[Joeybgood]

When a person auditions an amp, they, of course, have it paired with a DAC. How does one know that what they are hearing thru their cans is due to the amp vs the Dac? Speaking of that, what percentage of the sound that comes flowing into your headphones is due to the Dac vs the Amp in your opinion? as in, which makes the biggest difference? I ask because folks are giving the new Cavalli Liquid Carbon extremely rave reviews and I am in the market to upgrade my amp but am really in need of understanding how folks discern between the impact of the Dac(in the final sound output) and that of the amp. tks!

 

[mrscotchguy]

When a person auditions an amp, they, of course, have it paired with a DAC. How does one know that what they are hearing thru their cans is due to the amp vs the Dac? Speaking of that, what percentage of the sound that comes flowing into your headphones is due to the Dac vs the Amp in your opinion? as in, which makes the biggest difference? I ask because folks are giving the new Cavalli Liquid Carbon extremely rave reviews and I am in the market to upgrade my amp but am really in need of understanding how folks discern between the impact of the Dac(in the final sound output) and that of the amp. tks!

I'll take a stab at this one....

Ideally, both your DAC and Amp are transparent and what you're hearing is the headphone and the recording. The more equipment in the chain, the more the hardware can "get in the way". That said, some gear is just more revealing than others. Certain headphones just react more to change in the chain to my ears, just as some of my headphones I cannot notice when a tube is rolled, where other times it's completely obvious!

There is no percentage, certainly no magic formula either... but from what I have found, if you have a well built amplifier that doesn't color the sound and a quality headphone (some say these are source-picky cans) then cycling through DACs will be easier to notice.

When I first started the hobby, I could barely notice changes in sound from one headphone to the next, let alone amps or dacs. As our brains learn to "pay attention" to the sound signatures, flavors, strengths, and weaknesses, these miniscule changes become easier and quicker to spot.

I like to equate it to my industry. In the alcohol business, customers have a very difficult time even figuring out what the like and don't like about their preferred drink. Once we teach them the vocabulary, they can comfortably have a conversation without second guessing everything they say. From that point, the customer can quickly identify very broad markers that describes their tastes. These are the building blocks, the foundation that takes people from basic consmers to enthusiasts.

Identifying wine varietals in a blind tasting doesn't make drinking wine more enjoyable for the masses, but can be fun for the hobbiests, like us, but with headphone gear.

Without these building blocks, most people cannot even tell you what they like, let along describe differences between two selections.

So back to HeadFi, if you have very forgiving equipment, then you might not notice changes in the stream. The only way to tell what exactly changes is to keep some sort of control when testing equipment.

And this is where long ago, I lost interest in listening to gear. I'd rather just listen to music and comfortable headphones.

If you're spending to much time looking for changes, you're probably going to hear massive changes from tiny little tweaks, since that's how our brain works.

I started off looking for the most detailed and resolving sound. That's nice and all if you're listening to super high-fidelity, well recorded music. Unfortunately, my tastes are for music that typically was recorded by new artists and probably never been in a studio before... or pop. I have a guilty pleasure for pop.

With this type of music, how much will uber-resolving equipment help, truly.

So I decided to try a more forgiving DAC that smooths out some of this. Because it's more forgiving, I did noticed I lost some soundstage and a touch of sub-bass response. But rather than throwing in the towel, I let me ears get used to the sound "brain burn-in", and paired this with my ultra-resolving, bright, or bass-heavy cans and it toned down the hot spots.

The only real way to test if it was the dac, amp, or a combo of both is to test each new piece of gear separately in a familiar chain.

Long story short... it is common on headfi to use the following advice:

Most impact on sound signature changes
Headphones > Amp > DAC >>>>>> cables (way down there)

This is true most of the time, but throw a colored dac or amp in the mix, that certainly can change that rule of thumb.

Ultimately, it's all up to your ears, your gear, and your sensitivity to change.

Wewph... I can take a breath! Hope this helps.

 

[Joeybgood]

I'll take a stab at this one....

