[dsonance]

My critical listening skills have developed by spending decades listening critically in as many situations to as much different gear and music/audio as possible. Whether that's monitoring my own performances live or in the studio, reviewing studio mixing and mastering on my own and my band's recordings, listening for and analyizing the differences between different versions of a given track or album (remasters/remixes released after an initial release), comparing and contrasting audio gear, analyzing musicians' performances in live and recorded settings to improve my own, etc.

Another key element has been educating myself about concepts important to critical listening like timbre, tone, imaging, separation, mixing and mastering techniques, styles, and shortcomings, recording techniques, manufacturing and tuning techniques, etc. The list goes on and on, but the important thing is to absorb information and learn about as many different facets of audio, music, and gear as you can. The more you listen to and compare and contrast gear and music and the more you educate yourself about the concepts of what to listen for the better you'll get at picking up in differences, nuances, and subtleties.

That said, all of that may not be something you end up wanting to do. I've become better at it now, but at one point I found it very difficult to turn off the critical side and just enjoy music once I got deep into it and it nearly deatroyed my love for the head-fi related hobbies. Only you can determine that, but I'll just say that it's important to maintain a balance between critical listening and musical enjoyment and to make sure you allow plenty of time for both.

As to your first question about scaling, having several different sources of amplification with varying degrees of available power on tap is the best way to determine how well a given transducer scales for you. You start listening on a lower powered setup and move up until you reach a level where there is no longer a performance increase with additional power. The thing with the math I mentioned earlier is that it doesn't account for all variables including our own limitations as listeners so the numbers don't always align with experience, but they are useful indicators.

I hope this was helpful and not just me rambling.

Edit: I should note that by differing degrees of power on tap I mean both varying mW or W as well as varying levels of voltage. The wattage will give you volume, but some drivers need increased current to really shine. Increased current can be just as important if not moreso as increased wattage when looking at scalability of harder to drive transducers.

This is very helpful. I was trying to do something like that, using BTR7, Atom and ZEN CAN. In fact, I got the two latter ones specifically for that purpose - I don't need a desktop setup otherwise. Every amp did change the sound slightly, as would be expected from the different circuitries involved, but the only clear improvement I could hear was going from the SE BTR7 output to its balanced one, and from the lower gain settings on ZEN CAN to the higher ones.

How about the track selection? Do you use something bass-heavy, something with a complex multi-layered soundstage, a wide dynamic range, etc.? Any specific recs?

 

[barato]

Wow, surprising to see there still is such an active earbud thread, I had noticed this thread for while but not looked at it until now and had just assumed it would include IEMs, and the title was a remnant from 2009.

Earbuds have just started to pique my interest for a few reasons.

First thing is that they have have larger drivers than virtually all IEMs (15mm vs <=10mm).

Larger drivers are more efficient and better equipped to produce bass, this is very true for speaker drivers and I have actually noticed a similar pattern in cheap IEMs I've owned, 10mm always felt more weighty and effortless in the bass compared to smaller 6-8mm.
Even now comparing the cheaper CX300s with the IE300 I can notice the same thing, the IE300 bass is much tighter and detailed yet the CX300s bass has a more realistic weight and presence to it.
I value bass a lot and would to see some good earbuds can do.

Second thing is impedance, I just noticed a lot of earbuds here are not limited to low impedances like IEMs are(<32 ohm, usually 16ohm).
Amplifiers do not like driving very low impedances and while low impedance may offer greater voltage sensitivity this is not really necessary even for portable use in my experience.
300 ohm HD650 can get uncomfortably loud on ever portable device I've ever owned, though manufacturers do like to advertise ridiculous SPL for their IEM which people see and automatically assume louder = better.
Greater voltage sensitivity also means noise and interference gets amplified, this is actually a big issue for a lot of amps and higher impedance would solve it and amps would be happier too.



Is it true that earbuds are not actually good at producing deep bass?

