[mbhaub]

Furtwangler and several others I can make excuses for...they were in very tough positions. One of my favorite composers, and a student of Bruckner, Franz Schmidt, was also in a very tight place. But Herr Bohm went far beyond doing what he needed to to survive. Mengelberg was no better, yet his reputation also survives. It does bring up an interesting topic, to be sure. I have made peace with most conductors of that era, as well as some conductors/composers who served Stalin all too willingly. Bohm is going to take a lot longer.

 

[Bunnyears]

Frankly, Böhm never bothered me as much as Elisabeth Schwartzkopf who actually joined the party in highschool, and actually spied and reported on her schoolmates for the party. After graduation, she worked closely with Goebbels at the propaganda ministry. She was, in fact, being groomed there for stardom on both the stage and films.

Despite his demonstrated nazi sympathies (he is reported to have given the nazi salute from the podium), he never did join the party, so he was more easily "de-nazified" than others. I still can't understand how Schwartzkopf managed to salvage any sort of career after the war. For me she is the soprano equivalent of Leni Riefenstahl.

 

[kevinsinnott]

I mentioned in an earlier post that I was largely unfamiliar with Bohm's personal life. I did a little researching and I find some interesting material that, while it does not answer the question of how to enjoy and artist's work if you don't agree with his politics, does question just what Bohm's politics were.

This article ( http://music.barnesandnoble.com/sear...?z=y&CTR=15704 ) suggests that Bohm, far from being a Nazi supporter, when asked to what party he belonged, shot back "Music". It goes on to say that Bohm lobbied to perform Jewish composers' works and harbored a Jewish industrialist over an extended period during the war.

It certainly calls into question any speculation about Bohm's alleged Nazi sympathies.

Meanwhile, I've always liked a $2 Bruckner 6th conducted by Cesare Cantieri/Suddeutsche Philharmonic on Point Classics. It's a pretty lousy recording, but the performance is my favorite thus far.

Also, I have a two-CD set featuring Philharmonic Slavonica of Bruckner's 4th and 2nd, conducted by Henry Adolph and Alberto Lizzio. Since there are theories that these conductor names are often inacurate, I can only speculate who really conducts them (Anton Nanut perhaps?). But, they're interesting and valid interpetations.

 

[Bunnyears]

Karl Böhm is always going to be a questionable figure when the 13 years of the Nazi regime are considered. No one can really say whether he would have been as successful had Hitler not intervened to remove the "non-Aryan" competition nor can we say that his work would not have been as successful. He was a great conductor and a great musician. Whether or not we should enjoy his work or not enjoy his work purely because his politics were those of ambition and convenience to say the least is something that every individual will have to decide for himself. It's certainly a lot easier not to think of these matters; then enjoying the work of Böhm, Karajan, Webern or Orff becomes a lot less problematic.

I'm lucky because nowadays there are so many great recordings are available that don't carry the historic baggage that the Böhm recordings carry. It's a lot harder to deal with the composers of that period who have enjoyed success. Their art will go on and on, perpetuated by sucessions of musicians who really don't want to consider the awful questions of the past.

 

[DarkAngel]

Would love to hear a complete Bruckner set by Bohm if such a thing could be assembled from various record companies vaults.......almost every Bruckner performance I have heard by Bohm is very good with a couple achieving greatness, just not much available on used market currently.

I ordered a used copy of Celibidache/DG 7,8,9 made before his dramatic slowing of tempos found on EMI set......samples sound very good.

Also got the newest remastered 1958 Karajan/EMI 8th part of new Karajan Collection series, comes with 4 overtures as filler......at 87 minutes sounds different than later BPO/DG and VPO/DG versions so worth getting for Bruckner collectors.

 

[eyeresist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lwd I agree with JayG. If we excelude Bohm on this basis then we should also omit Wagner and Strauss ie most of the German Operatic repertoire. I don't really know the details of the politics of Bohm or Knappertsbusch (not a big fan of either), but I think evidence suggests Karajan joined the Nazi party as a neccessary career move, although that is still totally deplorable. You could also argue that Furtwangler was a collaborator. Very dark part of our history, let's just hope it's never repeated.

The Wikipedia entry for Bohm mentions various damning things cited from Lebrecht's conductor book. Don't know what the original cites were - maybe anecdotal? I don't think it makes sense to criticise artists for continuing to work in their profession in their own country (how easy would any of us find it to go into exile from our home and culture?), and I notice that Soviet artists don't receive much rebuke in this area. On the other hand, it's always good to shame racists who claim protection under the cloak of culture.

(Wagner is always mentioned as the archetype for terrible personality & great art, but I think Wagner is, as in most things, the exception to the rule. From what I've read, most of the other Greats were sensitive and generous people, even poor old lead-poisoned Beethoven.)

kevinsinnott: I have that B6 and don't think much of it, though apparently that symphony has a comparatively poor record on disc anyway. I suspect that the two performances on that Pilz double are the same ones that appear on Point Classics - B4 credited to Milan Horvat = very good; B2 credited to Hans Zanotelli = bearable.
Also on Point Classics is B9/Mravinsky (1980). (The stereo is a bit unbalanced - increase the balance to the left channel (which at the same time reduces the audience noise in the right channel), and give the treble and bass a slight boost to counter boxiness.)

 

[JayG]

I haven't often heard Beethoven described as sensitive and generous. Especially toward the end of his life.

-Jay

 

[eyeresist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayG I haven't often heard Beethoven described as sensitive and generous. Especially toward the end of his life.

Well... in his own monomaniacal, apoplectic way, I guess.

