CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE
Dec 7, 2016 at 2:50 PM Post #5,956 of 25,901
Romaz,
On the issue of a USB source sounding better for one reason or another, I trust we all understand it has nothing to do with the 'bits' or their integral transmission. Modern USB interfaces (source and DAC) get this right. We all know what digital errors sound like (pops, snaps, crackles) and they have nothing to do with staging, treble glare, musicality.

Everything we regard as USB deficiencies are all attributed to noise on the USB +5v pins...seeping into the DAC and then mucking with the internal clock timing or radiating around to the analog section. Variables on the source (server, software, psu, etc) just vary the disturbances on +5v of the USB cable.

Asynchronous USB has 100% fidelity from a digital data perspective. What we hear is the effects of low level analog noise.No one source is inherently 'better' from a digital perspective - they may just have reduced effects on the USB power pins.

Yes, these are mitigated by Galvanic isolation, I suppose, but for some reason the noisy ripples on the USB still contaminate the DAC. My evidence is my ears (and brain) with my exaSound and 2qute...both galvanically isolated but both transformed for the better by a regulated battery inserted into the USB interface.

Maybe Rob nailed this issue on the DAVE but maybe not.

Dan

 
Rob Watts tested the 2Qute using a 300A battery, and could tell no sound difference to using the power supply that comes with the 2Qute.
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/749582/chord-electronics-2qute-dac-announced/495#post_11788386
 
You must have extremely sensitive ears and brain.
 
Dec 7, 2016 at 3:09 PM Post #5,957 of 25,901
   
Rob Watts tested the 2Qute using a 300A battery, and could tell no sound difference to using the power supply that comes with the 2Qute.
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/749582/chord-electronics-2qute-dac-announced/495#post_11788386
 
You must have extremely sensitive ears and brain.

 
Several people on the 2Qute thread said that using an up-rated power supply made a noticeable difference, of course the DAVE is a different issue.
 
I suppose a lot depends on how good Rob's hearing is and what headphones he was using, I believe he likes the AQ NH which would not be the most revealing headphones in the World.
 
A lot of us, myself included have never had our hearing checked for high frequency loss and perhaps our ears are not as sensitive as others? 
 
Dec 7, 2016 at 4:34 PM Post #5,958 of 25,901
I'm seeing a lot of posts about SMPS vs LPS with 2Qute and power cords making a difference with DAVE. But I'm also seeing a lot of posts about UpTone LPS-1 making a difference. I know traditionally, we think power supply makes a difference due to delivery of power and noise. But for those who purchased LPS-1 and read designer John Swenson's comments on the UpTone blog and on Computer Audiophile, he feels strongly that power line noise is not the main source of worsening SQ but it's leakage currents that are the main problems. That's why the UpTone LPS-1 was designed in the first place. Of course when Rob Watts powered the 2Qute with batteries, there would be no leakage current. And if Rob Watts just plugged the SMPS of the 2Qute in the same power bar as all his other audio gear, that would also significantly minimize the leakage current so it's possible that Rob Watts didn't hear a difference because his system has minimized the potential for leakage currents. Obviously in a system where there are lots of power filters and audio components, there are many more potentials for leakage currents to affect the sound quality and maybe that's why people's mileage varies with respect to power supplies and power cords. It may have nothing to do with different people's hearing capabilities.
 
Dec 7, 2016 at 4:47 PM Post #5,959 of 25,901
And if Rob Watts just plugged the SMPS of the 2Qute in the same power bar as all his other audio gear, that would also significantly minimize the leakage current so it's possible that Rob Watts didn't hear a difference because his system has minimized the potential for leakage currents.

I don't understand this. Can you say more?
 
Dec 7, 2016 at 5:10 PM Post #5,960 of 25,901
I don't understand this. Can you say more?

 
On of Swenson's posts on leakage current can be found (in the entry from July 4, 2016) posted here:
http://uptoneaudio.com/pages/j-swenson-tech-corner
 
The LPS-1 eliminates the leakage current that can be passed on to the DAC through USB.  I won't do anything about noise the switching mode supply kicks back to other components.  I think systems vary greatly in how sensitive they are to such noise.
 
Dec 7, 2016 at 6:21 PM Post #5,961 of 25,901
Well, like Rob Watts, whose insights are scattered in the Head Fi forums, John Swenson's insights are scattered throughout the Computer Audiophile forums so you'll have to search for them to read them. But here are the highlights I am quoting from him, in addition to what he wrote on the uptone page. They are coming from numerous posts on numerous forums over at Computer Audiophile:
 
But what I am talking about [leakage current] is the loop that forms through one PS to its DC output through a device (usually the negative, but it can be the positive) through an interconnect,(again usually the ground or shield) (digital or audio) to another device, through ITS power supply and back through the AC line to the first power supply. This is a low impedance loop in normally connected systems, usually less than an ohm through everything.
 