I been looking at the TRN EMX which is not too expensive and looks like it might be decent performer, the published graph show flat bass but this review shows significant rolloff which the reviewer both heard and confirmed with measurements, and even went on to say that is typical for earbuds
Considering that earbuds do seal like IEMs I feel like this could actually be true... Any comment?

 

[Ronion]

I had it 3D printed with an elastic rubber like material, not hard PLA. Maybe the resonance and sound reflections of mine will be different then yours?

Most likely, but here's what I got of the ff3 without foams:

The 80Hz bass bump is actually my fan running in the background so ignore it. I'd say judging by what we are seeing that if you can buy a fairly realistic rubbery human ear, you'd be much better off.

 

[JAnonymous5150]

This is very helpful. I was trying to do something like that, using BTR7, Atom and ZEN CAN. In fact, I got the two latter ones specifically for that purpose - I don't need a desktop setup otherwise. Every amp did change the sound slightly, as would be expected from the different circuitries involved, but the only clear improvement I could hear was going from the SE BTR7 output to its balanced one, and from the lower gain settings on ZEN CAN to the higher ones.

How about the track selection? Do you use something bass-heavy, something with a complex multi-layered soundstage, a wide dynamic range, etc.? Any specific recs?

Your various rigs should provide you with enough in the way of amplification variety to test scalability pretty well.

For track selection the style or whether it has heavy bass and such isn't nearly as important as some other things. First and most important in my book for test tracks of anything comparitive is to use a track or tracks you know like the back of your hand which is why me recommending one for you wouldn't be too helpful.

After that a large dynamic range both in terms of volume of the various instruments and sounds (from very soft to very loud) as well as complete sonic range from lows/bass through mids to the highs/treble. This is especially useful in scalability tests because tracks like these are very good at showing whether a driver is being provided with enough amplification to reproduce dynamics throughout it's sonic range. An inability to do that is one of the easiest signs to spot that a driver doesn't have enough power or current assuming you know that this is a quality transducer that should be capable of such performance.

Also, using tracks of the best resolution available to you always makes subtle differences in detail, dynamics, and resolution easy to hear. Ideally you'd also like to have alternate tracks available that or very busy or musically layered and tracks that have easily heard sources of micro details, sustain, and decay like cymbal crashes while not much else is going on or certain solo instrumental tracks because they'll allow you to hear if a driver is being powered well enough to reproduce those details and nuances ornif they're blunted or missing altogether from being underpowered.

All of this assumes that you know the transducer is capable of reproducing these traits when driven properly to begin with. For something like the Yinman 600s, there is enough of a track record from reviews and comments to know that they are. For more obscure transducers or for resolution comparisons you have to determine this yourself by using a setup that undoubtedly has the power and detail to feed the transducer and then listen.

Does all that make sense?

 

[dsonance]

Your various rigs should provide you with enough in the way of amplification variety to test scalability pretty well.

For track selection the style or whether it has heavy bass and such isn't nearly as important as some other things. First and most important in my book for test tracks of anything comparitive is to use a track or tracks you know like the back of your hand which is why me recommending one for you wouldn't be too helpful.

After that a large dynamic range both in terms of volume of the various instruments and sounds (from very soft to very loud) as well as complete sonic range from lows/bass through mids to the highs/treble. This is especially useful in scalability tests because tracks like these are very good at showing whether a driver is being provided with enough amplification to reproduce dynamics throughout it's sonic range. An inability to do that is one of the easiest signs to spot that a driver doesn't have enough power or current assuming you know that this is a quality transducer that should be capable of such performance.

Also, using tracks of the best resolution available to you always makes subtle differences in detail, dynamics, and resolution easy to hear. Ideally you'd also like to have alternate tracks available that or very busy or musically layered and tracks that have easily heard sources of micro details, sustain, and decay like cymbal crashes while not much else is going on or certain solo instrumental tracks because they'll allow you to hear if a driver is being powered well enough to reproduce those details and nuances ornif they're blunted or missing altogether from being underpowered.