 

[BAwig05]

Lorin Maazel's Bruckner 8th is a huge bargiin on EMI, as is Karajan's 4th on EMI. Both are about 7 dollars and both sound great.

Both are in Berlin.

--Brian

 

[kevinsinnott]

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyeresist /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have that B6 and don't think much of it, though apparently that symphony has a comparatively poor record on disc anyway. I suspect that the two performances on that Pilz double are the same ones that appear on Point Classics - B4 credited to Milan Horvat = very good; B2 credited to Hans Zanotelli = bearable. Also on Point Classics is B9/Mravinsky (1980). (The stereo is a bit unbalanced - increase the balance to the left channel (which at the same time reduces the audience noise in the right channel), and give the treble and bass a slight boost to counter boxiness.)

Those sound interesting. Perhaps the reason I find the Bruckner 6 on Point so good is its energy. I found a Bruckner 7 conducted by Pesek on Supraphon/Denon. I was particularly taken with the sweet Czech strings.

 

[DarkAngel]

As I await my DG Celi 7,8,9 I have returned to study Karajans Bruckner works

The 1970s Karajan/BPO/DG set is very strong and of the core works 4-9 only slightly weak link is 6, so along with Jochum set an essential core holding for Bruckner fans.

Important Karajan supplements to this set include:
VPO/DG 8th 1989
BPO/DG Galleria 9th 1966
BPO/EMI Classics 7th 1970 (Jesus Christus Kirche, Berlin! ART remaster)
BPO/EMI Classics 4th 1970 (Jesus Christus Kirche, Berlin! ART remaster)
VPO/Andante 9th 1978 (live, 4CD set with Bohm 7th and Furtwangler 8th)

For the longest time I assumed the DG Galleria 9th was the same version as contained in complete DG set.......it is not, so it is a must buy!
I think MJ just recently mentioned listening to 8th from set and how it differed from the final VPO version, so I decided to spend some time comparing three versions of Karajan 8 & 9 I have and will comment more soon.

The recent Celi EMI 3-9 set purchase has really peaked my interest in Bruckner and getting deep into these works.....

 

[DarkAngel]

Decided to get one more supplement for Karajan set:
Karajan/VPO/DG 7th (last recording by Karajan)

This will now give me a more complete view of Karajan's Bruckner 7,8,9 work over long time period and with different band (VPO)

Also received my Celibidache/DG 7,8,9 set......what a difference in style from the EMI set, like another conductor did these, must study these more.

 

[eyeresist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyeresist /img/forum/go_quote.gif kevinsinnott: ... I suspect that the two performances on that Pilz double are the same ones that appear on Point Classics - B4 credited to Milan Horvat = very good; B2 credited to Hans Zanotelli = bearable.

After checking the timings at the online Bruckner discography, I think the Adolph/Pilz performance is not the same as the Horvat/Point Classics one.

 

[DarkAngel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkAngel /img/forum/go_quote.gif As I await my DG Celi 7,8,9 I have returned to study Karajans Bruckner works The 1970s Karajan/BPO/DG set is very strong and of the core works 4-9 only slightly weak link is 6, so along with Jochum set an essential core holding for Bruckner fans. Important Karajan supplements to this set include: VPO/DG 8th 1989 BPO/DG Galleria 9th 1966 BPO/EMI Classics 7th 1970 (Jesus Christus Kirche, Berlin! ART remaster) BPO/EMI Classics 4th 1970 (Jesus Christus Kirche, Berlin! ART remaster) VPO/Andante 9th 1978 (live, 4CD set with Bohm 7th and Furtwangler 8th)

Another supplement needs to be added to list:
VPO/DG 7th 1990

As most probably know this was HVKs last recording before his death, and his long history of Bruckner works pay off here in a beautiful luminous performance, a refined majestic style with added tonal beauty of VPO used to full effect. Karajan's style is very sympathetic to many Bruckner symphonies especially 7,9 The rich tonal palette is masterfully painted, beauty goes hand in hand with power and glory this work can evoke, HVK is at the very top of his game here.........his closing passage in 4th movement to conclude work is beautiful beyond description, will have you awe struck

I would say the VPO/DG and BPO/EMI versions are slightly better than 7th contained is complete set (which is still great by any measure) and also have better sound quality. The EMI 7th has huge 3D soundstage thanks to church recording venue, and seems slightly more vigorous and dynamic, the VPO 7th is more spiritual and introspective as no doubt HVK was pondering these matters. No Bruckner collector can afford to not have the Karajan VPO 7th, it is essential.

 

[DarkAngel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkAngel /img/forum/go_quote.gif Another supplement needs to be added to list: VPO/DG 7th 1990 As most probably know this was HVKs last recording before his death, and his long history of Bruckner works pay off here in a beautiful luminous performance, a refined majestic style with added tonal beauty of VPO used to full effect..........his closing passage in 4th movement to conclude work is beautiful beyond description, will have you awe struck

I will officially say now that the VPO/DG 7th is best of his available recordings, perhaps the best version I have ever heard. This is really saying something since the other two Karajan recordings:
-BPO/EMI 1970
-BPO/DG 1977 (from complete set)
would each also rank very high on the list of best ever Bruckner 7ths.

I will also say that the famous VPO/DG 8th must take a back seat to the glorious 1976 BPO/DG 8th from complete set. The only drawback is sound quality since the DG set has a slightly thin/hot treble region compared to the richness and bloom of the newer VPO 8th, but the performance is inspired and more powerful while presenting all the deep subtle details. If this were remastered and issued as DG Originals version it would be gift from audio gods.......this will never happen as long as VPO 8th is selling at full price. Another reason why you must have the Karajan set.

Where have all the Bruckner faithful gone??????????