Ideally, both your DAC and Amp are transparent and what you're hearing is the headphone and the recording. The more equipment in the chain, the more the hardware can "get in the way". That said, some gear is just more revealing than others. Certain headphones just react more to change in the chain to my ears, just as some of my headphones I cannot notice when a tube is rolled, where other times it's completely obvious!

There is no percentage, certainly no magic formula either... but from what I have found, if you have a well built amplifier that doesn't color the sound and a quality headphone (some say these are source-picky cans) then cycling through DACs will be easier to notice.

When I first started the hobby, I could barely notice changes in sound from one headphone to the next, let alone amps or dacs. As our brains learn to "pay attention" to the sound signatures, flavors, strengths, and weaknesses, these miniscule changes become easier and quicker to spot.

I like to equate it to my industry. In the alcohol business, customers have a very difficult time even figuring out what the like and don't like about their preferred drink. Once we teach them the vocabulary, they can comfortably have a conversation without second guessing everything they say. From that point, the customer can quickly identify very broad markers that describes their tastes. These are the building blocks, the foundation that takes people from basic consmers to enthusiasts.

Identifying wine varietals in a blind tasting doesn't make drinking wine more enjoyable for the masses, but can be fun for the hobbiests, like us, but with headphone gear.

Without these building blocks, most people cannot even tell you what they like, let along describe differences between two selections.

So back to HeadFi, if you have very forgiving equipment, then you might not notice changes in the stream. The only way to tell what exactly changes is to keep some sort of control when testing equipment.

And this is where long ago, I lost interest in listening to gear. I'd rather just listen to music and comfortable headphones.

If you're spending to much time looking for changes, you're probably going to hear massive changes from tiny little tweaks, since that's how our brain works.

I started off looking for the most detailed and resolving sound. That's nice and all if you're listening to super high-fidelity, well recorded music. Unfortunately, my tastes are for music that typically was recorded by new artists and probably never been in a studio before... or pop. I have a guilty pleasure for pop.

With this type of music, how much will uber-resolving equipment help, truly.

So I decided to try a more forgiving DAC that smooths out some of this. Because it's more forgiving, I did noticed I lost some soundstage and a touch of sub-bass response. But rather than throwing in the towel, I let me ears get used to the sound "brain burn-in", and paired this with my ultra-resolving, bright, or bass-heavy cans and it toned down the hot spots.

The only real way to test if it was the dac, amp, or a combo of both is to test each new piece of gear separately in a familiar chain.

Long story short... it is common on headfi to use the following advice:

Most impact on sound signature changes
Headphones > Amp > DAC >>>>>> cables (way down there)

This is true most of the time, but throw a colored dac or amp in the mix, that certainly can change that rule of thumb.

Ultimately, it's all up to your ears, your gear, and your sensitivity to change.

Wewph... I can take a breath! Hope this helps.

Wow!!  I cannot thank you enough for taking the time to write out this very detailed and understandable answer to my question(s). This actually makes a great deal of sense to me. I guess it's time for me to relax and enjoy the reason I decided to get into higher end  headfi audio equipment to begin with.... my absolute love of music. Again, your generosity is so appreciated. Oh , and, I am a bit of a beer geek and like to go on and about differences in the many styles of beer(malty varieities, Hoppy varieties, Etc) but 10 yrs ago all I knew is that I LIKED the tast of a certain style of beer. In time, I too will have a much improved knowledge of what and why I like what I like in the HeadFi arena! Cheers!!!

 

[porridgecup]

Just a tip: if you want to experiment with being able to recognize different sound signatures without buying/auditioning headphones, mess around with a good equalizer like Equalizer APO for Windows. Once you start emphasizing certain frequencies over others, your ear and brain will be able to notice the differences, and you'll be able to articulate if something sounds bright or dark or harsh or relaxed, which can help you when shopping around for amps and DACs. The EQ won't be able to capture the differences perfectly compared to swapping gear, but if your headphones are already decent then they'll do a pretty good job at emulating different sound signatures.