All of this assumes that you know the transducer is capable of reproducing these traits when driven properly to begin with. For something like the Yinman 600s, there is enough of a track record from reviews and comments to know that they are. For more obscure transducers or for resolution comparisons you have to determine this yourself by using a setup that undoubtedly has the power and detail to feed the transducer and then listen.

Does all that make sense?

Absolutely. This is an excellent write-up! Thank you!

 

[JAnonymous5150]

Absolutely. This is an excellent write-up! Thank you!

Any time, my friend! If I can ever help you with anything feel free to post it and tag me in it or shoot me a PM and I'll always get back to you as soon as I have a chance. The last couple months I have been around a lot, but my schedule is ramping up so that's likely to change a bit. That said, I try to check my PMs at least a couple times a day because I have some running conversations going on so I'll see it and get back to you sooner or later.

Edit: Also, I'm a bit of an insomniac so I often end up tooling around on head-fi in the wee hours as well lol!

 

[tendou]

Would a 100setting when you plug the earbuds into a DAC amp connected to a computer blow them?
And how to know the driver is compromised?

 

[samandhi]

Thanks for the info, I was considering the upgrade to the M4 but I will keep my M2s Pro with the stock driver and the 150ohm titanium.

One last question, considering that in my opinion the two titanium drivers sound more or less the same (the 150 has more bass and is better in everything but the general tuning is the same) do you know an IEM that sounds similar?

It is very hard to correlate directly the sound from an earbud and sound from an IEM (they are more akin to open back headphones). And really, I would say it the other way around; there are a couple of earbuds that sound like IEMs (rather than IEMs that sound like earbuds).

Having said that, I don't have any (but one) that sound anything like an earbud (especially this one). For me the OG Tinhifi P1 sound fairly similar to this one. Most IEMs nowadays do have a bass boost, so it is not easy to find these days. The P1 are considered by those that like big bass to be bass light, but to my ears it is all there, just in less quantities than most listen to nowadays (much like the HD600s are).

As for similar overall properties (boosted pina gain namely), most IEMs by DUNU could be considered similar. But, not having owned or presently owning any, I would defer to others here that might have a set that sound similar.

Thank you, @samandhi ! I am thoroughly enjoying the Yinman!
And, the credit goes to you and @WoodyLuvr: it was based on your recommendations in this thread that I got them. So, many thanks for that too!

But, for the science of it I would still like to find a way to clearly determine if the amplification is optimal. Even if, in my case, ignorance is bliss, for sure.

Spoiler

You are very welcome! I am glad you are enjoying them. I love mine a TON still.

As for the science, to be honest, it is not going to be exact but only ideal numbers because most manufacturers either inflate or leave out numbers (in the weak spots) to make them appear better than they really are. Having said that, here are the numbers I found for the BTR7:

Power output @600 (according to their numbers):

• 5.7Vrms
• 54.15mW
• 9.5mA

Power needed to drive Yinmans to 110dBSPL:

• 6.93Vrms
• 80mW
• 11.5mA

So, according to the math and given their numbers it should not be able to drive them to 110dBSPL let alone drive them well. However, I suspect that these numbers may not be 100% accurate from FiiO (also keep in mind that the numbers above are calculated, not measured). Also, it looks like the balanced output impedance is pretty high @2.8ohms. This shouldn't affect the Yinmans at all though (remember the rule of 8 applies to output impedance).

You should also keep in mind that when someone says "oh these scale alot with more power", that is a subjective term, and could actually appear only subtle to another person. It is much like tip rolling with IEMs. The changes are only ever subtle at best, but to some they find that subtle change rather big their ears. It is JUST enough to change the overall sound and to them that might sound huge. To others it is very small.

For instance, using my 2W amp card with the Yinman, to my ears there is a huge difference between that and listening to them through my phone output as an example. In reality, it is small changes that add up to an overall sound change that I am hearing. And on top of all that, some might prefer the looser bass, and effects caused by under driving the driver (all goes back to sound preference), and there is nothing wrong with that at all.

As for me, I prefer to have something that is reference with some fun thrown into the mix, and for that they need to be driven to their full potential (and in some cases even overdriven can add that fun flare). Not that the Yinman are reference to begin with, but the clarity is at its best, and bass as tight and punchy as it can be when driven to full potential (IMO).

