Does a DAC make a giant difference?
Aug 20, 2011 at 7:56 PM Post #91 of 151


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By who?  I certainly don't think along those lines but maybe that helps me when it comes to expectation bias.  Frankly I'd only expect newbies to think this way until they realise old stuff often sounds just as good and sometimes better than the new competition.

I explained this and I'm not really sure how else to put it.  I think most people would be swayed to thinking the fluffed up piece of gear sounds better even if they both sounded the same, but to say every single person would think this just doesn't make any sense to me.  The reason for this is because some (I'd hope most) of us are free thinkers who make up our own mind when comparing gear.  Why bother listening otherwise?


I think there's at least a general expectation that a new audio product should be better than what it replaces. I'm not saying that a speaker designed in 2011 must sound better than one designed in 2001. If I thought that, I wouldn't be using a vintage 20-bit EAD DAC. I'm talking about direct replacements from the same manufacturer. I would expect my DSP-7000 S3 to sound better than the S2, and it does. Same with the Theta Gen Va vs the Gen V, etc. When you redesign a component, you're expected to make it better. When you don't, you're going to hear about it. See the Sennheiser PX-100 II. Lots of unhappy people there.
 
If you take that free thinking attitude and combine it with a bit of critical listening skills, you should be able to sit down and listen to a couple of components and decide which one you think is better. Biases can be put aside. This is what I've been saying! Many of the proponents of ABX believe that we cannot think for ourselves, and that putting aside bias in a sighted test is impossible. If I listen to two components that sound very similar and both sound good, but one costs twice as much, give me the cheap one.
 
 
Aug 20, 2011 at 8:01 PM Post #92 of 151
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I think there's at least a general expectation that a new audio product should be better than what it replaces. I'm not saying that a speaker designed in 2011 must sound better than one designed in 2001. If I thought that, I wouldn't be using a vintage 20-bit EAD DAC. I'm talking about direct replacements from the same manufacturer. I would expect my DSP-7000 S3 to sound better than the S2, and it does. Same with the Theta Gen Va vs the Gen V, etc. When you redesign a component, you're expected to make it better. When you don't, you're going to hear about it. See the Sennheiser PX-100 II. Lots of unhappy people there.


Well, I suppose that might explain the 360 vs 360S, huh?
 
Aug 20, 2011 at 8:39 PM Post #93 of 151


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I'm not sure the car analogy really works. Manufacturers definitely screw up, and reviewers (good ones at least) trash their new products when they do. Take the new BMW 5 series, for example. The E39 of two generations ago is almost universally beloved for its classic BMW attributes - steering precision, handling, and balance. The 540i Sport wasn't a rocket ship, and the in car technology was basically a joke, but everybody loves that car. The E60 brought really polarizing styling and a lot of gadgetry that was new and didn't work all that well and the car got criticized for those things, while still being praised as the iconic drivers car.
 
Now there's the F10 5 series. The restrained styling is back and the technology has improved and advanced by leaps and bounds. Great right? Not so great. The car is now a cut-down 7 series, it's too heavy, too soft, and the precise BMW steering and road feel are gone, replaced by an electric dial. You'll find this type of thing across the industry - cars in general are getting bigger, fatter, and duller to drive. The Honda Accord used to be considered the fun family car choice. Now it's a boat.
 



While I still need a whole lot more convincing in regards to the benefits of power conditioning in the average household, that was one of the best observations about cars (and BMWs in particular) that I've read in this forum.
 
Aug 20, 2011 at 10:31 PM Post #94 of 151


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While I still need a whole lot more convincing in regards to the benefits of power conditioning in the average household, that was one of the best observations about cars (and BMWs in particular) that I've read in this forum.


Hahaha. Run flats, active steering, the dumb shifters they use now - don't even get me started. Powerline products are something you have to experience in your own home, with your system. They are definitely not all created equal either. You don't have to spend a fortune, but plan on spending at least $500 if you want to hear noticeable improvements.
 
