[shagrathborgir]

yamaha is almost 2m away from pc.I've tried that...optical from creative to yamaha,and rca from pc to yamaha!the optical with dts sound is way better than rca,which sounds not so rich in detail and not so powerful..lack of bass also!
I'm not interested in how headphones will sound,I don't listen to music at headphones in my house!

 

[shagrathborgir]

   
When you use S/PDIF(optical or coaxial) output from the Titanium-HD, your bypassing the DAC and op-amps built into the Titanium-HD.
So you not really taking advantages of the Titanium-HD's audio features using S/PDIF.

YES,I know...but using the rca cable I don't get such a great audio quality...this is strange!
optical is dts,rca is pcm....and dts sounds better,louder,more details,more bass...
I'll test is again tomorrow,but still there is a big difference between these two!

 

[PurpleAngel]

  Yamaha is almost 2m away from PC.I've tried that...optical from creative to Yamaha,and RCA from PC to Yamaha !the optical with DTS sound is way better than RCA,which sounds not so rich in detail and not so powerful..lack of bass also!
I'm not interested in how headphones will sound,I don't listen to music at headphones in my house!

 
It seems like the optical connection is working fine for you.
Have you tried removing the Titanium-HD from the computer and run optical from the motherboard to the Yamaha, see if it sounds the same (just as good)?
For music, I like to use Foobar2000 (with WASAPI) on the PC and I also run optical from my PC.

 

[shagrathborgir]

   
It seems like the optical connection is working fine for you.
Have you tried removing the Titanium-HD from the computer and run optical from the motherboard to the Yamaha, see if it sounds the same (just as good)?
For music, I like to use Foobar2000 (with WASAPI) on the PC and I also run optical from my PC.

no,it's not the same sound from the motherboard.U use power dvd for listening to music!

 

[PurpleAngel]

  YES,I know...but using the rca cable I don't get such a great audio quality...this is strange!
optical is DTS, RCA is PCM....and DTS sounds better,louder,more details,more bass...
I'll test is again tomorrow,but still there is a big difference between these two!

 
Both the optical cable and the RCA cable should be passing two channels of PCM (un-compressed) audio.
Two-channels is all that is need for music
The only use for DTS with optical is DTS-Connect, which can compress up to 6-channels of digital audio, for passing thru S/PDIF (optical/coaxial).
I can see 6-channels of DTS audio, from a Blu-ray disc being able to pass thru S/PDIF
So I'm try to under stand how DTS is effecting the music audio quality?

 

[obobskivich]

Both the optical cable and the RCA cable should be passing two channels of PCM (un-compressed) audio.
Two-channels is all that is need for music
The only use for DTS with optical is DTS-Connect, which can compress up to 6-channels of digital audio, for passing thru S/PDIF (optical/coaxial).
I can see 6-channels of DTS audio, from a Blu-ray disc being able to pass thru S/PDIF
So I'm try to under stand how DTS is effecting the music audio quality?

+1. The analog outputs are just the result of the soundcard converting that 2ch PCM to analog; it can pass that ("pre-DAC") out via the optical connection as well. Same signal. DTS is a lossy 5.1 codec used for DVD and other movie formats (its the "core" for DTS-HD on Blu-ray; a lot of HD-DVDs use DTS, etc), as well as the output for DTS: Interactive's real-time 5.1 encoding.

It may be, however, that the Yamaha is applying some additional processing to the DTS input vs the stereo analog input, and that's what you're hearing. AVRs are relatively complex devices, and not often the most intuitive. For example if your system has two speakers and a subwoofer, running stereo analog in may not be engaging that subwoofer, whereas DTS: Interactive mixing things into 5.1 will synthesize an LFE channel that will direct bass to the subwoofer. That would be a very noticeable difference. However there's probably some decoder option on the Yamaha to take 2ch analog and provide output to the subwoofer as well.

 

[AliveNoMore]

Just for the record, I tried disabling the Realtek card in UEFI and measured the SBZ again. No change. Still get the mediocre results. I doubt it's the driver. If I get the chance I will try and measure it on another PC but at the moment this isn't possible.
 