 

[mrscotchguy]

  Wow!!  I cannot thank you enough for taking the time to write out this very detailed and understandable answer to my question(s). This actually makes a great deal of sense to me. I guess it's time for me to relax and enjoy the reason I decided to get into higher end  headfi audio equipment to begin with.... my absolute love of music. Again, your generosity is so appreciated. Oh , and, I am a bit of a beer geek and like to go on and about differences in the many styles of beer(malty varieities, Hoppy varieties, Etc) but 10 yrs ago all I knew is that I LIKED the tast of a certain style of beer. In time, I too will have a much improved knowledge of what and why I like what I like in the HeadFi arena! Cheers!!!

 Yes, enjoy the music... it's far too easy to get swept up with the gear collecting hobby. But then we miss the best part, the music.  Nothing is more enjoyable than a friend or HeadFier forwarding me a YouTube link to a band/group I've never heard of and falling in love all over again.
 
If your equipment no longer gives your enjoyment, then that's the time to consider upgrading.  Until then, follow I motto I picked up on a Homebrew forum back when I had time for those shenanigans... RDWHAHB (Relax, Don't Worry, and Have a Homebrew!) SBREYH! (Sit Back, Relax, & Enjoy Your Headphones!)

 

[Liu Junyuan]

The Cavalli amp is going to be great. I don't think you need to worry about Cavalli releasing a poorly performing amplifier. 
 
To answer your question, one way the best way to isolate amp from DAC is to bring along a second amp or DAC and listen for patterns between both.* I am of the camp that does find the DAC makes a noticeable difference to how music sounds. I have owned only three modest DACS: Musical Fidelity VDAC for three years, Schiit Audio Modi (1) for about a year, and now the Schiit Audio Gungnir. Going between the first two DACs was more difficult to discern the differences, but they were present. But when I first heard the Gungnir, the difference between it and the Modi was extremely obvious. I suspect that the new Modi 2 Uber would be closer in sound signature to the Gungnir, however. 
 
Amps are also tricky, but the same criteria holds. I think it's best to figure out what your preferences are and read some reviews of amps and DACs to find which ones align with your preferences. Your decision should also depend on the headphone you are using, as high Z cans tend to excel with OTL amps, warm cans tend to sound overly warm with warm amps/dacs, and so on. 
 
What @mrscotchguy said above about headphones varying in their sensitivity to other gear is absolutely correct. One of the headphones most notorious for revealing the characteristics of an audio chain is the Sennheiser HD800, which takes great care and effort to sound right. Ostensibly from recent impressions of Canjam, the forthcoming Mr. Speakers Ether similarly excels at revealing the traits of the audio chain. Another headphone from my experience that shares this are the AKG K700 series. My AKG K7XX sounds absolutely awful on the O2 amp, for example, but it really matches perfectly with the Lyr--this is through the same DAC. 
 
I hope this helps you somewhat.
 
*There are obviously more scientific methods than this, but in the absence of those, this would be your best option. That is why 
 
@Stillhart and others brought portable gear to Canjam--to better isolate components in the chain. 

 

[Joeybgood]

  The Cavalli amp is going to be great. I don't think you need to worry about Cavalli releasing a poorly performing amplifier. 
 
To answer your question, one way the best way to isolate amp from DAC is to bring along a second amp or DAC and listen for patterns between both.* I am of the camp that does find the DAC makes a noticeable difference to how music sounds. I have owned only three modest DACS: Musical Fidelity VDAC for three years, Schiit Audio Modi (1) for about a year, and now the Schiit Audio Gungnir. Going between the first two DACs was more difficult to discern the differences, but they were present. But when I first heard the Gungnir, the difference between it and the Modi was extremely obvious. I suspect that the new Modi 2 Uber would be closer in sound signature to the Gungnir, however. 
 
Amps are also tricky, but the same criteria holds. I think it's best to figure out what your preferences are and read some reviews of amps and DACs to find which ones align with your preferences. Your decision should also depend on the headphone you are using, as high Z cans tend to excel with OTL amps, warm cans tend to sound overly warm with warm amps/dacs, and so on. 
 