I just got a Dayton Audio iMM-6 and been playing with REW to get some FR graphs. I've read a few tutorials on how to setup REW and used the Dayton calibration file for my iMM-6. Other tutorial says it's better to not use the calibration file and do a manual calibration. Right now I'm using the headphone / microphone female TRRS jack on my laptop and it seems to be working ok(?). It's all still new to me, so forgive me for any mistakes. Anyway here's what I got for ST10s B&G 150 vs M4 ST10s 150. There are differences in the FR graphs, but also similarities as well. I took 5 FR readings for each driver and was going to average the 5 readings per driver together, but there was no reason to average them because the 5 FR graphs per driver were exactly the same.

I would say that even if they weren't totally accurate, as long as the readings are at least consistent, you can indeed get a good base as to the differences in the different buds (which shows here). Very nice!

Yeah, those calculations are part of the reason I'm thinking BTR7 can't be optimal... But, with the boost on, and at the lower volume, perhaps it is

I wish I could measure the actual power output, and see how much is getting drawn. According to Amir's measurements here - if I'm reading them correctly - BTR7 should be able to output over 5.7 Vrms with the 600 Ohm load. But, the math I've seen earlier in this thread seems to indicate that's not quite enough.

In any case, I'm curious what people are using to test how well different phones scale with power. I'm thinking, apart from just the sheer enjoyment of music (conditioned as that is by the subjective differences we all have in likes, dislikes, and perceptions in general), there's also an element of critical listening skill that can be developed. I'd love to learn more about how you guys approach this.

Normally with high impedance gear, I will start with something that I KNOW cannot push them well (Samsung Note 9) and listen to what it sounds like. What I am listening for is sloppy non textured bass, treble that can be a bit tinny or tizzy, lack of dynamic control (the driver's ability to render volume changes over a period of time), etc... This is all assuming you have SOME idea what the set is supposed to sound like (this is normally the tricky part because most of this testing isn't so much scientific, but based on differences or a base that you establish by using different gear and your ears).

Having established a base, I will move to a bit more power (fortunately for me I have DAPs that range in power from phone level outputs to 2W), and note the changes (if any), and so on until I have supplied the set with as much power as I can give it. One other tricky part is synergy. You may find that at some point (regardless of power) they seem to just sound perfect for your ears. Here is where I would stop (if I weren't such a pea-brain and just HAVE to know)...

That said, all of that may not be something you end up wanting to do. I've become better at it now, but at one point I found it very difficult to turn off the critical side and just enjoy music once I got deep into it and it nearly deatroyed my love for the head-fi related hobbies. Only you can determine that, but I'll just say that it's important to maintain a balance between critical listening and musical enjoyment and to make sure you allow plenty of time for both.

I was also going to suggest this. If you learn to do "critical listening" it may ruin you for sets that might otherwise be perfect for you. Sometimes ignorance IS indeed bliss! I find myself enjoying my older Sennheiser Momentum or B&W P5 much less now than I used to (not knowing any better) because of being able to do critical listening. It really is hard to turn off sometimes.

However, I feel that I am starting to appreciate all facets of audio where I CAN "turn it off" when I want to, so that I CAN enjoy less critical sets (fun tuning) for what they are. If you still want to be able to do critical listening, here are a few tips that can get you started (try and apply them to everyday listening as well). 7 tips to improve critical listening skills

Do I spy a new variation of the wooden box they are sent in?

I was going to say the same thing. It looks like a hybrid of what you got, and the "plain Jane" that I got. I actually like it a lot.

This is very helpful. I was trying to do something like that, using BTR7, Atom and ZEN CAN. In fact, I got the two latter ones specifically for that purpose - I don't need a desktop setup otherwise. Every amp did change the sound slightly, as would be expected from the different circuitries involved, but the only clear improvement I could hear was going from the SE BTR7 output to its balanced one, and from the lower gain settings on ZEN CAN to the higher ones.