Aug 21, 2011 at 3:42 AM Post #95 of 151
Quote:
If you take that free thinking attitude and combine it with a bit of critical listening skills, you should be able to sit down and listen to a couple of components and decide which one you think is better. Biases can be put aside. This is what I've been saying! Many of the proponents of ABX believe that we cannot think for ourselves, and that putting aside bias in a sighted test is impossible. If I listen to two components that sound very similar and both sound good, but one costs twice as much, give me the cheap one.


I suppose this thread is so much back and forth on topic that I can reflect some more on what DaveBSC is noting above, which I largely agree on. To the OP, your question has been answered earlier in several ways and you're not going to get a better answer at this point. It's just us stragglers who refuse to go home after the bar closed that are left here discussing now :wink:
 
The problem with relying on critical listening skills is that it takes time to develop them as extensive experience with many different systems is required. Time is no guarantee either, as having someone else with experience help you on the way can be an invaluable guide to learning (just as in any learning situation) and thus both extending (if you don't have any guidance, or the wrong type of guidance) or shortening the time frame. This means that there is no way around the fact that many who comment on experiences fall into the categories of 'exaggerating', 'overconfident', 'imagining things', 'not enough confidence', or 'focusing on other aspects' which are governed by different agendas than the more neutral experienced listeners. Being exposed to widely different equipment over extended time is still mandatory for all who truly wish to learn not only how to become a critical listener, but also which quirks that each such listener (including yourself) appears to favor and thus is influenced by.
 
On top of this, we all hear and inherently prefer different sound signatures based on these experiences (and quite plausibly the order in which we are exposed to them). This may be affected by the music we typically appreciate (less of a factor for myself, but a big deal for some), how we listen to music (depending on if it particular sounds, instruments, rhythms, voices, etc, that makes the music tick for us), how loudly we prefer to listen to music (maybe in particular relevant for speakers, but certainly something that is mentioned for some headphones as well), and so on... This further implies that even among the more neutral experienced listeners, differences exist.
 
This creates a situation which makes many people uncomfortable, due to the wide range of opinions between people of less experience (including in terms of guiding others to find their preferences) and those with considerable experience (among which there is still a great range of different opinions). To get guidance, those who are starting to become interested have an absolute jungle of opinions to sift through. I'm thus not the least surprised that many people look to metrics as a way to find The One Answer. I'm all for each person finding their own way to improve (i.e. become more aware of their own subjective) preferences, including using metrics to test listening experiences. What I never get - but they are free to do and think as they wish - is those that seem to hold onto metrics as the holy grail. Among the people I have met who share this 'metrics-FTW' belief system, I have found it absolutely striking how much some of them (not all) strive to justify these metrics in whatever they are listening to. To me, they are as bad as those who believe any multi-syllable phrases of a fancy reviewer in a fancy high-end magazine. I've had many customers (no, I'm not MOT anymore - this is several years ago and I do completely different things for a living nowadays) I didn't have the nerve to tell them that they weren't always listening to what they so feverishly stating that they heard based on the metrics they knew of.
 
Thus - in my experience - metrics can as easily be abused as qualitative opinions when it comes to affecting the perceived (or imagined) sound from equipment that is being tested. To each, her own. I believe that our (personal) main objective when considering various equipment should be to question our own assumptions, regardless which belief system we hold onto. The challenge should be in finding the balance between doubting our own abilities and believing in them enough to actually advance our experiences in terms of listening and appreciating music. I personally believe that holding onto my wallet is a good sanity check when doing this, but I am also quite happy to spend money when I do find something (whatever!) that actually makes a significant positive impact on my preferred music experience. In between, I'd rather hold onto it and wait until something does come out that makes a bigger impression than pick up any little new piece of equipment that comes out. 
 
