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Quote:

Originally posted by tom hankins I don't disagree with your point about using the 963 as a cdp only. I just can see why alot of people would consider it a bargain for 360.00. As far as cdp's in the 3-4 hundred dollar range.(I no I'm going catch hell for this) Some sound almost O.K. and IMO none sound very good. I'm talking new prices here, not deals on used stuff.

I'd say there are some quite good sounding CDP in this range. This is a very competitive range and great value products can be picket up there. Just look at NAD C541i, Marantz CD6000OSE (LE) Cambridge Audio D500SE and Rotel RD02. All of the above sound much better than the 963 and some sound better than players in the class above.
Anyway I guesss we are well off topic here

 

[Duncan]

Quote:

Originally posted by markl Problem is, DAC technology has accelerated by leaps and bounds over the last 5 years or so. Today's $400 model can rival yesterday's $4000 uber-CDP. IMO, FWIW, older CDPs *in general* are not necessarily a good buy, YMMV. Mark

Yes... YMMV...

I'm slightly disappointed that on extended listening, the Sony XE570 CD Player I have has more detail than the somewhat mushy 8-9 year old Marantz CD63SE I have...

...When I first heard the Sony... I'd been pretty much exclusively listening to the Marantz, so the sound was overkill on the Sony... but now i've gotten used to it....

...Sure, its no Wadia... but its not bad for what it is

 

[Tuberoller]

When I meet all the audio guys at Decibel Audio tomorrow night for our weekly(maybe bi-weekly) listening session,I'll have to listen to these two older guys argue this point back and forth whenever the music stops.I swear,I'm gonna kill them both if they keep it up.

I'm sure all you guys know my position.There is just too much happening in digital right now.The changes are coming rapid-fire and are damn near impossible to keep up with.Not all those changes have been good but most of them are definite improvements.Do you really believe that a five year old CDP,even the super high-end stuff,is still at or near the top in performance? It may sound great and satisfy you to no end but there is likely a better sounding,much less expensive player currently available.

I have heard a bunch of really expensive CDPs that just floored me and I hurriedly made plans to sucure the funds to purchase that player only to hear something better and cheaper in the near future.I learned my lesson.I have recently auditioned four of the newer "Universal" players and have to say that five years ago any of them would have been a revelation to anyone with a decent pair of ears and the knowledge to know what they are listening to.I have been auditioning the new Musical Fidelity Trivista SACD player and I am wholely impressed by it.It is fantastic in every way and I dread having to return it in a few days.I also dread thinking about it's $6,400 asking price.Is it the best I have heard? Nope,but it's close.Good thing I gave it a second chance,cause I hated it at every audio show I heard it.The gap between this player and the lower cost,high performance players I have heard is nowhere near what the price differences would indicate.I won't even bother to offer the "point of diminishing returns" argument again,it should be obvious.The folks who are clinging to the idea that there is any "best" digital player or that cost is any indicator of performance in this digital market are the same ones who think that the Linn LP12 is the best turntable ever built.Time has passed them by and they didn't even feel the breeze.Spend your hard earned cash on a digital rig at your own risk.

Edit:
those same Euro rags that bash the Philips 963 are the ones that called the Marantz 8300 an"outstanding performance bargain".That's just funny,so funny that Marantz quickly killed the DV8300 which suffered almost universally poor stateside reviews for the DV8400.Thats' why I don't trust any of the Euro audio mags.These guys think Rega turntables are the best in the world.( I wonder why).That's even funnier

 

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Quote:

Originally posted by Tuberoller Edit: those same Euro rags that bash the Philips 963 are the ones that called the Marantz 8300 an"outstanding performance bargain".That's just funny,so funny that Marantz quickly killed the DV8300 which suffered almost universally poor stateside reviews for the DV8400.Thats' why I don't trust any of the Euro audio mags.These guys think Rega turntables are the best in the world.( I wonder why).That's even funnier

Yeah, you should never trust anything said or written by an European and never ever buy anything made in Europe or do any bussiness whatsoever with Europeans. It's all bad, especially European HiFi, it sucks. Asian made electronics are the best money can buy and Grado RA1 is the best value in audio ever.

 

[Solude]

In my experience, bleeding edge CD technology in the consumer market rivals the classics and is often more neutral offering less of a house sound than the big names.

What I found back in the day was that high price tag CD players and DACs were not more transparent, neutral and detailed but simply a more pronounced company sound. The Classe CDP.5, Aragon D2A, Adcom GDA-700, Marantz CD-65SE, Anthem CD1 all good players and DACs but all very coloured. Luckily the Aragon house sound is neutral and transparent if not a little dry. The Adcom also somewhat neutral with a slight dark presentation. The others were clearly not true to the source.

Anyway all that to say that I have access to these and my source is the M-Audio Revo

A ~$100US soundcard playing lossless WMA. So would I go out and blow a $1000+ on a Sony XA7ES or Meridian 508.24? Not in this lifetime. I may be interested in some higher end bleeding edge like the 47 Labs or Bel Canto DAC2 but nothing that's a rehash of old design.