I remain open to suggestions.

 

[shagrathborgir]

ok,I'm back,done some tests!so my sound card is crative titanium hd and yamaha receiver a730.in all tests,I got sound in all 7 speakers!
 
using flac files on my pc:
 
creative xfi titanium hd - optical cable and dts encoder selected from creative console - yamaha receiver display DTS as decoder
in yamaha menu I got this:
format: DTS
channel: 5.1 (3/2/0.1)
sampling: 48kHz
bitrate: 1536kbps
dualogue: 0db
 
 
creative xfi titanium hd - optical cable and encoder off selected from creative console - yamaha receiver displays PCM as decoder
in yamaha menu I got this:
format: PCM
channel: 2.0
sampling: 96kHz
bitrate:---
dualogue:---
 
 
creative titanium hd - rca cble (red and white) encoder off from creative console - yamaha receiver displays ANALOG
in yamaha menu I got this:
format: Analog
channel: 2.0
sampling: ---
bitrate: ---
dualogue: ---
 
I turned off the subwoofer for the test!
 
NOW,the PCM sound's a little bit worse than ANALOG,with almost no bass,no punch at all and the sound is sharp in both PCM and ANALOG,and it seems not so detailed.highs are to present,even the eq is turned off.ANALOG has more punch than PCM,but DTS sounds better than both...it is louder,punchier,almost no need for subwoofer but also more detailed..there is a sound which is almost not present with either PCM or ANALOG!
In short...PCM and ANALOG almost sounds as my motherboard audio out,10 years ago...with such low volume
With DTS I keep my yamaha at -30 and for PCM and ANALOG I have to go to -24 and thhen there's so much highs in sound and lack of bass and details!
 
So,is this strange???
I really thought that PCM should sound better!
 
My questions:
1.Why is sampling rate higher with PCM than with DTS
2.If using optical out bypass the dac's sound card,that means it bypass with both DTS and PCM,and only ANALOG uses creative dacs?
3.Can someone explain please,what actually happens with the flac file in all 3 ways?when and how it is converted and what does the yamaha amp really do in every case?
4.Is there a reason to replace the creative titanium hd card with another pc card,is there something better ou there?

 

[PurpleAngel]

  ok,I'm back,done some tests!so my sound card is crative titanium hd and yamaha receiver a730.in all tests,I got sound in all 7 speakers!
using flac files on my pc:
creative xfi titanium hd - optical cable and dts encoder selected from creative console - yamaha receiver display DTS as decoder
creative xfi titanium hd - optical cable and encoder off selected from creative console - yamaha receiver displays PCM as decoder
creative titanium hd - rca cble (red and white) encoder off from creative console - yamaha receiver displays ANALOG
I turned off the subwoofer for the test! NOW,the PCM sound's a little bit worse than ANALOG,with almost no bass,no punch at all and the sound is sharp in both PCM and ANALOG,and it seems not so detailed.highs are to present,even the eq is turned off.ANALOG has more punch than PCM,but DTS sounds better than both...it is louder,punchier,almost no need for subwoofer but also more detailed..there is a sound which is almost not present with either PCM or ANALOG!
In short...PCM and ANALOG almost sounds as my motherboard audio out,10 years ago...with such low volume
With DTS I keep my yamaha at -30 and for PCM and ANALOG I have to go to -24 and thhen there's so much highs in sound and lack of bass and details!
So,is this strange???
I really thought that PCM should sound better!
My questions:
1.Why is sampling rate higher with PCM than with DTS
2.If using optical out bypass the dac's sound card,that means it bypass with both DTS and PCM,and only ANALOG uses creative dacs?
3.Can someone explain please,what actually happens with the flac file in all 3 ways?when and how it is converted and what does the yamaha amp really do in every case?
4.Is there a reason to replace the creative titanium hd card with another pc card,is there something better ou there?

 
I'm guess the difference might have to do with the program you are using to play your audio, PowerDVD.
Try the free program Foobar2000.

