[robm321]

^ Its a private company, so how would you find all that out?

Small overhead is all relative, but $350 items are not going to cover much in regards to rent, health insurance, parts cost, and profit.

 

[Zanth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by robm321 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm not sure if I buy the glue = "make it difficult to replicate". I mean how hard is it to melt glue. Anyone half serious about cloning could do it in what... 20 minutes. That seems like a big waste of glue for not much pay off. I stick with my crack pot theory that it has something to do with vibration controll or to keep crosstalk down.?.

No doubt this could be an answer, but I'm no EE so I will let folks with the knowledge comment on whether this is even worthwhile or not. Regardless, I think n_mahler is dead on, we don't want Grado going out of business and those that buy the amp should really only hope that it sounds good and is backed up by a solid warranty. The latter holds true for all, the former holds true for quite a few folks.

 

[Zanth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenhorn /img/forum/go_quote.gif

Yes we all know your thoughts on this one man. We've been over it at least a dozen times in the last year. For those living in the UK, they have their options. I'm sure plenty of folks would love to own an EAR HP4 for 2.2k USD new. Oh...but they can't at least not the North American folks. Instead they get to deal with a 4.8-5.0k MSRP. Hmmm, see how that works? It is not just Grado. Deal with it.

 

[Zanth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hciman77 /img/forum/go_quote.gif There seems to be a lot of speculation here about costs and overheads. It seems that at one and the same time Grado is a small specialist company with low sales of an exotic item and yet a big company with massive overheads and costs It would be informative to know a few actual numbers before making a judgment on purely economic grounds. viz 1) How many units do Grado sell is it 100s or 1000s Volume of direct sales Volume of sales to resellers 2) Total unit parts costs inc the Wooden Block 3) Per unit labour costs - if handmade onshore this will be relatively high 4) Actual advertising/marketing budget for this line / no of units 5) per unit storage costs for unsold items 6) Price they sell item at both direct and to resellers 7) Wasteage - i.e duff unsellable units 8) Warranty returns costs and policy - do they repair or replace 9) R & D Costs A big company has big overheads but also has high sales and big economies of scale, a small company has small overheads but low sales and few economies of scale. A big company with low sales makes no sense unless it the product is very very expensive.

They are big enough to have a distribution/dealer network setup for their products. They have employees, pay out benefits etc. No small time headphone amp manufacturer has the same expenses. Meaning...if manufacturer who does direct or near direct sales to Head-fi sells for $350, and the amp costs $50, they pocket all the $350 and after cost of parts and contribution to salaries and other business expenses, it would not be outrageous to think that said person would be looking at a $200+ clear profit. For Grado, as is typical of larger manufacturers who do use a distribution network, they likely sell for $150-175 to the distributor/dealer, meaning after their parts cost...they are dealing witha max of $100-125 which they get to play with, of course...other expenses come into play and if these amps are in sufficient demand, they may have storage costs too. Something the smaller ones may not have to worry about, not to menti0on the large difference in salaries/benefits etc.

The point? Grado is not Sennheiser or Sony, but Grado is far from a 1 man operation. Sennheiser and Sony enjoy economy of scale, Grado is small enough to not benefit like they do, but large enough that their costs are far higher than your Ray Samuels, Single Power and Meier Audio.

 

[sacd lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth /img/forum/go_quote.gif There are very popular amps being sold now that are even simpler and have a 350+ price tag on them and everyone goes ape over them. Yet there is no way these other manufacturers have the same overhead as someone like Grado. Yet, somehow, everyone attacks the RA-1. Mind boggling, the drama folks continually need to drum up is really intriguing to me.

I have always been intrigued by this as well. Why is it the RA-1 is always held up as being overpriced when there are other small portable amps that retail for just as much as the RA-1, dont sound any better and maybe not as good with grados .... and which cost even less to build? Why doesnt anyone complain about the value of the others .... not that we want you to?

Maybe everyone is so focused on the RA-1 they havent looked at the value provided by the RA-1's competitors.

 

[IEATTEFLON]

If a single man operation is more profitable, then a business with employees should re-think their strategy. What is the point of a business if after salaries, taxes, etc your earnings per unit is less than if you did it one man?