What @mrscotchguy said above about headphones varying in their sensitivity to other gear is absolutely correct. One of the headphones most notorious for revealing the characteristics of an audio chain is the Sennheiser HD800, which takes great care and effort to sound right. Ostensibly from recent impressions of Canjam, the forthcoming Mr. Speakers Ether similarly excels at revealing the traits of the audio chain. Another headphone from my experience that shares this are the AKG K700 series. My AKG K7XX sounds absolutely awful on the O2 amp, for example, but it really matches perfectly with the Lyr--this is through the same DAC. 
 
I hope this helps you somewhat.
 
*There are obviously more scientific methods than this, but in the absence of those, this would be your best option. That is why 
 
@Stillhart and others brought portable gear to Canjam--to better isolate components in the chain. 

I like those suggestions! Thanks Liu!

 

[Joeybgood]

As a follow up question relating to amps, I was rather surprised when I read about(I believe it was a Cavalli amp) that required 24-48hrs to warm up enough for optimal performance. I know ALL amps  require warmup time, of course, so do most of you leave your amps powered up at all times? If not, is there reason/risk for not doing that?

 

[mrscotchguy]

As a follow up question relating to amps, I was rather surprised when I read about(I believe it was a Cavalli amp) that required 24-48hrs to warm up enough for optimal performance. I know ALL amps  require warmup time, of course, so do most of you leave your amps powered up at all times? If not, is there reason/risk for not doing that?

My PS Audio GCHA never truly turns off... it just goes into standy mode when you turn the volume off until it fully clicks. They recommend this as the caps stay full and other unicorn dust, fairy blood, and pixie magic.

I'm sure there is some benefits, but I cannot imagine any piece of equipment needing days to warm up. Maybe hours...

As for risks... that can start a never ending circle of back n' forth. There's two schools of thought on this topic. Each method has pros and cons. I personally prefer the less-heat for high power draw, so I leave it off when I can. If I'm stepping away for only a short while. I'll leave my gear on, otherwise, off it goes.

For low power gear, like most dacs... it's safe to leave it running 24/7. Totally your call.

 

[Liu Junyuan]

This topic has actually come up a lot recently and has perhaps most fully appeared on Purrin's wonderful thread on DACs. Many people claim that gear does need to time to warm up to sound its best while others feel that this is false. I do not want to get into the debate myself, but I do tend to leave my gear on, with the exception of my Lyr, since the latter's tube life is finite. 

 

[mrscotchguy]

  This topic has actually come up a lot recently and has perhaps most fully appeared on Purrin's wonderful thread on DACs. Many people claim that gear does need to time to warm up to sound its best while others feel that this is false. I do not want to get into the debate myself, but I do tend to leave my gear on, with the exception of my Lyr, since the latter's tube life is finite. 

I distinctly remember the Schiit Asgard (1st Gen) sounded mechanical until it warmed up for about 20-30 minutes.  Not sure what that was all about, but it was an interesting change.

 

[Liu Junyuan]

I distinctly remember the Schiit Asgard (1st Gen) sounded mechanical until it warmed up for about 20-30 minutes.  Not sure what that was all about, but it was an interesting change.

I believe it!

 

[ProtegeManiac]

  When a person auditions an amp, they, of course, have it paired with a DAC. How does one know that what they are hearing thru their cans is due to the amp vs the Dac? Speaking of that, what percentage of the sound that comes flowing into your headphones is due to the Dac vs the Amp in your opinion? as in, which makes the biggest difference? I ask because folks are giving the new Cavalli Liquid Carbon extremely rave reviews and I am in the market to upgrade my amp but am really in need of understanding how folks discern between the impact of the Dac(in the final sound output) and that of the amp. tks!

