Feliks-Audio ELISE...New thread.
Oct 11, 2015 at 2:26 PM Post #211 of 13,856
The topic was motorcycles some time back. Special points if you can identify this bike and the year it was made (hint: same year I was born).
 
DSC_0214.JPG

On display in the Reynold's Auto Museum, AB, Canada
 
Oct 11, 2015 at 2:56 PM Post #212 of 13,856
A general question: are the two drivers and the power tubes associated with the l/r channels or do both channels pass both tubes of each pair? I am asking because I feel puzzled that JV and H1 use different driver tubes. At the moment I have the metal ECC31 - 6SN7 adapters and when I touch the surface of the left adapter I hear a buzz in the left can and the other way round with the right adapter. Being a novice I would conclude that the driver tubes feed different channels, hence I would not mix tubes.
 
What do you think?
 
Oct 11, 2015 at 3:38 PM Post #213 of 13,856
H1 you're right this thread has everything. Isn't that interesting. Now someone will kill me for introducing the complete package.
 
I'm impressed with those 2 photos. I should be out taking pictures now that it's Spring.
 
That looks like a WW2 bike 
biggrin.gif

 
My philosophy on tubes is this. I want to try as many as I possibly can. Sure I could have bought a TOTL headphone with what I spend but I am happier this way. The headphone upgrade will come but there's no hurry I'm loving the HD650 too much right now. Also I don't believe in getting rid of my cheaper tubes. Tube rolling is a self discovery for myself. You can read all the reviews or others opinions but one should sample it for oneself if possible. Everyone's taste is different. Will a 10x more expensive tube sound 10x better than a cheaper tube? I think the answer there is the same with other gear in the audio chain for example HP, DAC, AMP. There will always be a diminishing return as you go up the chain. It is really up to the individuals to decide for themselves.
 
Respectfully
 
UT 
bigsmile_face.gif

 
Nep good question. I think it's one for the designers of the amp to tell us.
 
P/S Another reason for me investing in tubes particularly 6AS7 and 6SN7 is because I don't think I'll stop at Elise.
 
Oct 11, 2015 at 3:38 PM Post #214 of 13,856
  Hi JV,
 
Part of the allure of tubes for me is to dredge up the bargains. It would be easy to just order a pair of ECC32 tubes with another pair of GEC A1834, but I just can't get myself to spend the big bucks (around $1000.00 if you just click on the buy it now button.) So far I did not pay more than $18 for a tube, including shipping. This way of acquisition is very challenging and requires patience.
 
I do have a bunch of top notch tubes, but some only as singles so far, in order to meet my self imposed price limits. It also seems to me that people are overlooking very inexpensive tubes as being, well, too inexpensive.
 
It must be a fact that a $200 tube is so much better than a $10 tube, right?
 
So the question is: If I have a pair of $20 6N7G drivers and a pair of GE 6AS7GA power tubes for $15, do I get 70%, 80% or 90% of the sound of the best and most expensive that's out there?
 
I don't have the answer since I have not been able to compare. One thing is for sure, even with a less optimal set up, the tremendous musical enjoyment is there with the Elise.
 
I am not giving up - I'll either find a bargain or cave in just to have the best LOL. In the meanwhile I am enjoying myself...
 
Listening to my oldies 6N7G tubes paired with the Chatham 6AS7G at the moment. The Chathams add a little more punch to the bass and a more analytical and less warm sound than the GE 6AS7GA tubes. Sounds great, but something bothers me, don't know what. maybe a certain hardness to the sound.
 
Do you like strawberry shortcake or pizza with a spicy topping? It really isn't a good analogy - the only food somebody could eat every day of his life without getting tired of it is.... bread.
 
How did I get into this philosophical discussion?
 
Thanks for the link to the Delco 6N7G tube - unfortunately he only has a single tube.

 
Hi again m...as always, you give us some really brain-crunching, mind-numbing questions to address in this tube world of ours, lol! 
rolleyes.gif
...there are so many variables in music reproduction and enjoyment, full stop!!
 
But first, I believe we are now getting $1000 sound from tubes a fraction of the cost!
 