A typical business enjoys tax exemption on expenses and raw materials, have more purchase power with B2B than a solo gig. The typical workload of the single worker is also decreased greatly compared to a solo gig.

If you need to jack up prices to stay in business because you dont sell much compared to the bigger companies, I would consider that borderline failure.

 

[PinkFloyd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth /img/forum/go_quote.gif we don't want Grado going out of business

I just had to come out of enforced retirement to agree with you on that one...... you certainly don't want them going out of business and you don't want to hear the truth.... maybe you already know the truth but the backhanders are something you've come to expect.

Back into retirement fast

 

[Zanth]

Pretty much! If we went through the entire line-up of sub $500 amps, I'm pretty sure the overall cost of parts for the vast majority of them would be in the same ballpark. So then, why the big hissy fits? Certainly the RA-1 is known to sound good with Grados, particularly the Reference series. Grado makes no claims that it is the best amp in the world. They merely sell this as a very good amp for Grados. Why did Grado go and build the RA-1? Because, just like Joseph Grado, at the time, there was no amp that was suitable for Grados in a reasonable price range. Hence the RA-1.

Because it was one of the first headphone amps, it has had the longest time to be criticized, torn apart etc. Those that never enjoyed it may see it as a prime target to vent, or those that feel they could build it better and cheaper, may feel slighted by the price they paid (perhaps not realizing that they have no warranty at all, and unless they themselves are the ones that built it, have to rely on others to fix their clone). Perhaps in time, people will come to realize that most amps are built to a price point and that bills need to be paid. I find it funny that the Ear HP4 is highly regarded, often claimed to be one of the best tube amps ever built and yet the parts inside are nothing to write home about (save for the volume control and transformers). That is not saying it is not well built, it sure is...but 4-5k? Perhaps the markup for it is greater than that of the RA-1 and yet the HP4 in my opinion is only percentage points above the RA-1 for Grados (but when one is in the hobby, those final percentages mean all the difference in the world!). Still...if the markup is greater, why don't more people complain about it? I would gather because the rise would not be the same. There are hardly any HP4 owners and there certainly isn't an EAR faction, like the "company" teams we have on this board. So because of the lack of voice for the company, it simply wouldn't be as much fun to cry about it.

 

[Zanth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PinkFloyd /img/forum/go_quote.gif I just had to come out of enforced retirement to agree with you on that one...... you certainly don't want them going out of business and you don't want to hear the truth.... maybe you already know the truth but the backhanders are something you've come to expect. Back into retirement fast

I'll admit I'm fuzzy today. So I will just type: Huh?

 

[PinkFloyd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'll admit I'm fuzzy today. So I will just type: Huh?

Type, moonwalk in the nude, take backhanders from Grado.... I don't give a toss sunshine

but please don't try to convince me the RA-1 is value for money.

 

[Zanth]

I'm still way confused. I am definitely tired today. I'm not sure if that was a joke, or a stab.

Edit: Well now that you edited your post, I realize where you are coming from. I wasn't so tired afterall.

 

[rickcr42]

Quote:

If a single man operation is more profitable, then a business with employees should re-think their strategy. What is the point of a business if after salaries, taxes, etc your earnings per unit is less than if you did it one man?

so you are saying if someone can make more loot working from the ktichen table with ZERO overhead a legitimate company is structured wrong if it can't compete ?

Maybe would be true if the LEGITIMATE did not already do all the grunt work of breaking the markets open,advetrtising then giving enough clues so the clueless can "semi" copy the products,maybe would be true if the legit stopped answrring the phones or honoring an implied warranty of quality and possibly even if they did not have to submit to standards testing so your house doesn't burn down when the damn things fries for no reason or maybe just fries your headphones but having zero responisibility is always easier than taking the high road and if all these taxes are so ewasy to write off then explain to me why NONE of the DIY for PROFIT crowd pays their fair share ?

Seems this joint has a very long and colorful history of holding cheaters up on a pedestal as if they are doing YOU a favor even though it is THEY making the loot without putting anything back into the very system that enables them to profit (paying taxes,employing actual humans,etc.).The only saving grace from my vantage point (high up on pious mountain

) is when I get to read all the "wahhhh ! I've been robbed ! What ever should I do ? Please Help !" threads and that remind me of the greedy folks who try to buy a hot TV set out of the back of someones van then b*tch about being ripped off when it turns out to be a box of bricks never even realising that it is perfect justice !