 

[lost&confused]

does anyone notice a difference with  sound quality using windows 10 ...coming from windows 7
 
I'm using a creative zxr soundcard with analogue outs to  amplifier and also using the sound cards built in amp
 
with windows 10 it has a much lighter bass and a kinda U shape sound to it  

    I have to use much more volume with windows 10  as well to get the same sound as I did with  windows 7  
 
so I'm now back to windows 7 now and happy , I think windows 10 maybe had a better sound quality to it but I'm used to the windows 7 sound 
 
I used the newest creative windows 10 driver r and the one from Microsoft updates both the same sound,
 
the mid-range is also much better with windows 7 
 
or yeah ? I  have golden ears 

  
 
forgot to say
I also used windows 7 drivers with windows 10 but still the same rubbish sound,  the windows 7 drivers worked fine with windows 10  for me

 

[obobskivich]

So,is this strange???
I really thought that PCM should sound better!

My questions:
1.Why is sampling rate higher with PCM than with DTS
2.If using optical out bypass the dac's sound card,that means it bypass with both DTS and PCM,and only ANALOG uses creative dacs?
3.Can someone explain please,what actually happens with the flac file in all 3 ways?when and how it is converted and what does the yamaha amp really do in every case?
4.Is there a reason to replace the creative titanium hd card with another pc card,is there something better ou there?

No its actually starting to make sense.

1) Because DTS is fixed at 48khz; PCM can be higher or lower. You probably have it set higher on your PC.
2) Yes.
3) With PCM or analog output (same thing, fundamentally - only difference is you're either having the X-Fi's DAC or the Yamaha's DAC do the final D/A) you're getting the flac decoded and output as a PCM bitstream. With the DTS output you're running that signal through the DTS encoder which is applying DTS' proprietary (as in not extremely well documented) noise shaping, EQing, including HF filtering (they knock off HF content over around 16k), compression, etc as a means of optimizing what can be done with the available bitpool (remember: they want to stick 6 discrete channels into the same bandwidth that CDDA uses for two). The Yamaha is then decoding this and playing it back. The differences in sound are likely due to the DTS encoder on the PC imposing the aforesaid features - it would explain the volume differences, the reduction in HF, the "increased detail" (compression -> lower level sounds become louder -> you hear them better), and so on.
4) Not really, unless it is malfunctioning/not working anymore.

 

[shagrathborgir]

No its actually starting to make sense.

1) Because DTS is fixed at 48khz; PCM can be higher or lower. You probably have it set higher on your PC.
2) Yes.
3) With PCM or analog output (same thing, fundamentally - only difference is you're either having the X-Fi's DAC or the Yamaha's DAC do the final D/A) you're getting the flac decoded and output as a PCM bitstream. With the DTS output you're running that signal through the DTS encoder which is applying DTS' proprietary (as in not extremely well documented) noise shaping, EQing, including HF filtering (they knock off HF content over around 16k), compression, etc as a means of optimizing what can be done with the available bitpool (remember: they want to stick 6 discrete channels into the same bandwidth that CDDA uses for two). The Yamaha is then decoding this and playing it back. The differences in sound are likely due to the DTS encoder on the PC imposing the aforesaid features - it would explain the volume differences, the reduction in HF, the "increased detail" (compression -> lower level sounds become louder -> you hear them better), and so on.
4) Not really, unless it is malfunctioning/not working anymore.

And which is the "write" way to do it?I'm tempted to opt for the yamaha do be the final piece to make the conversion...I'm really lost here with the answer on nr 3!
When I use the creative dac,do I bypass the yamaha?

 

[obobskivich]

I'm assuming you mean "the 'right' way" - there isn't a single answer to that. All of your approaches are fine. Using the Creative DAC doesn't bypass the Yamaha because the Yamaha is still in the chain and must digitize inputs for its internal DSP to be of use. This is all done transparently ofc.