Secondly, with so many people having already scoured different tube families and reported on them, I wonder which "inexpensive" tubes are going to match those that have proved their qualities over time and application in different makes of amp - unless having the extremely good luck I had with the FDD20, for example. I suspect the search could indeed be a VERY long one indeed...and life is short, methinks!
wink_face.gif
(especially as we cannot take for granted that life shall indeed be kind to us time-wise...).
 
Thirdly, I'm afraid I think it's impossible to put any kind of percentage figure on sound perception, as everyone's starting point is going to be totally personal and unique - ie one person may rate their current set-up sound at "50%" but another "90%", for example. Certainly, we so often end up paying a great deal for only small gains...then we have to make difficult choices (unless a millionaire!). In your own example, I can only comment on whether I personally feel the improvement over generally regarded as 'good' tubes to be worthwhile...and the overwhelming answer has to be YES, YES!
 
And so, mon ami, all I can say is I truly hope you do indeed discover an unknown wonder...preferably for peanuts, lol!!
wink.gif
...but please don't deny yourself for too long the joy you deserve from our latest findings...
tongue.gif

 
As you say, though, great sound comes out of the Elise with any of the appropriate tubes...and then we move on to say hello to gibosi's "rabbit hole" - and are lost!!
 
CHEERS,m ....from somewhere near the bottom of that hole...
blink.gif

 
Oct 11, 2015 at 3:40 PM Post #215 of 13,856
  A general question: are the two drivers and the power tubes associated with the l/r channels or do both channels pass both tubes of each pair? I am asking because I feel puzzled that JV and H1 use different driver tubes. At the moment I have the metal ECC31 - 6SN7 adapters and when I touch the surface of the left adapter I hear a buzz in the left can and the other way round with the right adapter. Being a novice I would conclude that the driver tubes feed different channels, hence I would not mix tubes.
 
What do you think?

One of my old power tubes hummed, and when I switched their position, the hum went from the right channel to the left, so I believe you are right, atleast for power tubes. 
 
Oct 11, 2015 at 5:08 PM Post #216 of 13,856
  The topic was motorcycles some time back. Special points if you can identify this bike and the year it was made (hint: same year I was born).
 
DSC_0214.JPG

On display in the Reynold's Auto Museum, AB, Canada

1947 Knucklehead 
 
Oct 11, 2015 at 5:27 PM Post #217 of 13,856
  A general question: are the two drivers and the power tubes associated with the l/r channels or do both channels pass both tubes of each pair? I am asking because I feel puzzled that JV and H1 use different driver tubes. At the moment I have the metal ECC31 - 6SN7 adapters and when I touch the surface of the left adapter I hear a buzz in the left can and the other way round with the right adapter. Being a novice I would conclude that the driver tubes feed different channels, hence I would not mix tubes.
 
What do you think?

 
Hello Nephilim...
 
I agree that the L/R channels of the Elise are independent,  I had said the FDD20 and ECC31 are both quite microphonic.  With no input, if I rap of the side of the tubes with a popsicle stick, I hear the noise in the side that the tube is on.
 
I know mixing of the drivers seems like it would not be a good idea, but in the case of the FDD20/ECC31, they sound incredibly alike.
An instrument that is panned Left to Right does not change timbre or volume across the two tubes.  The more the FDD20 burns in, the more it sounds just like the ECC31.
 
I have tried mixing other combinations with less success,  The two tubes must have the same gain (amplification) factors, else one side is louder than the other and that does not work well.  In the case of these two tubes, the gain is the same or so close that you do not perceive any volume difference, Left To Right.
 
I do have another FDD20 and adapter on order, so in a few weeks I can report if two FDD20's sound better than one each FDD20/ECC31.
 
You said you have FDD20's coming and you have the power supply.  If you have (2) FDD20's coming you might know before me :)
 
If you also have an ECC31, I recommend that you try this combination as well.  You will see (hear) they pair very well, together.
 
Cheers!!
 
 
--JV--
 
.
 
Oct 11, 2015 at 7:37 PM Post #218 of 13,856
Hi guys,

I need to buy ECC31 but not sure if they'll work wonders with my stock power tubes, can anyone be kind enough to comment on this? What reasonably priced tubes can power ECC31 to their appetite?