Having no feelings one way or the other when the initial crime took place,the TV being ripped,means you don't have the RIGHT to complain later when it is your turn in line to be taken and that goes to buying headphone amps as well.Buy from the reputable and those with a stake in the future of their company and you will be satisfied even if that satisfaction comes at "take it back,I don't want it" but deal with a fly by night overnight sensation ?

Crap shoot.You may get an amp,even maybe a good enough amp,you may get a box of rocks labelled "headphone amp inside" or you may get zip and if either of the second two your own damn fault for being too damn cheap to anti up and pay a legitimate price for a legitimate product

just an opinion,mine

 

[hciman77]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickcr42 /img/forum/go_quote.gif then explain to me why NONE of the DIY for PROFIT crowd pays their fair share ?

I suspect that may be something of a broad generalization. There may be several small builders who have designed amps from scratch and have not taken the cloning or cMoy copy approach. I own at least one amp that fits that category. Some also do provide very strong product support, I own at least one amp in that category.

 

[IEATTEFLON]

Quote:

Maybe would be true if the LEGITIMATE did not already do all the grunt work of breaking the markets open,advetrtising then giving enough clues so the clueless can "semi" copy the products,maybe would be true if the legit stopped answrring the phones or honoring an implied warranty of quality and possibly even if they did not have to submit to standards testing so your house doesn't burn down when the damn things fries for no reason or maybe just fries your headphones but having zero responisibility is always easier than taking the high road and if all these taxes are so ewasy to write off then explain to me why NONE of the DIY for PROFIT crowd pays their fair share ?

I was around long enough to know that the headphone amp market was laughable before the advent of cmoy and alike. Sure they existed but it was a rare and esoteric hobby then. It is people like Chu Moy, PPL and Tangent that broke the barrier from a lukewarm interest into the full-blown one it is today. In simple and easy to use DIY form that even the budget conscious person can relate to.

Even if you look back circa 1999-2000 this headamp market was almost non-existant outside of expensive tube offerings or DIY one-of types offered from people. I have yet to see full regulation and safety labels on any headphone amplifier whether from a DIY or other.

On the contrary, I think it is most of the so called 'legit' operations that exploited the DIY crowd and marketed accordingly. I sometimes see a concept in DIY form either in textbooks or website posts and shortly see a rough copy of it for sale shortly after. This concept can be either case extrusion layout, popular opamps or capacitors etc. or all.

I would appreciate it if you gave me a list of headphone amp manufacturers that you think is legit and operates fully within the law in being UL certified with an actual business license/tax etc etc.

I would also appreciate a pointer to any patents that these legitimate amp makers hold since you think that DIY'ers for sale rip off their designs for profit. Ripping off original ideas with copyrights and patents is a serious crime.

The only legit company with a team of engineers I can think of is Headroom. Grado obviously didn't patent their amplifier since it is a very common NJM4556 headphone amplification circuit commonly found in 80-90's Sony equipment and similar.

 

[rickcr42]

free advertising,free "build" threads so there is no need to actually provide any manuals,zero state/local/federal taxes,zero UL compliance,zero compliance with any body that governs trade or basic safety,zero RoHs compliance even though sold in Europe,zero light/rent/heating bill since these are already paid for the "shop" being the home residence=pure profit because there is no one else in the loop yet the legitimate manufacturer who has no choice but to play by the laws governing international trade plus having employees who make a salary thus being a part of the local economy,pays for advertisements to get the word out (he has no FREE forums to shill in there being very strict MOT rules in every single audio forum so must pay as he goes) is a crook because he/she wants to actually turn a profit after playing by the rulkes that have always governed fair trade ?

Not hardly ! Some will ALWAYS buy the TV out of the van while others have no problem being part of the economic food chain knowing that if not for legitimate business and profit they would not have a job thus no means to buy ANYTHING let alone a luxury item such as a headphone amp-can't eat it after all and it won't shelter you in a storm so in my "Rictionary" not exactly an essential product