[MuppetFace]

Quote:

The L3000 is the only flagship headphone I owned that I felt was severely overrated.  It's a beautiful headphone held in your hands, and it has that amazing scent from the leather, but the sound quality it puts out is nowhere close to the price they command on the used market, and I formed this opinion when they were selling in the $2500 range used.  If they are really commanding close to $4k used now that leaves me just shaking me head in amazement and confusion.  They can't even begin to touch the LCD2, so other than their being a limited edition I don't see how they continue to maintain their value.
 
The R10 I can not comment on having never heard them, but I have owned the CD3000.  If the CD3000 sounds anything like the R10 then I would personally avoid them.

 
 
I'm a huge AT fan, having owned every wooden model and three different pairs of L3000s over the years. I wholeheartedly agree that the L3000 is overrated. For me, its coloration is extremely disagreeable, so much so in fact that I'd place it toward the bottom of legendary flagships personally. Interesting enough, it was one of my favorites when I was first starting out in summit-fi, and over the years it just grew more and more atrocious sonically to my ears. Though I also agree that it's a true piece of art, and holding it in one's hands is a joy unto itself. The use of leather on the cups is a brilliant and unique decision.
 
Regarding the R10, it is sonically a very different beast from the CD3000 overall, though their DNA is similar in certain respects. Sonically the R10 is a truly magnificent headphone and is definitely more deserving of its legendary status IMO, though it's still overhyped. The problem with the R10 is that it's simply too much of a gamble for all but the most serious collectors, as age hasn't been too kind to some sets and Sony no longer offers support or even spare parts (you'll find them on ebay from time to time, but at ridiculous prices).
 
Rant warning:
 
I can wholly understand why the L3000 keeps its value. It's limited to 500 units worldwide and has garnered quite a reputation. Such is summit-fi. A lot of the market is "manufactured" by people less interested in headphones and more concerned with turning a profit, so they hype headphones to kingdom come, fostering this image of the "legends" of yesteryear. Since head-fi is a growing hobby, a lot of people are entering into the world of summit-fi for the first time, and they're confronted with a dazzling array of flagships that are no longer readily available, flagships that possess a certain allure and mystique that goes along with the past. In and of itself there's nothing wrong with that, unfortunately these individuals will often pay the ridiculous prices that flippers ask for, being told that the headphones are N.O.S. or otherwise like-new, that it's a more desirable "early model" or "late model" or "bass light" or "bass heavy" or whathaveyou. Basically one of a number of false justifications for their price which just happens to be more than other ads.
 
Coupled with the practice of people not retaining the prices on their old ads, and you get a situation where desire outweighs sense, and the truly unfortunate outcome is that it thus establishes a precedent: now the seller (or another seller) will point to that sale and demand a similarly high price for the next one. Flash forward to a year later, and you get "well that was the price a year ago, but now it's naturally higher!" Why is it naturally higher? People just take for granted that these prices are going to go up every year. When it comes to headphones with extremely low numbers, you also sometimes get individuals who buy up a whole bunch of them and literally drive the market up on their own. It happened (and is still happening on Ebay to this day) with the Sennheiser Orpheus, and some folks tried it with the L3000 a few years back.
 
/Rant

 

[Xymordos]

A lot of Japanese manufacturers tune their equipment to pop music or modern music, which is what I enjoy. The European ones mainly tune their sound to classical, and I don't listen to those nearly as often as vocal based music. For me, any headphone with vocals not at the front would put me off unless they do the other stuff really good.

 

[Radio_head]

One of my biggest pet peeves in summit fi.  I would add that due to their mystique and "legendary" status people are less likely to be objective about them even outside of consciously or unconsciously inflating their resale value - I know I prefer two or three current dynamic flagships to the R10, but saying so would be sacrilegious to many. 
 