Also, are these the ECC31 everyone is talking about? Mullard ECC31? Link http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=181899540902&alt=web

Honestly speaking, my DAC out performs Elise, I can feel it. I just put new cables to make sure everything is at par in this Elise Geek combo. I also shifted to media playback via Android device using OTG cable. The DAC amplifier blows my mind, when I switch to Elise I feel it is blocking the SQ. I'm still trying to figure out what it is. This experience got me into thinking for tube rolling. Otherwise I might just go with the DAC.

Thank you!
LR
 
Oct 11, 2015 at 8:29 PM Post #219 of 13,856
Hi guys,

I need to buy ECC31 but not sure if they'll work wonders with my stock power tubes, can anyone be kind enough to comment on this? What reasonably priced tubes can power ECC31 to their appetite?

Also, are these the ECC31 everyone is talking about? Mullard ECC31? Link http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=181899540902&alt=web

Honestly speaking, my DAC out performs Elise, I can feel it. I just put new cables to make sure everything is at par in this Elise Geek combo. I also shifted to media playback via Android device using OTG cable. The DAC amplifier blows my mind, when I switch to Elise I feel it is blocking the SQ. I'm still trying to figure out what it is. This experience got me into thinking for tube rolling. Otherwise I might just go with the DAC.

Thank you!
LR

These seem to test better for about same price test is  at bottom of page  http://www.ebay.com/itm/2Pcs-NOS-MULLARD-NR73-CV1285-ECC31-6N7G-/301741856291?hash=item4641375623                                                                                                                                                                                                                     By the way i paid $100.00 U.S. and $130.00 U.S.for my 2 pairs  take your time and maybe youll get lucky.                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
 
Oct 11, 2015 at 10:47 PM Post #220 of 13,856
Here’s my back-to-back comparison of the Elise and the Crack + Speedball. You’ll find that my initial impressions still hold true; The Elise has details and the Crack has dat bass.
 
Materials:
FLAC --> MusicBee + WASAPI --> Schiit Bifrost Uber via gen2 USB --> {AMP} --> Beyerdynamic DT880, 600 Ohm
 
I used the same winged "C" power tubes in both amps. For drivers, I used the original stock tubes in the Elise (not the TS reissues), then a gold-pin JJ ECC802 S in the Crack. I used standard power and interconnect cables; absolutely nothing special.
 
Methods:
Listened to 8 songs I'm very familiar with, taking brief notes while listening. I played all 8 from the Elise first, then did the same with the Crack.
The xx - Angels
The xx - Try
Vampire Weekend - Obvious Bicycle
Pink Floyd - The Post War Dream
Nine Inch Nails - March of the Pigs
Nine Inch Nails - Closer
Rage Against The Machine - I'm Housin'
Portishead - Glory Box
 
Results:
This is what I wrote for each amp
Elise: Space, Separation, Detail, Clean
Crack: Narrow/Forward, Bass + Bass control, Messy
 
Discussion:
I said before that the Crack is analogous to looking at a picture, while the Elise is like a diorama of that picture. The first thing I noticed about the Crack tonight was how narrow it sounded compared to Elise. It truly sounds like a dimension has been removed from the soundstage, making things seem overly focused. The things in focus dominate the stage, and something has to move out of the way for a new sound to come in. This became a problem for Nine Inch Nails and Rage Against The Machine, where the music is quite busy. The Elise can separate each synth loop in March of the Pigs, but it sounds like a total mess with the Crack.
 I also said before that the Crack had distinctly bigger lows and mids. That, too, was on the front of my mind tonight, and that might be where the Crack beats the Elise. The Crack has such deep, wide bass it totally defies the aforementioned narrowness of the soundstage. It sounds like the bass is the canvas upon which the rest of the music is painted, and it sounds awesome with those tracks from The xx. Sometimes, however, the crack sounded like it was overly focused on low-mids. I think this preference coupled with the narrowness of the sound made it sound off-balance at times. In other words, the Elise would present sounds and instruments relatively evenly, while the Crack gave you 1) low-mids and 2) whatever else was “in focus” at the time. It never sounded out of control, but occasionally felt out of place.
Ultimately I think I prefer the Elise, strictly in terms of sound. Although the bass generally sounds better with the Crack, the detail of the Elise is in another league.
 