What I am talking about is very low impedances, small voltages and small currents. It has nothing to do with earth ground, safety ground etc. It is formed by capacitances in the PS between AC line and DC output generating a voltage between AC line and DC output. When a low impedance connection is formed between the DC output of one PS and the DC output of another PS these voltages form a current flow. Since the loop (I'm calling this a leakage loop) goes through TWO power supplies the waveform of this leakage current depends on the characteristics of both supplies. Thus it is hard to define the characteristics of a single supply, unless you define a "standard" supply to reference all others to.
 
You can get rid of the noise generated by these loops in two ways, block the loop somewhere in the loop (The LPS-1 does this for certain paths), OR decrease the impedance along the loop, if the impedance is lower the NOISE generated by the CURRENT will be less.

To decrease the impedance on the AC you need to have the lowest possible amount of wire, filters, anything else between the outlets you plug your AC cords into. This specifically means NO filters in the power strips, they dramatically increase the leakage currents between boxes plugged into such a strip.

Ideally you should have ONE power strip with EVERYTHING in your audio system plugged into that one strip. By everything I mean everything that has an AC plug that is connected into your audio system somehow. This includes power amps, computers etc.
 
Yep, all AC line to DC power supplies (except LPS-1 and LIO) have leakage current, even ones in pre-amps and power-amps. LPS supplies generally have lower leakage than SMPS supplies so the effects of the LPS in pre/power amps is usually less than the leakage current involving digital systems which usually use SMPS. It is the almost universal use of SMPS in computer systems and the larger leakage current from such supplies which have made leakage current much more important to SQ than the leakage current in the rest of the chain.
 
 
Dec 7, 2016 at 7:09 PM Post #5,962 of 25,901
This is what I understand now:

So AC leakage currents are flowing across the power supply within each component in a system. If there is more than one component powered from the mains and these components are connected to each other for either digital or analogue signals, then they will end up sharing each others AC leakage currents through one or more loops.

The connections that make up each loop each have their own impedances, so each connection will have an effect on the AC leakage currents.

Given the same set of components (e.g. PC and DAVE), connected with the same cables, it's possible to get different performance due to the leakage current solely because the impedance between mains connections can vary. If one system uses a power conditioner and the other system has both mains cables running into the same plug, it's expected the systems will sound different solely because of the difference in impedances seen between the two components' physical connection to the main supply.

Back in the late 90s/early 00s I used to run my DAC, pre-amp, active crossover and 6 power amps from one mains plug. The CD transport was in another plug and optically isolated (AT&T ST fiber optic glass cable, not TOSLINK optical junk). It was definitely better than running all that stuff from individual mains plugs...

So, anyway, roughly the same idea it seems.
 
Dec 7, 2016 at 8:31 PM Post #5,963 of 25,901
Rob Watts tested the 2Qute using a 300A battery, and could tell no sound difference to using the power supply that comes with the 2Qute.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/749582/chord-electronics-2qute-dac-announced/495#post_11788386

You must have extremely sensitive ears and brain.


I run from my DAC right to my mono tube amps. It's true that with my preamp in the path I don't hear the missing details as clearly. With a direct DAC-AMP-Speakers setup I am shocked at the transparency. Anyone's ears can pick up the benefit.

And yes, I've read almost all Rob Watts posts, including this one ...so I did not expect the Teddy Pardo to do anything.
 
Dec 8, 2016 at 1:16 AM Post #5,966 of 25,901
Just got the e-mail I've been waiting for - my black DAVE arrived today and I'm going to pick it up tomorrow.  I'll be using it with Focal Utopia, mRendu, sonicTransporter, PS Audio PerfectWave power regenerator, Shunyata Alpha Digital Zitron power cord, Roon software, and eventually w/ DHC prion cables if they ever ship - stock until then since my black dragons are balanced.
 
It will be interesting to see how my new set up compares to my set up last year (HD800S, Rag / Yggy, black dragon interconnects and cables, stock power cable and no power regeneration).  I've already incorporated a few elements but I was waiting on DAVE before putting everything together.  Tomorrow should be fun assuming DAVE turns on when I hit the switch!
 
Dec 8, 2016 at 1:47 AM Post #5,967 of 25,901
  Just got the e-mail I've been waiting for - my black DAVE arrived today and I'm going to pick it up tomorrow.  I'll be using it with Focal Utopia, mRendu, sonicTransporter, PS Audio PerfectWave power regenerator, Shunyata Alpha Digital Zitron power cord, Roon software, and eventually w/ DHC prion cables if they ever ship - stock until then since my black dragons are balanced.
 
It will be interesting to see how my new set up compares to my set up last year (HD800S, Rag / Yggy, black dragon interconnects and cables, stock power cable and no power regeneration).  I've already incorporated a few elements but I was waiting on DAVE before putting everything together.  Tomorrow should be fun assuming DAVE turns on when I hit the switch!