I've extensively used various setups and alternatives for blind reviews, and quite honestly - they were more for others to take part in as I learnt very little new in them myself. Granted, I don't care what brand or cash lies between anything and happily focus only on what makes a sonic impact that I find favorable. Once approaching equipment in this fashion and you truly can disconnect yourself from the bling appeal, every test implicitly becomes a blind test. I don't know if it's the 'wallet factor' that keeps me from easily resisting attractive re-packaging of what is otherwise the same or worse sounding stuff. It could just as well be the 'stick-it-to-the-manitis' that Jack Black suffered from in School of Rock, but yeah... I definitely agree with you, Dave - as soon as someone tries to force me into an ABX test, I immediately want to punch them in the face and leave the room. If they ask me nicely if I would be interested, I'd more than happily participate. I guess I'm a bit over-sensitive to having someone else's presumptions shoved down my throat from the years of questioning my own assumptions...
 
Edit: Spelling.
 
Aug 21, 2011 at 6:16 AM Post #96 of 151
What I love the most about these discussions is the fact that the more heated they get, the longer the posts become.
965 words. Geez, that's more than a page. :wink:
 
Aug 21, 2011 at 6:22 AM Post #97 of 151
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What I love the most about these discussions is the fact that the more heated they get, the longer the posts become.
965 words. Geez, that's more than a page.
wink.gif


Lol - for someone like me (who work with writing research - different topic than hi-fi, though), it's more of a challenge to keep it as short as this :wink:
 
 
Aug 21, 2011 at 7:15 AM Post #98 of 151
Lol - for someone like me (who work with writing research - different topic than hi-fi, though), it's more of a challenge to keep it as short as this :wink:
 

That's why I think word limits are evil in school assignments.
Right now I have to write a very important essay and the 4,000 word limit is bugging me. Partly because MS Word counts terms in an equation as words, giving me a false estimate.
 
Aug 21, 2011 at 2:35 PM Post #99 of 151
From my own recent listening tests and similar to what others have said, I don't think there's a significant difference between reasonable DACs.  I compared a 20yr old built-in DAC from a Sony ES preamp, to recent DAC from an Audio-GD NFB-12, to the built in DAC of a Sony SACD/DVD player.  I just couldn't tell the difference, through speakers or DT880/600's.  As others said, perhaps if you have a cheap soundcard in a noisy PC/laptop, there would be a difference.  I haven't yet tried to insert a really cheap DAC into the mix.
 
But what I can say from my own experience (and as others have said as well), is that the headphones or speakers make a HUGE and the biggest difference.  My well-regarded IEMs (Ety ER-4P and UE TripleFi 10's) don't hold up well at all against the Beyer DT880/600's.  The DT880's are well balanced, non-fatiguing, and wonderful to listen to. 
 
 
Apr 3, 2012 at 6:39 AM Post #100 of 151
Thanks to everybody for the fascinating read that is this Thread.  I am interested in a variety of S/P-DIF contingencies for my Asus® XONAR® Essence STX, primarily in terms of external DAC platforms to back up the STX's internal DAC's and amplifiers; scenarios include not only external power DACs to drive various studio-monitor 'phones, and line-level DACs to drive (for instance) a McIntosh/Mackie/Avantgarde matrix-monitor speaker installation, but also S/P-DIF-fed digital wireless earset systems consistent with in-ear stage monitors.  A properly-designed and -implemented DAC should work comparably to, if not better than, the stock DAC's in the Essence STX.
 
In terms of design, what should the external-DAC user look for in terms of actual DAC chips, operational or current amplifiers, and power supply implementation for studio-grade frequency response and appropriate soundstage characteristics for the anticipated environment of use?  Most DACs require op amps to transform the DAC chips' differential current output into a voltage output that external electronics can amplify.
 
 
Apr 3, 2012 at 7:15 AM Post #101 of 151
Getting bit perfect with asynchronous USB to spdif followed by a decent DAC is goind to blow your mind!
Cheap is possible, but reliable it is most likely not to be affordable.
 
Apr 3, 2012 at 7:53 AM Post #102 of 151


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Thanks to everybody for the fascinating read that is this Thread.  I am interested in a variety of S/P-DIF contingencies for my Asus® XONAR® Essence STX, primarily in terms of external DAC platforms to back up the STX's internal DAC's and amplifiers; scenarios include not only external power DACs to drive various studio-monitor 'phones, and line-level DACs to drive (for instance) a McIntosh/Mackie/Avantgarde matrix-monitor speaker installation, but also S/P-DIF-fed digital wireless earset systems consistent with in-ear stage monitors.  A properly-designed and -implemented DAC should work comparably to, if not better than, the stock DAC's in the Essence STX.
 