How about the track selection? Do you use something bass-heavy, something with a complex multi-layered soundstage, a wide dynamic range, etc.? Any specific recs?

As @JAnonymous5150 said, track selection should be based solely on your familiarity with the song. I would also pick songs (that you know very well) that are varied in what they do (e.g. heavy dynamics, bassy, instrumental, busy songs, etc...). Once you start building a base of what the driver can and cannot do, you start doing this with all your head gear by simply listening.

Reviews CAN be a great thing, but often times are a bit misleading if you take everything they say at face value. There is no such thing as objective where a review is concerned. Most times they are (in their mind) comparing the set they are reviewing to a known set that matches their preferred signature. Having said that, they can also be invaluable in that if a known reviewer has a similar preference, you can match as many items on their list as you would listen for.

Crinacle has been an invaluable reviewer for me. I NEVER agree wtih his reviews, but he is SUPER consistant, and that helps me know what to discard and what to take away from his reviews. A couple of my top picks (in IEMs) have come from his "C" and "D" rankings.

When I get a new set, I always listen for the drums (not JUST bass drums mind you). If I can hear all of the snares, toms, kick drums, cymbals, etc... at roughly the same volume level, then that is a really good start for me, and I can move on to different facets about that sound that I either like or not. Basically, it takes many listening sessions to get a good handle on the intricacies of the sound (taking one part of the sound at a time).

I been looking at the TRN EMX which is not too expensive and looks like it might be decent performer, the published graph show flat bass but this review shows significant rolloff which the reviewer both heard and confirmed with measurements, and even went on to say that is typical for earbuds
Considering that earbuds do seal like IEMs I feel like this could actually be true... Any comment?

Often times earbuds do indeed have low rolloff because they don't actually seal in your ears like IEMs do. When referring to a seal for earbuds that is really describing how well they sit in your concha and how close they are able to remain to your ear canal (to at least get a consistent sound). They will never be as bassy as even some lesser quantity IEMs usually are.

Having said that, there have been quite a few of late that have some pretty massive bass for an earbud (FiiO FF3, Yinman 2.0 600, etc...)

 

[samandhi]

Would a 100setting when you plug the earbuds into a DAC amp connected to a computer blow them?
And how to know the driver is compromised?

That all depends on the power output of the DAC/amp that you are feeding into the earbud, at what volume it is capable of pushing the bud, and how much physical movement that the driver can handle before blowing. With modern drivers it is much harder than it used to be to make this happen. Remember the days when most speakers were paper? Those were pretty easy to blow when feeding it too much volume (not necessarily power).

Think of it just like your old car speakers when they are blown. You will hear consistent distortion on certain frequencies (usually either really high, or really low). Or they just won't work at all.

 

[fooltoque]

Wow, surprising to see there still is such an active earbud thread, I had noticed this thread for while but not looked at it until now and had just assumed it would include IEMs, and the title was a remnant from 2009.

Earbuds have just started to pique my interest for a few reasons.

First thing is that they have have larger drivers than virtually all IEMs (15mm vs <=10mm).

Larger drivers are more efficient and better equipped to produce bass, this is very true for speaker drivers and I have actually noticed a similar pattern in cheap IEMs I've owned, 10mm always felt more weighty and effortless in the bass compared to smaller 6-8mm.
Even now comparing the cheaper CX300s with the IE300 I can notice the same thing, the IE300 bass is much tighter and detailed yet the CX300s bass has a more realistic weight and presence to it.
I value bass a lot and would to see some good earbuds can do.

Second thing is impedance, I just noticed a lot of earbuds here are not limited to low impedances like IEMs are(<32 ohm, usually 16ohm).
Amplifiers do not like driving very low impedances and while low impedance may offer greater voltage sensitivity this is not really necessary even for portable use in my experience.
300 ohm HD650 can get uncomfortably loud on ever portable device I've ever owned, though manufacturers do like to advertise ridiculous SPL for their IEM which people see and automatically assume louder = better.
Greater voltage sensitivity also means noise and interference gets amplified, this is actually a big issue for a lot of amps and higher impedance would solve it and amps would be happier too.