 

[shagrathborgir]

I'm assuming you mean "the 'right' way" - there isn't a single answer to that. All of your approaches are fine. Using the Creative DAC doesn't bypass the Yamaha because the Yamaha is still in the chain and must digitize inputs for its internal DSP to be of use. This is all done transparently ofc.

so,there isn't a right way to do this...the yamaha is not bypassed,but if I don't want to bypass the creative dac,I have only one option,and that is Analog.so nothing digital,dts or pcm,takes benefit of the creative sound card.still,the analog signal,coming from the creative card is not ok,really.I would not pay money for any kind of card,that delivers this kind of audio...is really bad.are you saying that from 10 sound cards with optical out,I'll get the same sound as with creative titanium hd???no point in getting the zxr if I'm using the optical...or will zxr sound better using it's dac's??
or,is a 3-400 euro dac better way than a sound card??I see there are dac's with optical and analog also.
I always thought that pcm will use the internal dac...I'm really lost!
Another thing,it music is digital,why convert it to analog by a 200 euro sound card,and send the signal to yamaha (whici has far more better components) to do another job,when yahama can be the end of the line!still,that's they my point..I thought that PCM will be the better choice...since is digital,and only 2 ch like all recordings.
if I get it right,in dts mode,from 2 ch audio...I send 5.1 to yamaha,then the yamaha makes 7.1...do I loose something on the way??so much money,and so many things,and I don't feel this is right,as I want pure music,just like it was recorded,with no loss of details!thank you for youre time

 

[obobskivich]

so,there isn't a right way to do this...the yamaha is not bypassed,but if I don't want to bypass the creative dac,I have only one option,and that is Analog.so nothing digital,dts or pcm,takes benefit of the creative sound card.still,the analog signal,coming from the creative card is not ok,really.I would not pay money for any kind of card,that delivers this kind of audio...is really bad.are you saying that from 10 sound cards with optical out,I'll get the same sound as with creative titanium hd???no point in getting the zxr if I'm using the optical...or will zxr sound better using it's dac's??
or,is a 3-400 euro dac better way than a sound card??I see there are dac's with optical and analog also.
I always thought that pcm will use the internal dac...I'm really lost!
Another thing,it music is digital,why convert it to analog by a 200 euro sound card,and send the signal to yamaha (whici has far more better components) to do another job,when yahama can be the end of the line!still,that's they my point..I thought that PCM will be the better choice...since is digital,and only 2 ch like all recordings.
if I get it right,in dts mode,from 2 ch audio...I send 5.1 to yamaha,then the yamaha makes 7.1...do I loose something on the way??so much money,and so many things,and I don't feel this is right,as I want pure music,just like it was recorded,with no loss of details!thank you for youre time

No offense but this is insanely hard to read. Please use proper spacing with punctuation and don't rely so heavily on ellipses.

My response to what I can divine you to be potentially saying:

- No, there is no right or wrong way to do this in any sort of objective manner. There are many ways to connect these two components together.

- The Yamaha cannot be fully bypassed unless you remove it from the equation - it will always have signal going into it, and coming back out of it. It cannot behave as a purely analog in-out device, because of the DSP functionality. You would need something much more basic to achieve that.

- Using the analog outputs of the Creative card uses the Creative card's DAC. Using the digital outputs of the Creative card does not use the Creative card's DAC. The Creative card is still acting as a source device and audio interface when outputting via digital, so it's not reasonable to say it has "no benefit" - it's the only reason you're getting a DTS encoded output, for example.

- The signal has to be converted to analog *somewhere* - where it's done is really dependent on the gear involved and what you're after. I wouldn't be so quick to jump on the "this costs more its always better no matter what because it costs more" bandwagon though - high end sound cards (like the Creative) have top-shelf DACs and output sections, and I would be surprised if it isn't using comparable or better components than the Yamaha. That said, differences between DACs tend to be extremely subtle (if even discernible in normal listening), so I wouldn't get too wrapped up in that either.

- Running the DTS: Interactive package to convert stereo music to a 5.1 output, and then relying on the Yamaha's DSP to mix that up to 7.1 is certainly not likely to win anyone's favor as being "untouched" or "unadulterated" - a lot of processing is going on for that signal to be output on a 7.1 speaker system. That doesn't mean you can't like how it sounds, but it's certainly not native reproduction by any means. You shouldn't lose anything with either approach though - you're inputting the same signal, and just changing how it is being output at runtime.