Gold Cds
Aug 7, 2001 at 3:16 PM Post #16 of 28
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P.S. kindly indicate when your diatribes are opinions or preferences. Have nice day.


OK - that's just silly! ROFL!!!
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Aug 7, 2001 at 10:19 PM Post #17 of 28
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Gold CDs have a higher reflectivity and so
CD players can read the data on the disc
more accurately. In fact, no CD player can
read the data 100% correct, Gold CDs just
help to reduce error.


nope, all CDs have error correction, so as long as the number of errors remain below a certain threshold, there will be NO errors in the output.

And if bit errors are so important that you can hear an audiable difference, then we would all use DAE on our computers to *perfectly* read the discs.


Fixed quotation code.

--Dan
 
Aug 10, 2001 at 7:59 AM Post #18 of 28
Guys, the truth is that fidelity to the original master tape IS NOT what mastering, or re-mastering is all about! If it was the producer/engineer at the original session would simply burn a cd-r of their mixed-down master tape, and your cds would be duplicates of it.

There is another CRITICAL stage in the process called "MASTERING". The goal of mastering ISN'T just to accurately transfer the sound of the stereo master tape to the cd. It's to IMPROVE the sound of the stereo master before pressing cds! And mastering engineers emply every trick in the book to do this...compression, equalization, peak-limiting, editing (yes Mastering engineers sometimes DO re-edit the material sent to them. They also are the ones who frequently decide whether to take out, or leave in studio sounds such as count-downs to the first beat of a song, musicians comments after the song, etc), etc. The mastering engineer has AT LEAST as much impact on what your cds (or lps) sound like as the producer or engineer! His/hers are the ears which do the final tweaking, and give the recording it's final "polish". THIS PROCESS is why re-mastered cds by high-end companies like Mobile Fidelity and DCC often sound STARTLINGLY different, and BETTER than the originals! Yes DCC does use premium tube based reel-to-reel units to play back master tapes. But that sure as hell isn't all they do!
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Aug 10, 2001 at 12:31 PM Post #19 of 28
Quote:

The goal of mastering ISN'T just to accurately transfer the sound of the stereo master tape to the cd. It's to IMPROVE the sound of the stereo master before pressing cds!


Mike, I agree that it is their job to make the best sounding master, but what if it was done professionally and is fine as it is? And would the masterer not simply transfer it with the sound that the producer intended?

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And mastering engineers emply every trick in the book to do this...compression, equalization, peak-limiting


Odd, the interviews I've read with the great mastering engineers, they complain about the amount of compression that's on a lot of recordings they receive. One said it ruins the longevity of the music.

Quote:

THIS PROCESS is why re-mastered cds by high-end companies like Mobile Fidelity and DCC often sound STARTLINGLY different, and BETTER than the originals!


Yes, the old MoFi trick of the early 80's. Boost the highs and lows and fool everybody into thinking it's "better".
 
Aug 10, 2001 at 2:39 PM Post #20 of 28
When I talk about compression/limiting/equalization, I'm speaking mostly of the "mastering" process that takes place with rock/pop/country recordings, NOT classical and acoustic jazz that was recorded with simple mic techniques (and a low mic count) to begin with.

And yes mastering engineers DO complain when producers/engineers use too much compression, because compression applied during trackind and mixing can't be removed. But it's not that they (the mastering engineers) are "purists" who prefer not to compress/limit/equalize. They simply think this type of processing should be done ONLY ONCE, and at the "end of the line"...the mastering stage. Trust me, much of what makes the best sounding rock/pop/country recordings sound so "punchy" and "in your face" is the careful application of processing in the mastering stage! And audiophile labels do it just as much as the "major" record labels!

Yes Mobile Fidelity DID re-equalize/compress/limit their recordings. But then so does EVERYBODY else. And extending bass response (Mo-Fi recordings had not just more bass, but more EXTENDED bass) was a big part of what Mobile Fidelity did, and others do. Remember the masters for most of the old recordings that Mobile Fidelity tackled were made for lps. LPs have some severe limitations when it comes to the amount of bass information they can store. The higher the level of low frequency content, the shorter the playing time with a phonograph record (because records with lots of bass require more extreme excursions of the cutting stylus, which takes up LOTS of extra space), and the less likely it is that inexpensive phono cartridges (the vast majority in use during vinyl's heyday) can play a given record without distortion or mistracking. The result of this is that phonograph records FREQUENTLY were cut with less bass than the producers, engineers, and artists intended. Mobile Fidelitys records obviously weren't likely to be played in cheap equipment, so they really "socked it to" the bass range, God bless 'em! The thing is, their releases were more likely to have represented the intentions of the producers/engineers/artists than were the actual product released by the major labels (for reasons explained above).