Is it true that earbuds are not actually good at producing deep bass?

I been looking at the TRN EMX which is not too expensive and looks like it might be decent performer, the published graph show flat bass but this review shows significant rolloff which the reviewer both heard and confirmed with measurements, and even went on to say that is typical for earbuds
Considering that earbuds do seal like IEMs I feel like this could actually be true... Any comment?

Welcome to the thread.

I'm going to leave the more technical questions to more knowledgeable folks here, but yeah as you say it is true that getting deep bass in earbuds is more challenging. That said, as a moderate bass-head myself, in the last few months I've found myself 2 earbuds that totally fit my needs bass-wise. FiiO FF3, which is really popular around here lately, and the Berzerker 1, one of the DIY offerings from a earbuds thread resident, @RikudouGoku. Riku's bud I actually EQ down the bass just a touch, cause it's a bit too much for me.

 

[samandhi]

Welcome to the thread.

I'm going to leave the more technical questions to more knowledgeable folks here, but yeah as you say it is true that getting deep bass in earbuds is more challenging. That said, as a moderate bass-head myself, in the last few months I've found myself 2 earbuds that totally fit my needs bass-wise. FiiO FF3, which is really popular around here lately, and the Berzerker 1, one of the DIY offerings from a earbuds thread resident, @RikudouGoku. Riku's bud I actually EQ down the bass just a touch, cause it's a bit too much for me.

Ah! Good call. I forgot to mention @ RikudouGoku's buds. I haven't heard them but have read here that those are indeed very bassy for buds.

 

[mt877]

Most likely, but here's what I got of the ff3 without foams:

The 80Hz bass bump is actually my fan running in the background so ignore it. I'd say judging by what we are seeing that if you can buy a fairly realistic rubbery human ear, you'd be much better off.

Thanks. Yeah, I saw some of those calibration ears on AE and was actually thinking of to get one with a generic 'calibrated' measuring mic setup, but didn't want to go overboard. Wow, your measurements with the adapter are pretty wonky looking. I can see the blue trace is more representative of what the FR graph should look like. I agree my FF3 graph is far from perfect, but not totally worthless, lol. My capture does 'loosely' follow the general plot of the FF3 graph from FiiO.

I still have further setup to do. I'm think about changing the audio chain in my setup to see how that goes as well.

 

[Stuff Jones]

Here's a pic after taking off the foams. You can see a little gold left in the middle, but the rest is silver (not brass) like the rest of the bud. I've only had them since May, and purchased them new.

@MOONDROP - Do you have any comment on this? Has the material of the Chaconne been changed? (sent a PM and email but have not heard back).

 

[samandhi]

@MOONDROP - Do you have any comment on this? Has the material of the Chaconne been changed? (sent a PM and email but have not heard back).

Yeah, and in your picture, it almost looks etched also (unless I am seeing wrong).

Have you tried their FB page or Discord? I don't know if they have a presence there, but it doesn't hurt to check.

 

[baskingshark]

Would a 100setting when you plug the earbuds into a DAC amp connected to a computer blow them?
And how to know the driver is compromised?

Whenever I plug a dongle/source into the PC/laptop, or put an IEM/earbud into a source, I always ensure the volume knob goes to ZERO or MUTE. Then adjust upwards from there once the music plays. Had bad experiences before of the volume remaining at 100% and causing a shock to the ears, and worry about driver damage.


I spoke to some audio engineers before, generally, DDs are quite tough, and the voice coil/diaphragm won't blow with a few seconds of loud sound. With prolonged duration of the signal, then maybe the driver will get damaged though, but for brief 1 - 2 seconds of a loud burst and you stop the sound, generally the driver is okay. BAs are another story though, they are generally more fragile than DDs.

If you are worried, you can do a frequency sweep using any online/youtube link and check that there is no distortion or volume imbalance from 20 hz to 20 khz. A blown driver is quite obvious, it sounds low volume and like a tin can.