This is a hallmark of collectorism over the utility of the hobby - when users are in it solely for the sound, the headphone (should) retain a value commensurate with it's sonic abilities at that time relative to everything else out there.  When it becomes about collecting, then things like nostalgia, scarcity, material choice, brand, and other collector-centric considerations come into play that inflate value far beyond what music-centric users would ever pay.  
 
I'm not saying this is at all an invalid reason to be in the hobby - it's just a surefire way for things to get out of hand on the OOP market.

 

[purk]

Quote:

 
 
I'm a huge AT fan, having owned every wooden model and three different pairs of L3000s over the years. I wholeheartedly agree that the L3000 is overrated. For me, its coloration is extremely disagreeable, so much so in fact that I'd place it toward the bottom of legendary flagships personally. Interesting enough, it was one of my favorites when I was first starting out in summit-fi, and over the years it just grew more and more atrocious sonically to my ears. Though I also agree that it's a true piece of art, and holding it in one's hands is a joy unto itself. The use of leather on the cups is a brilliant and unique decision.
 
Regarding the R10, it is sonically a very different beast from the CD3000 overall, though their DNA is similar in certain respects. Sonically the R10 is a truly magnificent headphone and is definitely more deserving of its legendary status IMO, though it's still overhyped. The problem with the R10 is that it's simply too much of a gamble for all but the most serious collectors, as age hasn't been too kind to some sets and Sony no longer offers support or even spare parts (you'll find them on ebay from time to time, but at ridiculous prices).
 
 

Even more surprising is that the price of the L3000 in yahoo auction japan is now hovering above 270,000 yen.  That is high.  The L3000 is really a genre specific headphones and pretty much excel with jazz, pop, rocks, heavy metals, and small scale energetic music.  If you feed it a large scale and complex recording, the L3000 won't sound that good due to its closed , upfront nature, and colorization.  Still many continue to love them because of their musicality and extreme forgiving nature with respected to the aforementioned genres.  If you think the L3000 is overpriced then the PS1 must be even worst.  I always feel that the L3000 and PS-1 are very similar with PS-1 has less refinement overall.  The PS1 continues to command around 3k in the used market.  Several NOS pairs from John Grado went for around 4k couple years ago though.  
 
I continue to love my R10 and think the world of them.  With the new acquisition of my amp, they are now my go-to-phone and now compete head on with my Orpheus system.  Speaking of spare parts, one can get creative and make their own parts especially those polyurethane rings.  I know a few people who has done just that including myself.  Of course, if have you a busted driver...then you are out of luck.

 

[MuppetFace]

Quote:

A lot of Japanese manufacturers tune their equipment to pop music or modern music, which is what I enjoy. The European ones mainly tune their sound to classical, and I don't listen to those nearly as often as vocal based music. For me, any headphone with vocals not at the front would put me off unless they do the other stuff really good.

 
 
The R10, a Japanese headphone, is one of the best headphones for classical music ever made IMHO, second only to the mighty Orpheus (and actually even ahead when it comes to reproduction of strings).
 
That being said, I know what you mean. That's why I bothered mentioning my past experience with AT: I'm very much used to their controversial coloration, and I actually enjoy it in a lot of cases. The W10VTG, W11R, and W3000ANV in particular render vocals gorgeously to my ears. The L3000 on the other hand just sounds atrocious to me, even as someone who enjoys AT's notorious mid-centric coloration.

 

[Xymordos]

Interesting...Though everyone says buying AT phones are a gamble, because each of their phones sound so different each time
Especially the limited ones, where there are no demos to try...

 

[MuppetFace]

Quote:

Interesting...Though everyone says buying AT phones are a gamble, because each of their phones sound so different each time
Especially the limited ones, where there are no demos to try...

 
 
The weird thing is, I actually really liked the L3000 for the first year I owned it, and over time gradually started disliking it more and more. That's why I originally sold my first pair. Then I was curious about it again and purchased a second pair. I would have kept that pair, but it had a balanced recabling, and I came across one that was basically NOS, so I bought that and sold the balanced one.
 
