask you based on your knowledge of the myriad of quality manufacturers producing amps that mesh well with Grados...is the RA-1 good value for money versus other competing amps in the same price range?