Further Research:
I’d like to do this again with the Sennheiser HD650s and with better tubes. I have some C3gs that need to be burned in, and I’d love to find some 5998 power tubes. Now that I have two amps to benefit from the purchase, I might be able to justify investing big bucks in them.
 
Other Considerations:
Obviously the Crack is a DIY kit. As other reviewers have said, the kit and instructions are great and it’s quite easy to build. Personally, I had no trouble building it, but I had some bad parts that took several months to iron out. I sent it to bottlehead HQ 3 times before it was in perfect order. Repairs and shipping aren’t cheap, so I’m probably into the Crack for as much as, or more than, the Elise. I’ll give bottlehead credit for customer service, but I wish I bought something like the Elise from the beginning. It’s a nice amp, but in my experience, not reliable enough to be your _only_ amp. YMMV – a lot of other people love the Crack.
 
Hope this was informative, 
Karl
 
Oct 11, 2015 at 11:35 PM Post #221 of 13,856
Good honest review in your own words. I like it. Again thanks for listing the tracks you're using and the associated gear. Give others a better perspective of the listening session.
 
Oct 12, 2015 at 1:42 AM Post #223 of 13,856
Ladies and gents, I know this is an Elise thread but what does everyone think of the Feliks Audio Ariso for speakers? Can't find any reviews on them but judging by the praise of the Elise, I am sure this is a descent amp too.  Just wondering what sort of speakers would I be able to power with the Ariso?
 
Thanks
 
Oct 12, 2015 at 4:34 AM Post #224 of 13,856

It depends on your budget/location and how loud you want to go !
You have to take into account that the Arioso is a 4W per chanel amp so you need to have high efficiency speaker. Really high efficiency is above 100db for 1W at 1m
If you live un U.S.A. you can get a look to Klipsch Horn/La Scala/Cornwall, you can probably find in second market and/or listen with similar tube amp.
For less, you can also give a look to http://www.decware.com/newsite/ZOB.html.
 
Oct 12, 2015 at 5:57 AM Post #225 of 13,856
   
Hello Nephilim...
 
I agree that the L/R channels of the Elise are independent,  I had said the FDD20 and ECC31 are both quite microphonic.  With no input, if I rap of the side of the tubes with a popsicle stick, I hear the noise in the side that the tube is on.
 
I know mixing of the drivers seems like it would not be a good idea, but in the case of the FDD20/ECC31, they sound incredibly alike.
An instrument that is panned Left to Right does not change timbre or volume across the two tubes.  The more the FDD20 burns in, the more it sounds just like the ECC31.
 
I have tried mixing other combinations with less success,  The two tubes must have the same gain (amplification) factors, else one side is louder than the other and that does not work well.  In the case of these two tubes, the gain is the same or so close that you do not perceive any volume difference, Left To Right.
 
I do have another FDD20 and adapter on order, so in a few weeks I can report if two FDD20's sound better than one each FDD20/ECC31.
 
You said you have FDD20's coming and you have the power supply.  If you have (2) FDD20's coming you might know before me :)
 
If you also have an ECC31, I recommend that you try this combination as well.  You will see (hear) they pair very well, together.
 
Cheers!!
 
 
--JV--
 
.

 
Hi JV.
 
Although not a very long trial, I must admit I found 2x FDD20s didn't have quite the same amazing sub-bass as either 2x 31s or the 31/FDD20 combo...but perhaps much longer burn-in might bring things a bit closer...look forward to your and neph's findings...
tongue.gif

 
Hi guys,

I need to buy ECC31 but not sure if they'll work wonders with my stock power tubes, can anyone be kind enough to comment on this? What reasonably priced tubes can power ECC31 to their appetite?

Also, are these the ECC31 everyone is talking about? Mullard ECC31? Link http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=181899540902&alt=web

Honestly speaking, my DAC out performs Elise, I can feel it. I just put new cables to make sure everything is at par in this Elise Geek combo. I also shifted to media playback via Android device using OTG cable. The DAC amplifier blows my mind, when I switch to Elise I feel it is blocking the SQ. I'm still trying to figure out what it is. This experience got me into thinking for tube rolling. Otherwise I might just go with the DAC.