You have a wonderful setup.  I foresee late nights and not much sleep for you in the coming days.  Congratulations!
 
Dec 8, 2016 at 2:19 AM Post #5,968 of 25,901
  Well, like Rob Watts, whose insights are scattered in the Head Fi forums, John Swenson's insights are scattered throughout the Computer Audiophile forums so you'll have to search for them to read them. But here are the highlights I am quoting from him, in addition to what he wrote on the uptone page. They are coming from numerous posts on numerous forums over at Computer Audiophile:
 
But what I am talking about [leakage current] is the loop that forms through one PS to its DC output through a device (usually the negative, but it can be the positive) through an interconnect,(again usually the ground or shield) (digital or audio) to another device, through ITS power supply and back through the AC line to the first power supply. This is a low impedance loop in normally connected systems, usually less than an ohm through everything.
 
What I am talking about is very low impedances, small voltages and small currents. It has nothing to do with earth ground, safety ground etc. It is formed by capacitances in the PS between AC line and DC output generating a voltage between AC line and DC output. When a low impedance connection is formed between the DC output of one PS and the DC output of another PS these voltages form a current flow. Since the loop (I'm calling this a leakage loop) goes through TWO power supplies the waveform of this leakage current depends on the characteristics of both supplies. Thus it is hard to define the characteristics of a single supply, unless you define a "standard" supply to reference all others to.
 
You can get rid of the noise generated by these loops in two ways, block the loop somewhere in the loop (The LPS-1 does this for certain paths), OR decrease the impedance along the loop, if the impedance is lower the NOISE generated by the CURRENT will be less.

To decrease the impedance on the AC you need to have the lowest possible amount of wire, filters, anything else between the outlets you plug your AC cords into. This specifically means NO filters in the power strips, they dramatically increase the leakage currents between boxes plugged into such a strip.

Ideally you should have ONE power strip with EVERYTHING in your audio system plugged into that one strip. By everything I mean everything that has an AC plug that is connected into your audio system somehow. This includes power amps, computers etc.
 
Yep, all AC line to DC power supplies (except LPS-1 and LIO) have leakage current, even ones in pre-amps and power-amps. LPS supplies generally have lower leakage than SMPS supplies so the effects of the LPS in pre/power amps is usually less than the leakage current involving digital systems which usually use SMPS. It is the almost universal use of SMPS in computer systems and the larger leakage current from such supplies which have made leakage current much more important to SQ than the leakage current in the rest of the chain.
 

John Swenson said you could also break this ground loop (leakage current) via galvanic isolation from one component to the next.  For example, if there was galvanic isolation between microRendu and DAVE at the USB cable, then it wouldn't matter if microRendu was plugged into ground.  John Swenson and Alex Crespi will soon be releasing the new "Iso Regen" which is an upgraded version of their USB Regen that includes a better clock and galvanic isolation specifically for this reason.
 
As we know, DAVE already has galvanic isolation and I have found it to be excellent.  I had an Intona Industrial USB Isolator at my disposal for a few days and whether it was in my chain or not, it made no difference to SQ.  With the DAVE, I don't think leakage current is an issue.
 
Dec 8, 2016 at 2:26 AM Post #5,969 of 25,901
Dear Rob

For Naim amplifier owners, can I re-confirm with that you that Dave has signal earth connected to mains earth (therefore providing Signal grounding)?

How is this connected in Dave, (I can't see it from the internal pictures of Dave)
 
 
Regards
 
Dec 8, 2016 at 2:43 AM Post #5,970 of 25,901
  You don't hang about do you? :wink:
 
How does the SotM compare with the mR when both driven by a lesser supply than the SR7? Like the LPS-1 for example.
 
How do you have the software configured to drive the SotM? As a HQP+NAA user, with broad intention to add Roon one day, it's easy with the mR because it is both HPQ-ready and Roon-ready, so it just works. But not obvious how the same 2 apps would drive the SotM.     
 
EDIT: On further searching, looks like SOtM can handle both HQP and Roon

Regardless of PSU used, the SOtM is better but the gap is bigger with the Paul Hynes.
 
SOtM has suggested that while 7V will drive the sMS-200 adequately (and it does), 9V sounds better and the Paul Hynes SR7 is driving the sMS-200 at 9V and so this could be furthering the gap.
 
The sMS-200 has an identical feature set as the mR and so you can use them both in exactly the same way.  In fact, there is no learning curve going from one to the other.  As you know, Roon+HQP had become my defacto standard in my system.  I'm not sure what has changed (possibly related to the most recent Roon upgrade) but a recent comparison of Roon vs Roon+HQP revealed that Roon by itself is now sounding better and so I have abandoned HQP for now.  Roon+HQP is somehow sounding shallower than Roon by itself.  I will have to do further tests when I have time but I am liking the simplicity of just dealing with Roon.
 

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