As for audiophile recordings simply having more bass and treble, well...changes to frequency response and dynamics are among the easiest and most obvious to hear (major label releases already have low distortion and low noise levels), so these are the things a mastering engineer is most likely to change. Don't be "shocked", however. If a recording has more, fuller bass, crisper highs, and a more punchy "dynamic" sound than the original, and most people prefer this sound, then it IS "better". By it's nature "better" is a subjective term. If the majority of people prefer one sound to another, then by definition it IS better! And the judicious use of equalization, compression, and limiting can and DOES often give new insight into details in a favorite recording!

Note: the decision of DCC to re-master using tube electronics is as much a subjective "enhancement" of the original material as is the decision to apply other forms of processing. Tube electronics IN GENERAL produce sound with more harmonic distortion than solid state, and it is (I believe) this extra "harmonic information" (distortion, actually...but "musical sounding" distortion) that gives tube electronics their particular sound! This is neither right, nor wrong in itself. It it yields better sounding results, then it IS "right". If the sound is worse because of it, then obviously it was "wrong". Since I happen to adore the sound of many DCC re-issues, I believe this decision is "right".

I find it amusing that many high end audiophiles have such purist views about the use of dynamics and frequency processing, when the very recordings they use for forming their opinions were HUGELY processed before release! Not that the audiophiles are wrong to want to accurately play what's "in the grooves" or "the pits" in the case of cd. It's just that their favorite recordings largely sound the way they do because of the use of devices which they would certainly scorn in a "serious" playback system
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Aug 10, 2001 at 3:14 PM Post #21 of 28
Excellent explanation Mike! I agree with everything you stated especially the roles of compression and equalization in making our recorded music listenable with the hardware and software we have for playback. Why would you bother to remaster something if you were not going to use different processing techniques to try and convey essence of the music from the master tape(s) on our playback medium. That is why I stated early on that not all remasters necessarily sound better to me. Some do and some don't and it seems to be dependent more on individual remastering engineers and their preferences rather than by labels.

I also agree that audiophile purists may be a little overboard in the no-processing thing. Anyone who has tried to install a highend system in an automobile knows the importance of time-alignment and frequency equalization in the very nasty auto environment. Most home environments using speakers can also use major help, since very few of us can build dedicated listening rooms from scratch (and stay married!). Even headphones can use help now and then from post processing, just look at some of the frequency graphs.

Lastly, I too am a fan of the DCC reissues. I think it is a combination of their equipment as well as the choices of their engineers. Steve Hoffman is one of my favorite mastering engineers.
 
Aug 10, 2001 at 3:46 PM Post #22 of 28
Gold CDs are purely cosmetic. They have no inherent sound quality benefits.

Of course, often audiophile labels produce these gold CDs. As a result, the gold colouring can be indicative, even synonymous, of a better quality recording, remaster or whatever. But this is not a benefit of the gold itself. It's the audiophile processes, whatever they may be, compression/limiting/equalization, that produce the audio benefits.

It's a way of distinguishing your product from other. A marketing tool at the end of the day. And it works.

Has anyone noticed that George Michael's - older album was very much a mas produced item, and every single copy was on gold CD's. in fact even the bonuc CD called Upper was gold.

This was because, after his wham days, you will all have noticed olf Georgie was going for a more sophisticated look, sound (more jazzy upmarket) and the gold colour of the CDs matched up with this. It's marketing, nothing more.
 
Aug 10, 2001 at 5:12 PM Post #23 of 28
Mike Walker...

Quote:

The thing is, their releases (MoFi) were more likely to have represented the intentions of the producers/engineers/artists than were the actual product released by the major labels (for reasons explained above)


In some cases yes, most no. The MoFi LPs had pretty much identical sonic characteristics (boosted highs and lows). I don't think each producers of each genre of music coincidentially had this in mind.
In fact, for example, the original Canadian, US and British LPs of Dark Side Of The Moon, as well as the 1992 re-mastered CD have pretty much the same sonic/frequency balance. The MoFi LP has more bass than all of the above. If you read interviews with Stan Ricker, he said the suits at MoFi insisted on boosting the frequency extremes even though he knew it was not the right thing to do. Also, the MoFi of Kim Carnes "Mistaken Identity" sounds nothing like the producer intended, where original Mastering Lab/Doug Sax one did. And the Atlanta Rhythm Section's "Champagne Jam" sounds muddy compared to the MASTERDISK Polydor original.

MoFi did produce much better pressings in terms of flatness and quiet, but also mastered them at a lower overall volume level. You can not only hear this but you can see about a 1 1/2 inch of lead-out groove area compared to about 1/2 inch on the original, indicating an overall lower level.