There's just something about its tonality I find... harsher than the other ATs. It's something difficult for me to articulate, as I can't quite put my finger on the exact reason for my distaste, even with the measurements for them in front of me. I think Skylab felt the same way (maybe he can better explain why he dislikes them--- especially as I know he really likes the W3000ANV as I do).
 
As ridiculous as the current prices for the L3000 are, they're nothing compared to the L3000G. I've heard stories of their changing hands in Hong Kong for everything from $12,000 to $20,000 to more. Thought TBH I'm a little skeptical about those higher numbers.

 

[Xymordos]

For me, I like the ATs because they make my Jpop vocals extremely smooth and ear-grabbing. Makes you want to listen to their sensual voices xD 
I would never call my current ones harsh. If they're harsh on a AT phone then I definitely wouldn't like them

 

[rgs9200m]

Quote:

A lot of Japanese manufacturers tune their equipment to pop music or modern music, which is what I enjoy. The European ones mainly tune their sound to classical, and I don't listen to those nearly as often as vocal based music. For me, any headphone with vocals not at the front would put me off unless they do the other stuff really good.

Vocals? You like vocals? If you don't have them already, get W3000ANVs, run them in for about a day, and let the music sink in.
Even many megabuck speakers don't have vocals like this. I heard Dynaudio Evidences and Von Schweikert VR9s at shows and the vocals of the W3000s reminded me of those.

 

[Xymordos]

I have the W3000 and W5000, but I know a lot of people said the earlier models have better vocals. W1000, W100, W2002 especially. I really want to try one of them :\ The prices aren't very good though.

 

[MuppetFace]

The W11R has the best vocals IMHO, followed by the W3000ANV.

 

[Xymordos]

I saw W11R on auction for 1500 USD :\ 
I felt that vocals sounded not as good on the W3000anv compared to the W5000, which is why I kept the W5000. 
Its just that I heard from other ATH collectors that W2002 and W1000 had excellent vocals. 

 

[MuppetFace]

Quote:

I saw W11R on auction for 1500 USD :\ 
I felt that vocals sounded not as good on the W3000anv compared to the W5000, which is why I kept the W5000. 
Its just that I heard from other ATH collectors that W2002 and W1000 had excellent vocals. 

 
 
To my ears the W3000ANV and W5000 are more alike than dissimilar, the biggest difference being the airer presentation of the W5000 and its somewhat more treble tilted FR. The mids of the W5000 are also a tad bit more colored to me in that stereotypical AT way, ie. that slight nasal timbrel quality. The midrange is perhaps the most consistent aspect across the board IMHO, and most of the variation between models is going to occur in the extremities and overall presentation. Which doesn't surprise me too much seeing as the drivers are very similar (if not the same) from one to the next, and a good deal of the difference comes from different damping / driver doping schemes, cup shapes, and tuning I believe.
 
To that end, I don't think the vocals on the W1000 are that much different compared to the W5000. Honestly, going from the W100 --> W1000 --> W5000 (I personally feel the W5000 is the "true" successor to their non-limited model line, with the W1000X being an anomaly of sorts) it's really more a matter of increased refinement / balance in FR and consistency, along with fancier build quality. The "Limited" models tend to be the most neutral in overall balance: ie. the W10LTD and W11R, with the latter possessing more mid range coloration and the former being the most neutral of all the woodies. The "Japan" models like the W2002 and W3000ANV are also more alike than dissimilar.

 

[Xymordos]

I feel that there is a coloring in W5k that's more suitable to Jpop compared W3k. The mids are more forward which makes vocals sound more touching in some songs. Though this coloring is still slight compared to ATH standards. I want to try their more heavily colored mids models. I'm surprised that you felt that the vocals are not that much different on the older models? I read in many places that they're extremely seductive, while W5000 vocals are spiritual. Which ATH headphone do you think sounds the smoothest in the vocals?
 