 

[arnaud]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tuberoller Edit: those same Euro rags that bash the Philips 963 are the ones that called the Marantz 8300 an"outstanding performance bargain".That's just funny,so funny that Marantz quickly killed the DV8300 which suffered almost universally poor stateside reviews for the DV8400.Thats' why I don't trust any of the Euro audio mags.These guys think Rega turntables are the best in the world.( I wonder why).That's even funnier

Hi Tuberoller,

I see that you have a lot of respect for the "old" continent! But, I'll agree with you on 1 point: not to trust Euro audio mags any more than US ones... When talking about oversea stuff, I point out to forums, where gentle and delicate people bash each other just as gently and with just as much moderation as here ;o). They're probably more tolerant though, when compared to your attitude now!!

Arnaud.

 

[DanG]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tuberoller Do you really believe that a five year old CDP,even the super high-end stuff,is still at or near the top in performance? It may sound great and satisfy you to no end but there is likely a better sounding,much less expensive player currently available.

No, not necessarily. But that's not the issue I see being discussed -- of course, at a certain price range, comparing the old retail prices to new units' retail prices is ridiculous. But look at the Meridian 506, for example, which retailed for $2000 when in production and now goes for $600-700 used. What new product could you buy that rivals it? I'm talking about redbook here. That's the real issue... some have been saying that the old stuff isn't even worth buying at all nowadays. But to tell the truth, they're still a better deal than any new gear just because so many people with money to spend are selling off their old stuff to try the new gear and see if it is the real deal -- or maybe just because they don't like having the same box on the shelf for more than a few years.

The real question would be if the Linn CD12 can match new players that retail for around $10,000 or less. Has anyone compared? This would be a good example of an older product that still has a high resale value (approx.) despite new additions to the field with newer technology.

 

[Tuberoller]

Quote:

Originally posted by arnaud Hi Tuberoller, I see that you have a lot of respect for the "old" continent! But, I'll agree with you on 1 point: not to trust Euro audio mags any more than US ones... When talking about oversea stuff, I point out to forums, where gentle and delicate people bash each other just as gently and with just as much moderation as here ;o). They're probably more tolerant though, when compared to your attitude now!! Arnaud.

I'm sorry If that came across as an insult to anyone.I didn't mean it that way.I think the Euro mags tend to favor more Euro gear and there is certainly a "Euro Sound" that is the strong preference of some listeners.In our "audio club" (informal at best) we have three Brits and they all like different sounds.It's wrong for me to generalize but I feel the Euro mags tend to be all the same.The same tendacies exist amongst the US mags as well(except for Listener mag,now gone) and preferences seem to follow a pattern.No offense Intended.

 

[Andrew Pielet]

Tube,
What you got against the LP12? Besides " If you can set it up correctly"? I wanted to talk to you about this, cause I could care less about setup, that is the fun part.

 

[Duncan]

Thats funny tuberoller

...I'm a Brit that seems to like a US sound more than a European one... I didn't use to though, its something i've slowly but surely adapted to...

...I do sometimes get questioning glances from hi-fi stores when I say that some of their well respected gear sounds like junk

 

[arnaud]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tuberoller I'm sorry If that came across as an insult to anyone.I didn't mean it that way.I think the Euro mags tend to favor more Euro gear and there is certainly a "Euro Sound" that is the strong preference of some listeners.In our "audio club" (informal at best) we have three Brits and they all like different sounds.It's wrong for me to generalize but I feel the Euro mags tend to be all the same.The same tendacies exist amongst the US mags as well(except for Listener mag,now gone) and preferences seem to follow a pattern.No offense Intended.

Tuberoller,

Thanks for claryfying your thoughts.

I totally agree with you on that one. Actually, I even think that there are important differences among European countries regarding the typical sound. It's really bad to generalize, and fortunately all audio gear does not sound the same in each country, but I tend to see French made audio (electronic as well as speakers) as very revealing, lean (if not thin) while Bristish stuff is typically a bit more relaxed sounding.
In that regard, some French electronics and speakers are popular in the US because maybe American public does not might brigthness in general?

British and French mags I think are particularly supportive of their national brands!

Arnaud.

 

[Dusty Chalk]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tuberoller It's wrong for me to generalize but I feel the Euro mags tend to be all the same.

I would disagree with this (and no, I'm not getting uppity, and neither did I take your statement as an insult, I'm just disagreeing). What Hi-Fi, in particular, stands out as bad, as compared to Hi-Fi News and Hi-Fi Choice (although I would have to agree with your assessment that these two tend to be very similar; I still find Hi-Fi News to be more empirical).

But then, my tastes tend to run towards the Euro sound, as well, so maybe we're in agreement.

 

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When you guys say European mags you mean mainly British ones I suppose. There are other countries in Europe also

I mean almost any country has at least 1 or two HiFi mags and they are all different. British mags are popular not because they are particularly good or objective but just because they are written in what happened to be the most poular language right now. For people speaking 3-4 languages it will be easy to get many more mags .

So for the US and UK guys: get to this French and German classes quick

 

[Rameish]

Slight OT - if there is such thing as a Euro sound or a British sound then Creek OBH11SE should sound like an X-Can V2 and the 2 should sound like the Corda HA-1. Which is of course utter rubbish.

Krell and Burmeister have more in common (although from different continents).

Then there are high end japanese marques like Accuphase. They tend to sound very different from say Sony. nuf said.

 

[kuma]

Quote:

Originally posted by Rameish Krell and Burmeister have more in common (although from different continents).

I think they both feel *insulted*.

What's common between the two?
Burmies sounding like Krell? nahhhhh......
Only thing common is they are both transistors.