I think they figured that not many people would purchase $30 LPs that sounded the same as the $5 original so they had to "sweeten it up". But who gave them the artistic licence to do this?
 
Aug 10, 2001 at 5:17 PM Post #24 of 28
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Of course, often audiophile labels produce these gold CDs. As a result, the gold colouring can be indicative, even synonymous, of a better quality recording, remaster or whatever. But this is not a benefit of the gold itself. It's the audiophile processes, whatever they may be, compression/limiting/equalization, that produce the audio benefits.


I'm inclined to agree with eeyssjr on gold as a way to visually differentiate special versions, remasters, etc. -- it adds to the perceived value, which is needed at the store shelf level (since you can't typically listen to the gold CD until you actually buy it, so something has to tip you off that what's on it might be more special).
 
Aug 10, 2001 at 5:35 PM Post #25 of 28
One thing to understand Beagle is that it is not possible to boost the bass level on an lp without taking up A LOT more room on the disc, unless the overall level is reduced. But with quieter pressings, reducing the overall level can be a good thing, as it allows the 1 1/2 inch leadout. Having a greater lead-out is a GOOD THING! The stylus doesn't track as close to the center of the disc, where groove velocity is at it's lowest, and inner-groove distortion at it's highest! This is worth sacrificing a few db of level for. Say you cut at a level 4-5db lower. If your high quality pressing is 10db or more quieter than the one that originally sold in stores for 5 dollars, you've produced a recording that is quieter, has better (or at least more...potentially with more extension) bass, and (because of the greater lead-out area) has lower distortion. For an lp mastering engineer, all of the above is to be commended (except perhaps for exaggeration of the bass, which after all is a subjective matter).

Pssst: The "suits" at Mo Fi may be right. I find that I really like the sound of their lp reissues from the 80s! My Mo-Fi lp of "Year of the Cat" by Al Stewart is DEFINITELY more listenable than the regular mass-market cd of the same. And I LIKE the Mo-Fi Dark Side of the Moon! The problem with mastering is that it's SUBJECTIVE! At the end of the day, someone will decide "I'm going to do this because it sounds better TO ME!". We're only human. Sometimes our judgements are just plain wrong! Which is why even high end systems might reconsider having an equalizer AVAILABLE (not in the circuit when listening to "good" recordings, but available) for playing recordings where the mastering engineer seems to have over-done it (in YOUR opinion!) So much tweaking time is spent attempting to correct perceived system problems which, in actuality are frequency-response related, and would be best "tweaked" with judicious use of an equalizer. Something to ponder
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Aug 10, 2001 at 6:05 PM Post #26 of 28
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Having a greater lead-out is a GOOD THING! The stylus doesn't track as close to the center of the disc, where groove velocity is at it's lowest, and inner-groove distortion at it's highest!


Agreed. Agreed 100%. A lower overall level and stay as far away from the label as possible. That helps partially eliminate two main flaws of the vinyl LP. If you skip from the first cut on a MoFi LP to the last, there is not that big increase in distortion compared to something cut louder, closer to the label area

Also agree that Year Of The Cat MoFi LP sounds good, as does George Benson's Breezin'. The frequency balance suits that recording. It did not suit Champagne Jam or Mistaken Identity. I was just trying to point out that while the MoFi "sound" may be appealing to many, it may not be what the artist/producer intended. Of course, it could also be better than the artist/producer though possible
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Aug 10, 2001 at 6:18 PM Post #27 of 28
To my ears these mo-fi CD remasters (I haven't heard all these on the LP remasters) sound better than other available discs.

Steel Dan - Aja, Gaucho
Elton John - Goddbye Yellow Brick Road
Pink Floyd - Dark Side of the Moon, The Wall
The Moody Blues - Days of Future Passed
Bob Marley - Exodus

Others may not feel this way. I also like most of the DCC remasters and some of the Sony's. However I do not particularly like the Sony remaster of Miles Davis' Kind of Blue (I haven't heard the SACD version). The bass and midbass sounds a little thin to me. However, I seem to be in the minority here. To each there own, I'm in favor of multiple discs to allow more choice since as Mike Walker so cogently noted, each masteruing is a series of subjective choices by the mastering engineer. IMHO.
 
Aug 17, 2001 at 4:46 AM Post #28 of 28
I have a few Mo-Fi LPs and they are head and shoulders over the originals.

The only CD of theirs I have is Jimny Buffet/Son of a Son of a Sailor. Okay, okay, it's not exactly an audiophile classic, but the original is well produced (imo) and besides, sailors listen to Jimmy Buffet. Anyway, the midrange and bass has been noticably boosted, and the upshot is I prefer the original most of the time.

I may be losing my dum-bass tendencies from my days with JBLs, DCM Time Windows, and M&Ks.
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