I also see reviews which completely rates W1k as trash, because it seems to lack everything except for mids? Though I'm glad you think the W5k and W3k are models worth having
 
On another note, W3k and W2k2 are very similar?! Can you tell me more about this?

 

[MuppetFace]

Quote:

I feel that there is a coloring in W5k that's more suitable to Jpop compared W3k. The mids are more forward which makes vocals sound more touching in some songs. Though this coloring is still slight compared to ATH standards. I want to try their more heavily colored mids models. I'm surprised that you felt that the vocals are not that much different on the older models? I read in many places that they're extremely seductive, while W5000 vocals are spiritual. Which ATH headphone do you think sounds the smoothest in the vocals?
 
I also see reviews which completely rates W1k as trash, because it seems to lack everything except for mids? Though I'm glad you think the W5k and W3k are models worth having
 
On another note, W3k and W2k2 are very similar?! Can you tell me more about this?

 
Well, therein lies the difficulty of using language to describe sound. I'm not even sure what the difference between "seductive" and "spiritual" would be. : P
 
As I said the W5000 is airier sounding to my ears relative to the W3000ANV, so perhaps that's what others mean by "spiritual." The W3000ANV by comparison has a weightier presentation, slightly more grounded. It strikes me as Audio-Technica's attempt to produce their most balanced headphone yet, not balanced in terms of neutral FR, but rather drawing on the strengths of their past models. Sort of a "greatest hits" entry for their anniversary. This is even reflected in its aesthetic, which draws bits and pieces from past models (parts of older arc assemblies and newer ones, plastic color, wood finish, etc).
 
I think the majority of Audio-Technica's headphones are more similar than dissimilar in their general tonal balance: tight and textured bass, bright upper end, and emphasized mids with a distinct timbrel coloration. Their drivers are all very similar, if not the same driver in some cases. There are some odd balls in the lineup however, and tuning the enclosures makes for all the difference. For instance the W10LTD which is the most linear of the bunch, the W11JPN which has a more plentiful but muddy bass, and the W1000X which does "bassy" better but borks the midrange somewhat unfortunately.
 
The W5000 is actually one of the more overtly colored in terms of the midrange IMHO. I sort of hear it as the natural evolution of their non-limited lineup: W10VTG --> W100 --> W1000 --> W5000. All of these models are going to have a very strong, distinct midrange that is characteristic of AT's woodie lineup. All of these have a pretty strong midrange focus, and when people say there's an AT house sound, these are the models they're likely referencing (which makes sense as they're the ones most people have heard). The W10VTG is perhaps the most "romantic" of the bunch. The W100 is a definite step backward, though there have been reports of two different versions of the driver, with one being inferior to the other. The W1000 basically takes the same formula and improves upon it. The W5000 takes it a step further by adding a "hi-fi" ambience, tilting the treble upward even more (people tend to hear details more in brighter headphones, which is why companies often tune for brightness) and giving it an airier more sparkly quality.
 
The "Limited" models are my personal favorites of the bunch, and they tend to be tuned more for balance. The W10LTD is really versatile, but it lacks a bit of that magic that makes AT headphones special to begin with, so it tends to get overlooked a lot (though that also has to do with the fact that it's one of the rarest of the bunch). The W11R on the other hand takes that balanced presentation and adds the beautiful midrange back into the equation, and overall I find it to be the most seductive listen. It's got just a bit of added warmth compared to the W3000ANV.
 
The "Japan" models are those that Audio-Technica releases to mark special occasions, and they tend to be the most varied but consistently of high quality. It's almost like Audio-Technica uses each of their JPN models to make a statement, taking their past efforts and extracting a reified core of values from them.
 
I'm not trying to underrate the differences from one model to the other, but merely asserting that they're not drastically different, at least to my ears. That hasn't stopped me from collecting all of them, mind you. For me however they're more like variations on the same theme.