In terms of design, what should the external-DAC user look for in terms of actual DAC chips, operational or current amplifiers, and power supply implementation for studio-grade frequency response and appropriate soundstage characteristics for the anticipated environment of use?  Most DACs require op amps to transform the DAC chips' differential current output into a voltage output that external electronics can amplify.
 


Start by getting rid of the Xonar. If you want to seriously get into high-end computer audio, you may actually want to think about a dedicated computer solely for that purpose. You can just buy one (Auraliti PK-90 USB, for example) or you can DIY, see the Computer Audiophile CAPS server for a guide on how to do that. In any case, once you have your USB output, you can chose a USB > S/Pdif converter for use with your DAC of choice, or you can go with a dedicated USB DAC. Asynchronous is a must in either case. Good converters range from about $200-3000, starting with the Musical Fidelity V-link II, and ending with the Sonicweld Diverter HR and Stahl-tek ABC. Asynchronous USB DACs from Musical Fidelity, HRT, Halide, and Cambridge are also quite affordable, and the price range there  goes to the moon.
 
Apr 3, 2012 at 9:00 AM Post #103 of 151
DACs are useful if your sound card is bad.
 
Apr 3, 2012 at 9:18 PM Post #104 of 151


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Start by getting rid of the Xonar. If you want to seriously get into high-end computer audio, you may actually want to think about a dedicated computer solely for that purpose. You can just buy one (Auraliti PK-90 USB, for example) or you can DIY, see the Computer Audiophile CAPS server for a guide on how to do that. In any case, once you have your USB output, you can chose a USB > S/Pdif converter for use with your DAC of choice, or you can go with a dedicated USB DAC. Asynchronous is a must in either case. Good converters range from about $200-3000, starting with the Musical Fidelity V-link II, and ending with the Sonicweld Diverter HR and Stahl-tek ABC. Asynchronous USB DACs from Musical Fidelity, HRT, Halide, and Cambridge are also quite affordable, and the price range there  goes to the moon.


The dedicated-computer approach is unworkable for me as of April 2012, as my Asus® CM1630-06 is also needed for two-way Internet video, and the STX is one of few audio cards that can be run alongside a video card (in my case, adjacent to an EAH6850 DirectCU®, which I purchased to give the CM1630 sufficient video performance for UStream® Producer).  I found in previous testing that the planar VIA® VT1281 audio chip on the CM1630's M4A78-EM motherboard picked up internal digital noise at the microphone input (not the case with the STX, which heavily shields the Mic-Line input jack in addition to its entire analog-output section).
 
The asynchronous-USB approach may come into consideration in the future, as USB 3.0 has 24/196-ready duplex throughput capacity (my Internet activities require no more than 24/48 as of April 2012); it would, of course, require a rebuild of the CM1630 with a newer-design Micro-ATX mobo than the M4A78-EM, which packs USB 2.0.  And thanks for the Computer Audiophile ref; I'll see what research the group cited did into high-performance/high-fidelity duplex, as an offboard ADC/DAC would work with any recording console.
 
Apr 4, 2012 at 12:10 AM Post #105 of 151
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This creates a situation which makes many people uncomfortable, due to the wide range of opinions between people of less experience (including in terms of guiding others to find their preferences) and those with considerable experience (among which there is still a great range of different opinions). To get guidance, those who are starting to become interested have an absolute jungle of opinions to sift through. I'm thus not the least surprised that many people look to metrics as a way to find The One Answer. I'm all for each person finding their own way to improve (i.e. become more aware of their own subjective) preferences, including using metrics to test listening experiences. What I never get - but they are free to do and think as they wish - is those that seem to hold onto metrics as the holy grail.

Well said.
 
 

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