 

Try the amp with different DACs, also CDPs; TTs with different cartridges and phono preamps too if you're into analog. I once spent an entire afternoon comparing different CDPs with my Meier Cantate.2 and a loaner Burson Soloist on my HD600 (with a spare set of pads that I alternate after every CDP, just to minimize pad comrpession as a factor). Normally you'd expect that any fatigue would be worse off for the last, but the Rega Apollo (previous gen, the one that still looked like a wide PlayStation) was second to last I tried and it was the darkest of them all; after that was the Cambridge C351 which put the drums in front of the vocals for some reason. Arcam's CD72 came out as my favorite for neutrality and imaging but it just showed me how good the built-in USB DAC on the Cantate.2 is even with a cheap DAC chip (they were very similar; if anything, it's likely the better percussion on the Arcam was partly due to having the amp's voltage swing at its full capacity, instead of taking a hit when the DAC is running).

 

Also, the Burson was consistently fuller with some bass drum hits, but not enough for me to shell out that much money over what I paid for my used Cantate. For anyone looking to get an amp and don't own a good one yet, I would highly recommend it especially for AKGs (there was a wide gap in dynamics and PRAT on the K701/2 and Q701 over the Cantate, but note this is a bit above safe listening levels) and if you're getting harder to drive planars.

 

In any case there are certain thngs that you can hear and can more easily attribute to the amp instead of the DAC. If you're hearing over excursion (thwack! thwack! that goes with certain bass notes, like bass drums) or the sound is just plain weird going from one high impedance headphone to a low impedance headphone or vice versa, then the amp is having trouble driving the headphone or speaker (doesn't mean it's necessarily a bad amp, but more of a mismatch). 

 

Oh, and there was one time I tried out the NuForce Icon HDP when we got local stocks. I was getting over excursion on my HD600, but no such problem when we hooked it up to a Plinius power amp driving huge Polk speakers. When we used some Denon CDP they had lying around, the overexcursion was gone. My guess is the DAC was EQ-ing the sound, making it a problem for its headphone amp (at least on the HD600), but obviously not for the 300watt Plinius amplifier driving the Polk Audio towers.

 

[Joeybgood]

 

 

Try the amp with different DACs, also CDPs; TTs with different cartridges and phono preamps too if you're into analog. I once spent an entire afternoon comparing different CDPs with my Meier Cantate.2 and a loaner Burson Soloist on my HD600 (with a spare set of pads that I alternate after every CDP, just to minimize pad comrpession as a factor). Normally you'd expect that any fatigue would be worse off for the last, but the Rega Apollo (previous gen, the one that still looked like a wide PlayStation) was second to last I tried and it was the darkest of them all; after that was the Cambridge C351 which put the drums in front of the vocals for some reason. Arcam's CD72 came out as my favorite for neutrality and imaging but it just showed me how good the built-in USB DAC on the Cantate.2 is even with a cheap DAC chip (they were very similar; if anything, it's likely the better percussion on the Arcam was partly due to having the amp's voltage swing at its full capacity, instead of taking a hit when the DAC is running).

 

Also, the Burson was consistently fuller with some bass drum hits, but not enough for me to shell out that much money over what I paid for my used Cantate. For anyone looking to get an amp and don't own a good one yet, I would highly recommend it especially for AKGs (there was a wide gap in dynamics and PRAT on the K701/2 and Q701 over the Cantate, but note this is a bit above safe listening levels) and if you're getting harder to drive planars.

 

In any case there are certain thngs that you can hear and can more easily attribute to the amp instead of the DAC. If you're hearing over excursion (thwack! thwack! that goes with certain bass notes, like bass drums) or the sound is just plain weird going from one high impedance headphone to a low impedance headphone or vice versa, then the amp is having trouble driving the headphone or speaker (doesn't mean it's necessarily a bad amp, but more of a mismatch). 

 

Oh, and there was one time I tried out the NuForce Icon HDP when we got local stocks. I was getting over excursion on my HD600, but no such problem when we hooked it up to a Plinius power amp driving huge Polk speakers. When we used some Denon CDP they had lying around, the overexcursion was gone. My guess is the DAC was EQ-ing the sound, making it a problem for its headphone amp (at least on the HD600), but obviously not for the 300watt Plinius amplifier driving the Polk Audio towers.

Thank you much for this info and these suggestions PM! Much appreciated!