Thank you!
LR

 
Hi LR. The best supply of NOS 31s at the moment seems to be UK ebayer  :  http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ECC31-MULLARD-VALVE-TUBE-BRITISH-MADE-/191687114164?hash=item2ca1713db4
 
Good used ones do occasionally turn up, but these tubes are so good it is well worth splashing out on new ones, IMHO - you wouldn't regret it. Certainly don't pay more for used tubes would be my advice, lol!
wink_face.gif

  Here’s my back-to-back comparison of the Elise and the Crack + Speedball. You’ll find that my initial impressions still hold true; The Elise has details and the Crack has dat bass.
 
Materials:
FLAC --> MusicBee + WASAPI --> Schiit Bifrost Uber via gen2 USB --> {AMP} --> Beyerdynamic DT880, 600 Ohm
 
I used the same winged "C" power tubes in both amps. For drivers, I used the original stock tubes in the Elise (not the TS reissues), then a gold-pin JJ ECC802 S in the Crack. I used standard power and interconnect cables; absolutely nothing special.
 
Methods:
Listened to 8 songs I'm very familiar with, taking brief notes while listening. I played all 8 from the Elise first, then did the same with the Crack.
The xx - Angels
The xx - Try
Vampire Weekend - Obvious Bicycle
Pink Floyd - The Post War Dream
Nine Inch Nails - March of the Pigs
Nine Inch Nails - Closer
Rage Against The Machine - I'm Housin'
Portishead - Glory Box
 
Results:
This is what I wrote for each amp
Elise: Space, Separation, Detail, Clean
Crack: Narrow/Forward, Bass + Bass control, Messy
 
Discussion:
I said before that the Crack is analogous to looking at a picture, while the Elise is like a diorama of that picture. The first thing I noticed about the Crack tonight was how narrow it sounded compared to Elise. It truly sounds like a dimension has been removed from the soundstage, making things seem overly focused. The things in focus dominate the stage, and something has to move out of the way for a new sound to come in. This became a problem for Nine Inch Nails and Rage Against The Machine, where the music is quite busy. The Elise can separate each synth loop in March of the Pigs, but it sounds like a total mess with the Crack.
 I also said before that the Crack had distinctly bigger lows and mids. That, too, was on the front of my mind tonight, and that might be where the Crack beats the Elise. The Crack has such deep, wide bass it totally defies the aforementioned narrowness of the soundstage. It sounds like the bass is the canvas upon which the rest of the music is painted, and it sounds awesome with those tracks from The xx. Sometimes, however, the crack sounded like it was overly focused on low-mids. I think this preference coupled with the narrowness of the sound made it sound off-balance at times. In other words, the Elise would present sounds and instruments relatively evenly, while the Crack gave you 1) low-mids and 2) whatever else was “in focus” at the time. It never sounded out of control, but occasionally felt out of place.
Ultimately I think I prefer the Elise, strictly in terms of sound. Although the bass generally sounds better with the Crack, the detail of the Elise is in another league.
 
Further Research:
I’d like to do this again with the Sennheiser HD650s and with better tubes. I have some C3gs that need to be burned in, and I’d love to find some 5998 power tubes. Now that I have two amps to benefit from the purchase, I might be able to justify investing big bucks in them.
 
Other Considerations:
Obviously the Crack is a DIY kit. As other reviewers have said, the kit and instructions are great and it’s quite easy to build. Personally, I had no trouble building it, but I had some bad parts that took several months to iron out. I sent it to bottlehead HQ 3 times before it was in perfect order. Repairs and shipping aren’t cheap, so I’m probably into the Crack for as much as, or more than, the Elise. I’ll give bottlehead credit for customer service, but I wish I bought something like the Elise from the beginning. It’s a nice amp, but in my experience, not reliable enough to be your _only_ amp. YMMV – a lot of other people love the Crack.
 
Hope this was informative, 
Karl

 
More than informative, K...very good indeed! Thanks....
 
And you have also highlighted the downside of DIY kits...those are the very points that dissuaded me from going for either a Crack or a lovely Elekit...
redface.gif

 
As for that bass....easily remedied - 2x ECC31s, lol!!!
 
As more results come in from people, I'm sure a better idea of reasonably priced power tubes to do them justice will emerge...
 

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